Helicopters are OP

[Toleran]

I get that they are this way for perhaps game-balancing reasons, but they really do seem overpowered and way too difficult to kill. IRL, almost anything will bring down a chopper, especially a steady stream of 12.7mm

In this game, taking down a copter, even with multiple units, starts to resemble a Star Trek capital ship getting peppered with torpedo after torpedo with no quick death. No joke, at one point I and 3 other aircraft were pumping round after round into a dying chopper -- that really breaks what the unit is pretending to be. Maybe make them more fragile and less expensive/capable? Right now, it's like a flying corvette, and dies less quickly than one.

[Darloth]

Originally posted by corpse:

Plus you only get 2 good Air to Air missiles which are easy flare offs.

You have the option to not take the heavy ones - they're mostly just better at longer ranges.
Given that helicopters are hard to kill from range, I usually take the 4x shorter range IR missiles, because from that range they're a lot harder to flare, and you can reliably kill two or three aircraft that are bold enough to get within 5km with them.

One thing radar (and optical!) missiles will do against an AI helicopter is make them break off an attack run and dodge, which can be worth doing even if you know the missile won't hit because it'll mess up their attack run on a friendly convoy, or sometimes make them turn away so you can get closer.

[Meemai]

Lynchpins are the way to blow Chicanes up quickly! Strafe the Chicane, shoot them from as close as you can safely, without getting closer than 2km (or the MG turret will hit you). A small Lynchpin salvo tends to be enough to leave them impaired, if not just outright destroy them.

Also, when you approach the Chicane, throttle down and pre-flare at around 5km range.

[M Lonsdale]

The Chicanes are prone to Radar-guided weaponry, and a good pilot would be forced to hug the floor, leaving IR and Optical missiles, if you sneak up behind the Chicane so it can't gun you, its as good as dead. Just dont do it as a Ifrit as the Chicane still has decent IR, SRAA Missiles that you cannot dodge at short range.

Alternatively if you get really angry you can cut it's tail off with little effort or just nuke it if your that pissed off, watching a helicopter get lit up by the ducking sun is always funny to watch

[Meemai]

Trying to get behind a helicopter is somewhat... hard though, they are helicopters, they can turn in the spot in a few instants unless they are going really really fast in a forward direction at that given time.

[Shady]

Originally posted by Meemai:

Trying to get behind a helicopter is somewhat... hard though, they are helicopters, they can turn in the spot in a few instants unless they are going really really fast in a forward direction at that given time.

If its AI they dont tend to rotate quickly if you sneak up behind them, players are players so theyll 9/10 times pull a wacky maneuver to return fire quick and theres not really much you can do except be going fast so youll just blow past them

[ImG]

git gud

[Puppet Master 7 & 3/4ths on Sony]

The Chicane is by no means unkillable but it definitely feels unreasonably difficult to take down, especially in the lower-intensity ops like Altercation where you're limited to the smaller and shorter-ranged weapons. They easily flare off the IRs, and your best bet is either to go guns on them (dangerous as hell) or hit them with Lynchpins, but the problem with the Lynchpins is that if you're not firing from a forward or rear aspect on a moving helo there's a good chance the missiles will miss since optically-guided systems don't generally lead worth a damn.

RE: their durability, something that has annoyed me extensively is ending up trading with them, where I'll nail them with a couple of Lynchpins or the like that cripples them but I catch a Fox 2 that is just bound and determine to avenge it's launcher in spite of me going cold, cutting throttle and dumping half my flares. No joke, I blew the tail off one and it STILL got an IR launch on me as it spiraled to the ground (I wish I had Shadowplay up when that happened, I felt ROBBED). Pretty sure that one's just an AI moment though, honestly.

I notice a lot of times they survive even crashing for a bit and kind of glitch out on the terrain for a while before the game gives up and declares them dead. Seems janky.

I don't want to call them overpowered but I definitely feel like the aught to be looked at, at least in the AI's hands. I can't speak for players, esp given the thing is rather difficult to fly when you're a meatbag and not the computer LOL

[Bandit_Radio]

Originally posted by Toleran:

Admittedly my complaining is also noob/skill-based potentially, but still, the helicopters are a bit too ninja-like for my tastes.

They need a few TYPES of helicopters instead of pushing everything into one basket.

One (Chicane) that's the RAH-66 in design: Has solid stealth, has a small internal payload, with the option of sticking external on at the sacrifice of stealth against RADAR. Some sensor capabilities, some lasing capabilities for bombs so other planes can drop and punch out. Ability to target for other aircraft (Darkstars, etc) so they can punch bombs out far outside high-altitude threat rings.

One (HOKUM-B / KA-52 style) good recon, can lase for other aircraft, can use jammers. No stealth, but very sophisticated with sensors, RADAR, light EW, maybe some indirect fire capability to guide a munition over a hill (TV operated / coordinate?). Some decent AA capabilities.

One AH-64 / MI-28 style. Armored. Pure bred attack helicopter, does the things against the ground. Lots of mid-to-high-performance ground attack payloads, maybe an option for some unconventional payloads (75mm CTAS cannon on a ball mount built in to the aircraft underneath?). Obviously an IR / RADAR magnet with no form of organic mitigation besides flares / chaff.

Three distinct play styles to deal with, all susceptible to fast movers in the right / wrong situation.

[Zeri]

Originally posted by Bandit_Radio:

Originally posted by Toleran:

Admittedly my complaining is also noob/skill-based potentially, but still, the helicopters are a bit too ninja-like for my tastes.

They need a few TYPES of helicopters instead of pushing everything into one basket.
(...)
Three distinct play styles to deal with, all susceptible to fast movers in the right / wrong situation.

I think they could get away with just two, making the Chicane recon/stealth/EWAR for the "air defense penetration" helicopter, and the other the armored attack helicopter for just brute-forcing ground attack. Or, at least, they could *start* with adding the second variety and then see if the Chicane is sufficiently focused after that or not.

[Bandit_Radio]

Originally posted by Zeri:

Originally posted by Bandit_Radio:

They need a few TYPES of helicopters instead of pushing everything into one basket.
(...)
Three distinct play styles to deal with, all susceptible to fast movers in the right / wrong situation.

I think they could get away with just two, making the Chicane recon/stealth/EWAR for the "air defense penetration" helicopter, and the other the armored attack helicopter for just brute-forcing ground attack. Or, at least, they could *start* with adding the second variety and then see if the Chicane is sufficiently focused after that or not.

My big problem is how flat the playing is with the Chicane, plus how insanely capable they can be in all roles which discourages teamwork and limits the ♥♥♥♥ out of helicopter gameplay loops and tactics variety. It, by itself, isn't a particularly sophisticated / capable sensing platform, and there aren't any mechanics that allow second-party lasing / weapons handoff yet. But that doesn't stop it from trying to "do it all" from what is obviously based on the RAH-66.. and should be a pretty dedicated recon / light attack helo.

Granted, the game is still in the works, but the helicopter functionality is bland and doesn't have enough nuance to choose it over the Ifirit beyond literally "just flying a helicopter". In every way it actually really underperforms, and is slow as ♥♥♥♥. For the cost, payload, and speed.. the return isn't really there. People that are having issues kiling Chicane's.. brother that's all skill issue and tactics.

Breaking it up into three at least allows the roles to mature, brings balance to the platforms, and makes the gameplay generally more intersting. For example:

-Chicane could spot for the "Super HOKUM", and do handoff with munitions better than TV guidance (something that could be pushed to a copilot if we get multi-crew) that require a direct laze. Using top rotor camera, keeps most of aircraft concealed with terrain while designating targets.

-Chicane validates approach and supports the attack of the "Super HAVOC/LONGBOW", with light (self-protection) EW capabilities to help protect against SPAAGs and other AA platforms.

What needs to be added are functional displays for optics (and manipulation), and adding things that are unique like drone payloads, top-rotor sensors, and EW munitions that grant an effect for a limited amount of time to further incentivize play to defeat IAD networks

-Super HOKUM senses ground targets, RADAR energy and maps their last locations based on last sensing for team. Has fantastic cameras, can RADAR lock and guide munitions at distance, and works with the Chicane to toss munitions over terrain / drones / EW rounds. Add in AI coordination for artillery functions / spot for AI controlled IDF?

-HOKUM has medium AA payloads for the defense of the helicopter wing, potentially some soft / hardkill point defense systems to help with penetration flights at the cost of offensive payloads.

Obvious what our HAVOC / APACHE analog would do. The big appeal of the Chicane would be that dedicated, functional stealth aircraft.

If it's just two birds, what you'll get is the singular tactic format that requires little flexibility in application:

Chicane spots / preps the airspace, Attack Helo punches, rinse and repeat. The dynamics gets limited quickly, and doesn't give players many options to solve problems... reducing the quality of gameplay.

Again, just an opinion.

[JustaRedKia]

One easy trick makes all Chicane users very pissy https://youtu.be/UQvGWtJJAsg?si=Ec2kuDxBXADKVL-8

[LS-33 "Wraith"]

They are adding a larger tilt rotor gunship, its like and Osprey and a AC-130 had a baby with a chinook as grandparent.

[bigulator]

It's such a pain to fly tho. I gave that first Chicane mission like 15 tries and had to quit because I could not keep up with the AI.

[bigulator]

its hard even with the auto hover mode

[LS-33 "Wraith"]

Originally posted by bigulator:

its hard even with the auto hover mode

To me its annoying to use auto hover, slows you too much