Italian spearmen are OP

[spookniggu]

Just need to spit out some rage. I've never been angry with a total war game but I just ended up ragequitting halfway through a battle. I'm playing Rome as the house of julia and I'm playing on legendary difficulty.

Most fights are fairly easy to do. As a matter of fact I feel legendary is easier in comparison to what we had on Shogun 2, which was really challenging. I had a balanced army of principes, hastati, triarii, equites, velites and leves, opposing an army with spearmen alone.

I start off with two forces, one being a flanking force of principes. My triarii take on their general and my hastati protect my leves and velites that start skirmishing to break their formation and tire them out.

First of their cavalry general charges head-on to my triarii and they don't suffer any losses to charging in a spear formation. I win the fight with 90 of my 160 triarii left to fight. At the time my principes had already flanked their main body.

One maniple keeps busy a clustered up force of spearmen and I use the other maniplulus to kick-in the combat flanking bonus. They start losing numbers slowly. My velites did what they were meant to do with the expected results, luring their army far away unable to support their main body. I send my triarii in to attack a group of spearmen head-on and once the first group routes and leave my other three maniplulus ready to engage in another fight I use them to flank that group.

More italian spearmen start clustering up. Now for some reason despite the fact my units are better and it's swords versus spears it's my army losing the battle decisively. I try to flank them in every way possible. They're at a great disadvantage. Their moral was low in the first place since they were in double-time stance when I intercepted them.

I had a bunch of combat modifiers backing me up yet my units lose.

I lose, and they continue to march to the city they planned to attack in the first place. I protect them with a garrison and small army backing that up of a general with about two velites. I have my rorarii and we're fighting in a town map. There's several roads so I play it strategically.

I block off two roads looking what direction they were headed. On an intersection I place down two units, covering two roads. They had to go either way to get towards the single control point. This way if they'd attack either I could use the other to breath in their necks and take them down with few losses. I didn't aim to win. It was more about beating down their numbers so they wouldn't show a tough fight when I went to reclaim the village.

Here comes the dumb part. The army does what I thought it'd do. They charge head-on into the roads I expected them to get into. Though instead of beating the army that was blocking their path, they just barge through my formation like there was nobody to stop them and flow right into the control point. I didn't even have time to make my units move up to flank them. Before I was able to do anything my units were surrounded both ways by italian spearmen and started being cut down. I knew it was over then, obviously. My velites and leves start skirmishing their troops but barely make any kills. My troops start routing and the fight is over in no-time.

I don't mind playing legendary at all. It's fun. It should be, at the very least, though it just disturbs me I keep losing fights over these dumb little gamebreaking things. Italian spearmen are overpowered. Units route /way/ too early (after losing 20 of their men in a 160 maniple). Combat modifiers aren't good enough. Flanking is fairly pointless and gives you little to no disadvantage. Combat is more a matter of brute force at this rate than tactics and strategy.

[Chedderlord]

Legendary difficulty put you at a severe disadvantage, so even with an even army, its still stupidly hard to win a battle, but I definetly agree with units routing too easily any the fact that the AI can just barge through units without having to fight them properly, sometimes its like units are liquid that can just be swept away easily.

[Itharus]

From what I understand, the difference between Hard and difficulties above that is pretty much just cheating on part of the AI. It's hard to really call AI that's cheating by design overpowered. It is *supposed* to be a *legendary* struggle. They can't make 'em any smarter so they just made 'em harder.

[dog army showcase]

At what point do they make ai cheat?

I want to play the highest difficulty where my units still have the same stats as an equal enemy unit, so it's me vs the hardest AI rather than me vs the hardest AI plus buffs/hacks!

[Itharus]

Not 100% sure, but I think the bonuses on Hard difficulty are just economic.

[Not Procrastinating]

You cannot attack spears from the front in this game. You have to attack from the side or behind. The alternitive is to skirmish them for miles.

[spookniggu]

Originally posted by foxyfennec:

At what point do they make ai cheat?

I want to play the highest difficulty where my units still have the same stats as an equal enemy unit, so it's me vs the hardest AI rather than me vs the hardest AI plus buffs/hacks!

I think hard/very hard is about an equal enemy.

Originally posted by luck-lucifer:

You cannot attack spears from the front in this game. You have to attack from the side or behind. The alternitive is to skirmish them for miles.

I really did try. It's really almost impossible unless you outnumber them greatly. As for skirmishing them, it's just tiresome unless you have Parthian horse archers.

[SirSonicExcess]

Italian Spearmen are OP, which is why I hire the Mercenary Italian Spearmen.

[Swimming Samurai]

Originally posted by shadowthegundamman:

Italian Spearmen are OP, which is why I hire the Mercenary Italian Spearmen.

Mercenary Italian Spearmen have a lower defence than actual Italian Spearmen

And now back to the OP, Are you sure you where not fighting the Italian Noble Infantry? they are a very powerfull Spear unit. Other than that thats all i have to say.

[Knox]

I recently had a Roman campaign I started and repeatedly had my hastati obliterated by spearmen (on very hard). I checked stats but they appeared to be around the same stats, I am unsure what was causing the difference unless higher difficulties hide the bonuses they get.

[Varmint]

Originally posted by Knox:

I recently had a Roman campaign I started and repeatedly had my hastati obliterated by spearmen (on very hard). I checked stats but they appeared to be around the same stats, I am unsure what was causing the difference unless higher difficulties hide the bonuses they get.

OP was September 19, btw anyway
I think the crashing through defenders in town defense to get to the magic flag has been addressed pretty much - in that the AI doesn't try it so hard and that there seems to be some collision and cohesion amongst the actors now.
The spears might be OP not due to stats - but due to the power of the "blob" formation. Think the mechanic at play is the targetting for attack of the individuals of the player's forces. They get assigned an individual to target - but that target is pushed around and to the rear - at any rate - away from the player's lines. And so the player's individual in the "duel" clips through the blob after their assigned target - only to find themselves outside their own ranks - and surrounded by enemy. So, that's end of battle for them - and now the formation they left is also vulnerable - and all the while other individuals are clipping into the blob and dying. If the Player's formations are loose - this clipping can even happen toward the rear of his formations - AI actors clip through the player's formation - and a single actor clip-chases after him.
Why this happens to the Player's detriment and not the AI: speculate that the AI is constantly updating and attempting to readjust formation ranks - and failing; yet all the same - issuing a command the human player can't hope to. This causes the "boiling" appearance in the mass.
By accounts from knowledgable folks about the WarScape Engine - this tendency might just be irreparable.
Will experiment in Custom battles a bit to see how it works out. First - Pincipes v Spears, then will add more spears with balancing Principes until the "blob" behaviour is well-defined. Have been slack testing out Patch8 - foolishly anticipating 8.1 fast on heels, I suppose...but be interesing to see if these conditions prevail - since September 19 after 8 or so patches....

[SirSonicExcess]

Originally posted by Sir Nodosa Of Wessex:

Mercenary Italian Spearmen have a lower defence than actual Italian Spearmen

And now back to the OP, Are you sure you where not fighting the Italian Noble Infantry? they are a very powerfull Spear unit. Other than that thats all i have to say.

I know, but I can't recruit normal italian spearmen.

[trieG]

Originally posted by appanugu:

Originally posted by Knox:

I recently had a Roman campaign I started and repeatedly had my hastati obliterated by spearmen (on very hard). I checked stats but they appeared to be around the same stats, I am unsure what was causing the difference unless higher difficulties hide the bonuses they get.

OP was September 19, btw anyway
I think the crashing through defenders in town defense to get to the magic flag has been addressed pretty much - in that the AI doesn't try it so hard and that there seems to be some collision and cohesion amongst the actors now.
The spears might be OP not due to stats - but due to the power of the "blob" formation. Think the mechanic at play is the targetting for attack of the individuals of the player's forces. They get assigned an individual to target - but that target is pushed around and to the rear - at any rate - away from the player's lines. And so the player's individual in the "duel" clips through the blob after their assigned target - only to find themselves outside their own ranks - and surrounded by enemy. So, that's end of battle for them - and now the formation they left is also vulnerable - and all the while other individuals are clipping into the blob and dying. If the Player's formations are loose - this clipping can even happen toward the rear of his formations - AI actors clip through the player's formation - and a single actor clip-chases after him.
Why this happens to the Player's detriment and not the AI: speculate that the AI is constantly updating and attempting to readjust formation ranks - and failing; yet all the same - issuing a command the human player can't hope to. This causes the "boiling" appearance in the mass.
By accounts from knowledgable folks about the WarScape Engine - this tendency might just be irreparable.
Will experiment in Custom battles a bit to see how it works out. First - Pincipes v Spears, then will add more spears with balancing Principes until the "blob" behaviour is well-defined. Have been slack testing out Patch8 - foolishly anticipating 8.1 fast on heels, I suppose...but be interesing to see if these conditions prevail - since September 19 after 8 or so patches....

This literally sounds like gibberish to me.