Please get rid of infiltrator or get rid of cloak

[bigd]

Its getting real annoying seeing them decloack, kill, and recloak. They get the most kills in game because they can quickly cloak after a kill. Its crazy how they can carry assault rifles, smg, and other automatic weapons and having the ability to cloak. They should only be able to use knife, sniper rifle, and a handgun. The battlefield is literally turning into an infiltrator fest. You cant even flank the enemy. All the sudden you see sniper rounds coming at you from all directions. If you manage to get through all those rounds, which you most likely wont, you're greeted by an infiltrator that decloaks behind you and gun you down with an SMG as you're trying to regain shield.

[melting is cold]

Black_Fox の投稿を引用：

Mora の投稿を引用：

Planes are not infantry, but nonetheless need specific counters. Unless you've got designated AA, you're gonna have trouble bringing them down (unless you are a crack shot with the deci, of course). And ultimately, one of the best 'lethal' counters (i.e not just getting them to leave, repair and return) is getting in your own plane and dogfighting. Point still stands to show how specific counters are necessary in a lot of the game.

Heavy shield absolutely covers the head. And yes, you can prepare for infiltrators. You just need to use you head more than simply seeing and gunning down a player. What is the flow of combat? Potential flanking areas? Did you just hear them cloak? What have they tried before? Is the point contested?

That's preparing for infiltrators. And it works on every class, but infiltrator forces you to rely on these cues instead of them being auxiliary to sight. While we're at it, I might as well mention infiltrators are by no means truly invisible, and fairly easy to see if not crouchwalking. Fighting infiltrators (and playing them) requires fairly solid map knowledge to be done effectively.

The inflitrator doesn't counter any class really. In fact, a skilled player who can sneak up on you as any other class is drastically more scary than an infiltrator. It simply makes it easier to get that advantage in the first place through the cloak. I'd actually argue against skilled players every other class has a better chance of getting the jump on them as the other classes lack the distinctive uncloak noise. Go for a decent flank, maybe an odd entrypoint as LA, and you can wreak far more havoc than an infiltrator.

If you are getting shot by snipers, then you are right, there really is no counter besides being an infiltrator. However, snipers are only a nuisance unless very good (or on specific maps). They don't contribute to the fight at all, and rarely have an effect on the outcome of battle. And they can be avoided, with good positioning and movement.

Yes, vehicles need specific counters... and beside MAXes, which other class needs specializied equipment to be countered efficiently? Medics, LAs ,Engineers, Heavies? (beside the resist shield, the headshot damage multiplier chomps the shield away fast).

That's the whole point: You need to buy certain equipment to counter one specific infantry class - in contrast to the four others that can be taken down without spending anything (in theory)

And yes, you have to be aware of the situation, that's a general ability needed in every PvP game. The difference for infiltrators is: Cloaked Infiltrators aren't marked by friendlies, at a certain distance it's very hard to see the flimmering graphics and in big battles it's not uncommon for most people to just not recognize it at all.

This makes it easier to sneak around for an Infiltrator than lets say a LA - you spot the LA and he's marked, you spot an infiltrator, he goes invisible and is gone. Sniping is a whole other point, that is what make the class unique (but also can be done/countered with DMRs)

What I meant are CQC Infiltrators with sniper or scoutrifles that aim at your head, uncloak, shot and then continue. Giving Sniper rifles a min. range for max DMG could help with that

Of course you could have prevented that with jumping around like a rabbit or covering a whole area in motion sensors, but who does that constantly?

You just defeated your own argument? That's like saying I could have won that engagement, but I didn't hit my headshots. It's your own fault, not your opponents.

Nope, I actually didn't - or do you move around jumping all the time in the game and cover whole bases in motion sensors constantly?
To use a metaphor: We can totally avoid having traffic accident, we just need drivers to stop every 10 meter to make sure there aren't pedestrians

Error3000 の投稿を引用：

Black_Fox の投稿を引用：

And of course, you just have to shoot at the infiltrator like any other class... except that you can spot other classes meters away and prepare to fight them.

I will say something that may enlighten you but you realise you can still see infiltrators if they are close to you right? sure they are not glowing but you can see distorted air and if you are using the darklight you will easily spot them, then again since using your eyes is I imagine a "specific counter" this shouldnt be necessary, oh right you can use your ears to hear the infiltrators when the decloak/cloak to rest/kill someone else, then again its also specific counter, well ♥♥♥♥

Yeah, if they are CLOSE to you. And the Flashlight hasn't even nearly enough range to counter them on open spaces. You might want to say "but in buildings" now - nope, the flashlight is so bright that it outshines the coloured outlines.

And the distorted air is 10 times harder to see if they are not moving infront of the horizon or things with heavy contrast to the ground (house walls). Using ears is also a great idea... to bad good infiltrators tend to not stand around waiting to be found. You know there is one, but chances are high that you get shot in the back.
__________________________

Overall it's the class that requires a lot more to fight off than any other, being it equipment to spot them, having to pay extra attention in big fights just for them or the need for a precision rifle.
What's the term for a class that needs way more to be taken down than all the others? (rethorical question) [/quote]

Heavies need specialised techniques to take down. While it is not necessarily equipment, if you charge heavies chances are you are going to lose. Thus they also make you play differently from standard. There's also the argument to be had that LA's who use their jetpack to reach rooftops and harass infantry from there also need a specific counter (i.e being one yourself). The same can be applied to medic. If you are assaulting an enemy point which is mostly medics and heavies, you will need medics to out attrition your opponent, unless you can seriously brute force the point.

You don't need any equipment to take down infilitrators - it just makes it easier. The same way you can beat a heavy in a fair 1v1 - if you can shoot well. Most players do not need the suggestions I give - I for one certainly don't.

Awareness always important - as is target acquisition. Think of it like this: If any other enemy surprises you, it is harder for you to kill them than an infiltrator. My point is, if you cannot snap and kill enemies who surprise you - regardless of class - you are going to lose to infiltrators, who crutch on their ability to surprise you.

This is all without considering the dead giveaway uncloak noise which allows you to react much faster to them than any other enemy in the game (unless they are a new player who spots you before firing).

Here's the thing about a good infiltrator - if he plays his cards right, he should never be possibly visible to you before within kill distance. As an infiltrator, you cannot rely on your opponent missing the distinctive distortion effect, and must limit sight lines to approach effectively. But a player that does this with any other class will have the same effect, because you could not spot them in transit either. If you are seriously spotting infiltrators and still being snuck up on...

Close range sniping requires immense skill to be truly effective, and is constantly very dangerous to the user. Tracking someones head at close range is very difficult, and being stationary/out of cover to do so for longer than ~ five seconds is going to get you killed. Of course, if they are camping a doorway with a flat bit of ground in front of them it is significantly easier, but this can be punished with prefiring (particularly if using a high magazine LMG). I really do not think it is as easy as you say it is. Pick up a bolty and give it a go.

You did at least put a serious hole in your argument - you admitted to being entirely capable of avoiding the situation and simply not doing it.

To counter your metaphor, it is more like saying 'I hit a pedestrian, but it wasn't my fault as I am not on the look out for pedestrians constantly'

Everyone is not necessarily on the lookout for pedestrians, but at crossings and places of high foot traffic you should , regardless of whether you are.

But that's besides the point. The visibility of infils is subjective, which is why I've tried to avoid talking about it. Frankly, it is entirely a problem with yourself if you cannot see moving infiltrators - I can just fine. Whether this is a settings thing, practice, or just the difference between people I have no idea.

Your point about how detectable infiltrators are audibly has no substance. What does 'waiting around to be found' mean? Infiltrators always make a noise when cloaking and uncloaking, and it is very obvious. If you know there is one, prepare. Cover your back, get into an advantageous position, prefire the door. Or just wait until they uncloak, snap to them, and dome the stealthy filth. Better yet, get into a position that has very predictable pathways, then wait. They either engage you and you outgun them because you are any other class and are more durable or they disengage - which requires them to uncloak to recharge before reengaging you, giving you another way of hunting them down.

They don't need anything special to counter them. They need practice. Almost everything I suggest (that isn't a piece of equipment) will work just as (sometimes more) effectively against non infiltrators. Combining all the skills different classes teach you (stealth, surprise and choosing engagements as Infiltrator, positioning, flanking and movement from LA's, battle flow and gunplay as a Heavy, etc) is what truly separates a skilled from an unskilled player.

[Lord Eistee]

Crafty の投稿を引用：

Error3000 の投稿を引用：

yea if only there was a gadget that disrupts cloak when cloaker is near it so to say, oh wait, the flashlight

I think there needs to be a class designated gadget for it though, even if they removed the light.

A "rock/paper/scissors" method for the classes would work a lot better. Kind of like how in TF2 there are class specific methods for dealing with Spies. While the other classes can focus on their strengths.

With the flashlight, you're basically counting on players swaping out their attachment. You can't even tell if friendly players are actively looking for a cloaked enemy or not. Its just not as intuitive in terms of teamplay over someone placing a gadget down on the ground or whatever.


I also don't think a counter for a core gameplay mechanic such as cloaking should have to be countered from buying attachments using crets for literally every gun in the game. It leads to issues where, no one wants to spend their crets on the attachment which leads to no one using the attachment to counter cloaked enemies, which leads to people complaining about it on the forum.

I only see ''Meh, I'm too bad for this. THIZ NEEDS TOH CHANGE FOR BALANSE!!!''

Mora の投稿を引用：

Black_Fox の投稿を引用：

Yes, vehicles need specific counters... and beside MAXes, which other class needs specializied equipment to be countered efficiently? Medics, LAs ,Engineers, Heavies? (beside the resist shield, the headshot damage multiplier chomps the shield away fast).

That's the whole point: You need to buy certain equipment to counter one specific infantry class - in contrast to the four others that can be taken down without spending anything (in theory)

And yes, you have to be aware of the situation, that's a general ability needed in every PvP game. The difference for infiltrators is: Cloaked Infiltrators aren't marked by friendlies, at a certain distance it's very hard to see the flimmering graphics and in big battles it's not uncommon for most people to just not recognize it at all.

This makes it easier to sneak around for an Infiltrator than lets say a LA - you spot the LA and he's marked, you spot an infiltrator, he goes invisible and is gone. Sniping is a whole other point, that is what make the class unique (but also can be done/countered with DMRs)

What I meant are CQC Infiltrators with sniper or scoutrifles that aim at your head, uncloak, shot and then continue. Giving Sniper rifles a min. range for max DMG could help with that





You just defeated your own argument? That's like saying I could have won that engagement, but I didn't hit my headshots. It's your own fault, not your opponents.

Nope, I actually didn't - or do you move around jumping all the time in the game and cover whole bases in motion sensors constantly?
To use a metaphor: We can totally avoid having traffic accident, we just need drivers to stop every 10 meter to make sure there aren't pedestrians

Error3000 の投稿を引用：

I will say something that may enlighten you but you realise you can still see infiltrators if they are close to you right? sure they are not glowing but you can see distorted air and if you are using the darklight you will easily spot them, then again since using your eyes is I imagine a "specific counter" this shouldnt be necessary, oh right you can use your ears to hear the infiltrators when the decloak/cloak to rest/kill someone else, then again its also specific counter, well ♥♥♥♥

Yeah, if they are CLOSE to you. And the Flashlight hasn't even nearly enough range to counter them on open spaces. You might want to say "but in buildings" now - nope, the flashlight is so bright that it outshines the coloured outlines.

And the distorted air is 10 times harder to see if they are not moving infront of the horizon or things with heavy contrast to the ground (house walls). Using ears is also a great idea... to bad good infiltrators tend to not stand around waiting to be found. You know there is one, but chances are high that you get shot in the back.
__________________________

Overall it's the class that requires a lot more to fight off than any other, being it equipment to spot them, having to pay extra attention in big fights just for them or the need for a precision rifle.
What's the term for a class that needs way more to be taken down than all the others? (rethorical question)

Heavies need specialised techniques to take down. While it is not necessarily equipment, if you charge heavies chances are you are going to lose. Thus they also make you play differently from standard. There's also the argument to be had that LA's who use their jetpack to reach rooftops and harass infantry from there also need a specific counter (i.e being one yourself). The same can be applied to medic. If you are assaulting an enemy point which is mostly medics and heavies, you will need medics to out attrition your opponent, unless you can seriously brute force the point.

You don't need any equipment to take down infilitrators - it just makes it easier. The same way you can beat a heavy in a fair 1v1 - if you can shoot well. Most players do not need the suggestions I give - I for one certainly don't.

Awareness always important - as is target acquisition. Think of it like this: If any other enemy surprises you, it is harder for you to kill them than an infiltrator. My point is, if you cannot snap and kill enemies who surprise you - regardless of class - you are going to lose to infiltrators, who crutch on their ability to surprise you.

This is all without considering the dead giveaway uncloak noise which allows you to react much faster to them than any other enemy in the game (unless they are a new player who spots you before firing).

Here's the thing about a good infiltrator - if he plays his cards right, he should never be possibly visible to you before within kill distance. As an infiltrator, you cannot rely on your opponent missing the distinctive distortion effect, and must limit sight lines to approach effectively. But a player that does this with any other class will have the same effect, because you could not spot them in transit either. If you are seriously spotting infiltrators and still being snuck up on...

Close range sniping requires immense skill to be truly effective, and is constantly very dangerous to the user. Tracking someones head at close range is very difficult, and being stationary/out of cover to do so for longer than ~ five seconds is going to get you killed. Of course, if they are camping a doorway with a flat bit of ground in front of them it is significantly easier, but this can be punished with prefiring (particularly if using a high magazine LMG). I really do not think it is as easy as you say it is. Pick up a bolty and give it a go.

You did at least put a serious hole in your argument - you admitted to being entirely capable of avoiding the situation and simply not doing it.

To counter your metaphor, it is more like saying 'I hit a pedestrian, but it wasn't my fault as I am not on the look out for pedestrians constantly'

Everyone is not necessarily on the lookout for pedestrians, but at crossings and places of high foot traffic you should , regardless of whether you are.

But that's besides the point. The visibility of infils is subjective, which is why I've tried to avoid talking about it. Frankly, it is entirely a problem with yourself if you cannot see moving infiltrators - I can just fine. Whether this is a settings thing, practice, or just the difference between people I have no idea.

Your point about how detectable infiltrators are audibly has no substance. What does 'waiting around to be found' mean? Infiltrators always make a noise when cloaking and uncloaking, and it is very obvious. If you know there is one, prepare. Cover your back, get into an advantageous position, prefire the door. Or just wait until they uncloak, snap to them, and dome the stealthy filth. Better yet, get into a position that has very predictable pathways, then wait. They either engage you and you outgun them because you are any other class and are more durable or they disengage - which requires them to uncloak to recharge before reengaging you, giving you another way of hunting them down.

They don't need anything special to counter them. They need practice. Almost everything I suggest (that isn't a piece of equipment) will work just as (sometimes more) effectively against non infiltrators. Combining all the skills different classes teach you (stealth, surprise and choosing engagements as Infiltrator, positioning, flanking and movement from LA's, battle flow and gunplay as a Heavy, etc) is what truly separates a skilled from an unskilled player. [/quote]


You sir, are just amazing. Well written!

[bigd]

If you're in a major battle with all the explosions, sounds from weapons being fired, maxes weapons being loud as hell, harassers trying to run you over, you will not hear little footsteps from infiltrators. People talking as if every battle zone is peacefully quiet. Nobody has time to sit and listen to infiltrators footsteps. If you do that, you're a sitting target for other players to pick you off in the fast pace battlefield.

[Pervy]

bigd の投稿を引用：

If you're in a major battle with all the explosions, sounds from weapons being fired, maxes weapons being loud as hell, harassers trying to run you over, you will not hear little footsteps from infiltrators. People talking as if every battle zone is peacefully quiet. Nobody has time to sit and listen to infiltrators footsteps. If you do that, you're a sitting target for other players to pick you off in the fast pace battlefield.

You might not hear foot steps but you sure as hell is going to hear the uncloak.

[Kalvix]

Drakkahn の投稿を引用：

bigd の投稿を引用：

If you're in a major battle with all the explosions, sounds from weapons being fired, maxes weapons being loud as hell, harassers trying to run you over, you will not hear little footsteps from infiltrators. People talking as if every battle zone is peacefully quiet. Nobody has time to sit and listen to infiltrators footsteps. If you do that, you're a sitting target for other players to pick you off in the fast pace battlefield.

You might not hear foot steps but you sure as hell is going to hear the uncloak.

Yes, but when you hear that you're dead if you are the person they are attacking. The infiltrator needs to be a real idiot for you to not as the only way would be

A. They unstealth directly in front of you while you are aiming your gun

B. They unstealth not in front of you but decided to not have their gun over your head and can't aim.

[bigd]

Drakkahn の投稿を引用：

bigd の投稿を引用：

If you're in a major battle with all the explosions, sounds from weapons being fired, maxes weapons being loud as hell, harassers trying to run you over, you will not hear little footsteps from infiltrators. People talking as if every battle zone is peacefully quiet. Nobody has time to sit and listen to infiltrators footsteps. If you do that, you're a sitting target for other players to pick you off in the fast pace battlefield.

You might not hear foot steps but you sure as hell is going to hear the uncloak.

If you hear the uncloak sound, you're dead. If they manage not to kill you, they might as well change class all together. I left a battle where the building that has 4 air vehicle spawn platform was filled with infiltrators. They have stalker cloak and equip with 1 hit knife in crouch position camping corners waiting for anybody to come to second and third floor. They're just running around unclocking 1 stab in the back and recloak. How I know? My kill came followed him around for the next couple of secs as they was just cloaking and recloaking.

[Black_Fox]

Just played today - constantly getting killed by wanna be predators made it impossible to play the game in a flow. In one fight both sides were literally crippled by hunting infiltrators. Our infiltrators bullied them and we had to constantly had to check every corner--> Barely any firefight at all. I don't work at Daybreak, but I think this isn't the intended gameplay.

We could continue turning in circles with the pros and cons of the cloaking, in the end every individual player decides to play or not to play. I for myself say "F this game" and probably take a long vaccation from it (replaying Sniper Elite, at least there it is the intended gameplay)

[Pervy]

Kalvix の投稿を引用：

Drakkahn の投稿を引用：

You might not hear foot steps but you sure as hell is going to hear the uncloak.

Yes, but when you hear that you're dead if you are the person they are attacking. The infiltrator needs to be a real idiot for you to not as the only way would be

A. They unstealth directly in front of you while you are aiming your gun

B. They unstealth not in front of you but decided to not have their gun over your head and can't aim.

Smg cloaks dont last forever, and those will shot off and that people can hear and know beware.
Unless we are talking about stalkers thats a whole different can of worms.

[Pervy]

bigd の投稿を引用：

Drakkahn の投稿を引用：

You might not hear foot steps but you sure as hell is going to hear the uncloak.

If you hear the uncloak sound, you're dead. If they manage not to kill you, they might as well change class all together. I left a battle where the building that has 4 air vehicle spawn platform was filled with infiltrators. They have stalker cloak and equip with 1 hit knife in crouch position camping corners waiting for anybody to come to second and third floor. They're just running around unclocking 1 stab in the back and recloak. How I know? My kill came followed him around for the next couple of secs as they was just cloaking and recloaking.

They have to turn on those power knifes and shot off the cloak, you can hear both.
if they dont have to turn it on first you can hear it if you are aware of there sounds.

Also if people dont hear the power knife sound, they should die for that.

[Error3000]

Drakkahn の投稿を引用：

Also if people dont hear the power knife sound, they should die for that.

*runs up behind you with BRRRRRRRRRRRRRR knife*

[Pervy]

Error3000 の投稿を引用：

Drakkahn の投稿を引用：

Also if people dont hear the power knife sound, they should die for that.

*runs up behind you with BRRRRRRRRRRRRRR knife*

If it was on i would 180, press f and unload the shotgun.
If its not on i might be able to still 180 but still die.

[Kalvix]

Drakkahn の投稿を引用：

Error3000 の投稿を引用：

*runs up behind you with BRRRRRRRRRRRRRR knife*

If it was on i would 180, press f and unload the shotgun.
If its not on i might be able to still 180 but still die.

You know if you hold down the melee button you bring out the knife as a full time weapon and it attacks much faster right?

[Pervy]

Kalvix の投稿を引用：

Drakkahn の投稿を引用：

If it was on i would 180, press f and unload the shotgun.
If its not on i might be able to still 180 but still die.

You know if you hold down the melee button you bring out the knife as a full time weapon and it attacks much faster right?

you know you can just press - and you pull it out and hold it?
That also works on NSO maxes like the only max that can do this.

[Lord Eistee]

The only thing I hear in this thread are salty tears and false accusations. Gitgud and overcome your unawareness. Dunno If you cant aim properly, but me as a Medic, I can deal with those stalker cloaker pretty much effortless, even those 1-hit tryhards.

[Pervy]

Lord_Eistee の投稿を引用：

The only thing I hear in this thread are salty tears and false accusations. Gitgud and overcome your unawareness. Dunno If you cant aim properly, but me as a Medic, I can deal with those stalker cloaker pretty much effortless, even those 1-hit tryhards.

+1