germans all tall massive body builder - romans short and hairy

[[EU]DrTruman]

i noticed germans if withouth shirt they have super muscolar bodies. And they are even much taller than romans. This is not historical, romans just invented the myth germans were "big super powerful warriors" to glorify themselves. Some germans were tall, some others were not, exactely as romans.
This idea of romans short dark and hairy (yes in the game you can see hairy arms and legs) is just racism. I am italian and i can clearly see there are all types of humans here: blond, brown, black haired; tall, average, short; muscolar, skinny....so why to show just one side of the truth?

I would invite the game designer to do a travel to Rome, see some young males in school, and tell me they are short hairy and dark haired. XD

[Berserk Breton]

Originally posted by Joe Chip:

Originally posted by sir_bobthegreat:

have ou ever heard about the axterix's magic potion? that's the answer

Those were Gauls.

Speaking of which, I find Asterix and Obelix a tad sad in retrospective.
I mean, Gauls got totally owned by Romans. Then the French made a comic about some Gauls defying Romans. It feels kind of desperate. Good comic though.

In fairness, the Gauls/Britons were supposed to "be taller than" the Romunculi, too. :)

[[EU]DrTruman]

so, i read so many stupid things i cannot reply each one.

I will give you some sources (It's italian but use google translator if you want):
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statura for height or italians nowadays: 175 cm average (but i guess much more if you do not consider old people)

http://www.sippeulfson.it/abbigliamento_ita.html (bones of germans of roman period say they were on average 172 cm!! and since a roman SOLDIER was on average 166-170 -minimum to access army was 165 cm, so not less than that, you can clearly see there is not so "immense" difference)

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vita_del_legionario_romano
Read well: IDEAL HEIGHT FOR ROMAN SOLDIER WAS 177 CM, AND FOR FIRST COHORT ONLY GUYS TALLER THAN 172 CM WERE CHOSEN.
How can 177 cm be an ideal height if they were all little midgets of 160-165 cm as someone said? i think to be an ideal height, it means lots were that tall.
Now ideal height for men is for many people 180-185 cm, at that time was 177 cm, so you see, not so big difference.

for another source on same thing: http://www.veleia.it/download/allegati/fn000171.pdf page 3 end part. I translate for you: "for the soldiers of first cohorts -there are 10 cohorts each legion, so 1/10 of soldiers- and EQUITES requested height was 172 cm, Vegezio says. In any case when they were not sure they looked at phisical strenght of candidate".

Oh, and only ROMAN citizens could be legionaries, otherwise they were auxiliary troops. So, how can you explain that AT LEAST 1/10 was taller than 172 cm, and generally maybe 177 (if that was "ideal", it means a lot of people had that, otherwise ideal would have been much more, 180, 185, 190, cause the taller the better in military)?

About Caligula's height: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligola
I translate for you: "Svetonio reports he was almost BOLD, had deep-inside eyes, athletic and agile body and was TALLER THAN 190 CM". He was totally a roman, same family of Augusto.
How this, if romans were all short?

Newly, i suppose, average could be short, but there were many exceptions.

About phisical appearence of ancient romans, i invite you to read this good thread, it tells you all sources you want: http://totalwargamesitalia.freeforumzone.leonardo.it/discussione.aspx?idd=4350185

[Assblaster]

Barbarian Pride World Wide.

Gas the Romans

Gaul/88

LOOK AT ALL THE BUTTHURT ROMAN MANLETS LOL! M-M-M-MUH LEGIONS

[SkyDogAlaman]

The blond italians are actually germans who came there during the fall of rome. Italy is genetically different from what it was 2300 years ago, and plus they were not well nourished like humans today (they had to do menial labor, so a lot of energy was expened in these tasks)..

[Free Luigi M.]

Dude. Of course no one really believes Romans were all short and germans were all giants. Going so in-depth is not really needed.
Anyway the last link is really interesting. Good read.
Also the "short and dark" stereotype is an American thing. You know how Americans are. They believe that Spanish, Italians and Greek people aren't white. No one knows exactly why. They just do. Because they are Americans. They live in their own world. And this reflected on their views of Romans.

Originally posted by ElkBloodXLV:

The blond italians are actually germans who came there during the fall of rome. Italy is genetically different from what it was 2300 years ago, and plus they were not well nourished like humans today (they had to do menial labor, so a lot of energy was expened in these tasks)..

This just proves you didn't do any research. At least make some effort to educate and inform yourself of what you are talking about before saying anything. Read some of the sources linked above.
Italian (meaning people leaving in the Italian peninsula) genetic is almost unchanged from what it was 2000 years ago. Goths and Longobards had negligible inpact. The only significant influence appeared in the south. Sicily mostly. Due to the Normans.

Originally posted by Swesal:

OMG if it's on Wiki it must be true, not as if anyone could at any time change what is writen on that site or anything.

OMG if it's on Wiki it must be false, because anyone can change it!
Wikipedia is reliable. Deal with it. Oh, maybe you meant to say that you know better than whoever wrote that Wikipedia page? Please tell me more on how much you know about such matters.

[Swesal]

Originally posted by DrTruman:

so, i read so many stupid things i cannot reply each one.

I will give you some sources (It's italian but use google translator if you want):
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statura for height or italians nowadays: 175 cm average (but i guess much more if you do not consider old people)

http://www.sippeulfson.it/abbigliamento_ita.html (bones of germans of roman period say they were on average 172 cm!! and since a roman SOLDIER was on average 166-170 -minimum to access army was 165 cm, so not less than that, you can clearly see there is not so "immense" difference)

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vita_del_legionario_romano
Read well: IDEAL HEIGHT FOR ROMAN SOLDIER WAS 177 CM, AND FOR FIRST COHORT ONLY GUYS TALLER THAN 172 CM WERE CHOSEN.
How can 177 cm be an ideal height if they were all little midgets of 160-165 cm as someone said? i think to be an ideal height, it means lots were that tall.
Now ideal height for men is for many people 180-185 cm, at that time was 177 cm, so you see, not so big difference.

for another source on same thing: http://www.veleia.it/download/allegati/fn000171.pdf page 3 end part. I translate for you: "for the soldiers of first cohorts -there are 10 cohorts each legion, so 1/10 of soldiers- and EQUITES requested height was 172 cm, Vegezio says. In any case when they were not sure they looked at phisical strenght of candidate".

Oh, and only ROMAN citizens could be legionaries, otherwise they were auxiliary troops. So, how can you explain that AT LEAST 1/10 was taller than 172 cm, and generally maybe 177 (if that was "ideal", it means a lot of people had that, otherwise ideal would have been much more, 180, 185, 190, cause the taller the better in military)?

About Caligula's height: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligola
I translate for you: "Svetonio reports he was almost BOLD, had deep-inside eyes, athletic and agile body and was TALLER THAN 190 CM". He was totally a roman, same family of Augusto.
How this, if romans were all short?

Newly, i suppose, average could be short, but there were many exceptions.

About phisical appearence of ancient romans, i invite you to read this good thread, it tells you all sources you want: http://totalwargamesitalia.freeforumzone.leonardo.it/discussione.aspx?idd=4350185

OMG if it's on Wiki it must be true, not as if anyone could at any time change what is writen on that site or anything.

[[EU]DrTruman]

In few words it says that same roman names "rufus" (red) "longus/longinus" (long/tall) "Caesar/Caesilia.." (blue eyes) "albus" (pale skin, white) and "burra" "caesilia" "Murcula" etc for females refer to pale skin and blond/red hair.
Silla had red hair and blu eyes. caesar had blue eyes. Catone il censore (cannot translate) same, red hair, blu eyes. And they were definitely romans, noblemen, so romans since first generations.
Tacito says: "you roman, pay attention to the dark people".

All sources report that romans OF THE ORIGINS who maybe formed nobility (who was forbidden to marry a guy from plebs until a certain time) distinguished even for the pale skin and light hair.
Turning point is punic wars: Rome becomes a superpower and masses of slaves (and merchants, and everyone who wanted to make fortune and change life) went in Rome, which changed totally its appearence.
All heroes in Eneids are blond. Ok i cannot translate everything, you can read.

ABOut the fact italians are "much" different from romans XD and we had many invasors who changed dna (maybe only ones are normans in southern italy) read/ translate this:

"Fatto sta che molto probabilmente, visti anche gli ultimi studi di genetica che dimostrano come il fenotipo e il dna degli italiani sia praticamente invariato da 2000 anni, i Romani di allora non dovevano essere troppo diversi dalla miscela fenotipica attuale, considerando ch gli apporti che ci sono stati successivamente sono stati parimenti di 'schiavi' o peregrini sia mediorientali che nordeuropei.

Cavalli-Sforza con il suo splendido Libro "Geografia e Storia dei Geni Umani" dimostra come in realtà (DOPO DELLE ANALISI RIGOROSISSIME SUL DNA), nel caso dell'Italia, la situazione genetica è variata POCHISSIMO ( a differenza di quello che si DICE E STRADICE ), e che gli apporti dei Goti e dei Longobardi ( 30.000 i primi, 70.000 i secondi) sono stati minimi a fronte della massa di popolazione italiana che ai tempi del tardo impero era ancora considerevole. Un apporto genico significativo invece è quello dato dai normanni in Sicilia, in quanto fortemente localizzato ed in una popolazione medioevale di densità molto più bassa.

I genetisti dichiarano che in realtà l'eredità Genetica degli Italiani è principalmente Ligure, Italica, Etrusca e Greca.

E visto che i Romani sorgono proprio dalla componente Italica ed Etrusca, mi sa che gli Italiani dovranno rassegnarsi a sopportare sulle proprie spalle il peso di essere senz'altro discendenti (pure genetici) di prima grandezza dei Romani."

In few words, that historical essey "geografia e storia..." explains that in the case of Italy genetics since romans changed VERY LITTLE, AND THE RESULT OF GOTHS (30000!) AND LONGOBARDS/LOMBARDS (70 THOUSANDS) WERE NOT ENOUGH TO CHANGE DEEPLY IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE MASS OF ITALIC INHABITANTS LIVING AT THE TIME OF LATE EMPIRE/ HIGH MIDDLE AGE.
ONLY SIGNIFICATIVE APPORT WAS GIVEN BY NORMANS IN SOUTHERN ITALY.
GENETISTS DECLARE THAT GENETIC INHERITAGE OF ITALIANS IS MAINLY ITALIC, LIGURE (gaulic tribe), etruscan (tuscany nowadays, where i live), GREEK.
ROMANS RISE FROM ETRUSCAN AND ITALIC PART, SO WE DEFINITELY SHARE A BIG ROMAN SOURCE.

[[EU]DrTruman]

Originally posted by Joe Chip:

This just proves you didn't do any research. At least make some effort to educate and inform yourself of what you are talking about before saying anything. Read some of the sources linked above.
Italian (meaning people leaving in the Italian peninsula) genetic is almost unchanged from what it was 2000 years ago. Goths and Longobards had negligible inpact. The only significant influence appeared in the south. Sicily mostly. Due to the Normans.

OMG SOMEONE UNDERSTOOD THIS! THANKS GOD.

that reflects what i see every days. I have 3 cousins living in southern italy, and they are blond haired and blue eyed.

[Scoundrel]

Originally posted by Vargas78:

Werent the hobbits based a bit on (ancient) Italians?

lol

[[EU]DrTruman]

Originally posted by Scoundrel:

Originally posted by Vargas78:

Werent the hobbits based a bit on (ancient) Italians?

lol

answer is: i did not know that Tolkien liked drugs.

[JH]

Originally posted by DrTruman:

In few words

If only .....

[DarthHammer]

Oh no watch out, the Itans are mad again!

They might try ineffective military posturing and switching sides, what ever will we do!?

[[EU]DrTruman]

italians come (95%) from ancient romans, genetics say. Facts. Same genes, (almost) same height (yes ok food can do some part). So the idea that romans were midgets is wrong.

[DarthHammer]

Originally posted by DrTruman:

italians come (95%) from ancient romans, genetics say. Facts. Same genes, (almost) same height (yes ok food can do some part). So the idea that romans were midgets is wrong.

Well you guys also said Mussolini made the trains run on time and that wasn't true now was it?

[[EU]DrTruman]

Originally posted by DarthHamer:

Originally posted by DrTruman:

italians come (95%) from ancient romans, genetics say. Facts. Same genes, (almost) same height (yes ok food can do some part). So the idea that romans were midgets is wrong.

Well you guys also said Mussolini made the trains run on time and that wasn't true now was it?

it was true