Phalanxes a complete and utter joke

[Clusterfock]

Pike Phalanxes actually have some benefit, they do what i would expect them to do and operate similarly to the first Rome Total War. However, without the ability to adjust unit ength and depth this severly limits their use and make flanking them entirely too easy. The formation is also buggy when units attack it and if you try to reform the group. As it stands this formation still needs work to get it up to par with the first Rome game as it stands now it really is too weak.

That said Hopilite phalanxes are 100% cosmetic. They add no buffs of any sort to combat even if you can get the troops to stay in formation, god forbid you give an attack command as they instantly brake phalanx (not like it matters anyways). As it stands this formation is a hinderance it only slows the unit down. I tested this formation with a freind and as it stands it provides no combat benefit, slows your unit speed, and locks your unit size.

This is unacceptable. A major tactic in the combat is 100% broken. As it stands the bets strategy is charging head straight into units in a phalanx. let me say ghat again the best stratgy against a phalanx is to charge straight into it...

Please fix this asap.

[B9Zero]

there are no tactics in combat now its just throw it all into the mix and its over in 30 seconds.

[Kvidar]

After testing with a friend for literally 8 hours all manner of combinations of hoplite phalanxes, I can testify that they are literally 100% cosmetic as of yet. pitting the same exact units against eachother, one in phalanx, one out of phalanx, they will go 50/50. using square formation against the same unit will 9/10 times result in you losing horribly.... from being in a defensive formation....

No formations hold besides Pike Phalanxes, and as OP stated, the complete lack of control over phalanx depth and width is a MAJOR liability. Due to the limited size of a pike phalanx if the enemy charges you with a wide enough formation they will actually run around the sides of your phalanx and you can see the debuff on morale 'Confident; unit attacked in rear' despite being in a phalanx formation.

I'm all for balance, let the enemy flank my phalanxes and get massive buffs and slaughter my men, but let me choose the length of my phalanx, and more importantly, make it so that a hoplite phalanx can actually attack and defend.... like the phalanx was designed to do.... as it's literal only purpose........

Now I know this is the part where i'm asking for -way- too much, but historically the Roman's evolved their testudos to actually have the front man in the formation lock the front hoplite phalanx spear into their shield, and the second man in the testudo would chop the tip of the greek spear off, this method was duplicated as much as was necesary, and was a large part of why the romans defeated the greek. so maybe, just maybe, after they finish making Phalanxes work like phalanxes, they can start considering implementing proper counter tactics to them.

Barbarian rushes beat out sound disciplined warriors. tell me any point in history that that occured and I will stamp Total War 2:Rome as an accurate game. until then why don't the devs actually put in a tiny bit of that massive pile of money they had to develop this game into making it somewhat realistic.

[꧁• Meeuw •꧂]

Wow, that's baaad....
Please upload some of your findings on youtube.
Hopefully CA or the upcoming modding community will fix those problems.

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Originally posted by Clusterfock:

That said Hopilite phalanxes are 100% cosmetic. They add no buffs of any sort to combat even if you can get the troops to stay in formation

Originally posted by Kvidar:

After testing with a friend for literally 8 hours all manner of combinations of hoplite phalanxes, I can testify that they are literally 100% cosmetic as of yet

They add a defensive buff and an anti-cavalry buff. This is visible in the tooltip.

Originally posted by Kvidar:

No formations hold besides Pike Phalanxes

You can also get troops to maintain formation by pressing ctrl + G when you have them selected. Phalanxes stay tight using this method.

It works if you want to stop any unit from blobbing up.

All of this was covered in the prologue, so maybe pay a little more attention next time. :)

[Kvidar]

No sir, i tested bot Ctrl+G to maintain formation and Ctrl + attack to walk on the attack, neither of them holds the formation for hoplites, though, suprisingly, pike phalanxes will hold if Ctrl+click or Ctrl+G are used.

[Snorri Nosebiter]

It seems to work for me. :/

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/882991962588945131/AF0AC57505DFE130224AE5ABCC5CA8C8A74DC73C/

No penetration of the phalanx, and no breakup except for one crazy Spartan.

[Kvidar]

Also.... in case you didn't understand clearly how i pointed out through 8+ hours of testing... the tooltip does not apply. using one Carthagian Sacred Band in phalanx formation getting charged by one Carthagian Sacred Band unit in no formation results in a 9-11 win/loss ratio to each party over the course of 20 tries in favor of the no formation group. ergo, that defensive buff is either 1. a defensive nerf, or 2. purely cosmetic. take your pick.

[MarkoDarko]

phalanx
ancient Greek formation of infantry. The soldiers were arrayed in rows (8 or 16), with arms at the ready, making a solid block that could sweep bristling through the more dispersed ranks of the enemy. Originally employed by the Spartans, it was developed by Epaminondas of Thebes (d. 362 ). Use of the phalanx reached its apex when Philip II and Alexander the Great used the great Macedonian phalanx (16 deep and armed with the sarissa, a spear c.13 ft/4 m long) to conquer all Greece and the Middle East. Later, the Macedonian phalanx deteriorated and had few Macedonians in it; it was defeated in several battles with the Romans who conquered (168 ) the Macedonians at Pydna. Thereafter the phalanx was obsolete. Because it lacked tactical flexilibity, the phalanx was a better defensive than offensive formation.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/phalanx

dont know why your using a phalanx formatin as more an offensive tactic to begin with. but it was more useful for withstanding a full-on charge from enemies. And if i remember correctly in the game, anyone charging straight into a phalanx got pretty good morale shock and the phalanx itself had better defensive and bracive advantage over that charging unit. otherwise, using a phalanx for offensive is kinda unacceptable. Sorry you think that its completely broken (when its actually historically accurate).

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Originally posted by Kvidar:

otherwise, using a phalanx for offensive is kinda unacceptable. Sorry you think that its completely broken (when its actually historically accurate).

So.... how did Greeks attack each other when fighting amongst themselves? :)

The phalanx was both an offensive and defensive formation. Look at Marathon, Plataea, Gaugamela and countless other battles.

[Kvidar]

@soviet that isn't the issue, pike phalanx works exactly as you stated. -Hoplite- phalanx gives no morale decrease, no visible defensive nor offensive buff, and no increase nor decrease in kills/deaths against an equal unit. (literally same unit, the sacred band) I agree that there were tactics against it, but it having literally no mechanical change is unacceptable. what i am asking for is there to be situations where it is good, and situations where is it bad, instead of not doing anything.
Edit: Nevermind the fact that literally in game as soon as combat begins, either with your hoplite phalanx charging at the enemy, or the enemy charging into your phalanx, the phalanx completely falls apart graphically.
@Mr Ely
1. That's not even a phalanx go look it up
2. that's a screenshot
3. a picture doesn't negate that mechanically in game the phalanx group -lost- more than the straight charging group.

[MarkoDarko]

and what time period is the game..and what did the definition say?

[Leagle]

I press Ctrl+ up/down to make them wider and what not, so two groups are shoulder to shoulder, seems to help me a bit.

[MarkoDarko]

btw my last comment was not directed at you Kvidar

[Clusterfock]

Did you really post a screenshot to show a that a phalanx works...? Guess what thats not a phalanx.
1. Hopilite phalanxes DO NOT WORK in any fashion. Don't beleive me? get a freind and put one Sacred Band vs another Sacred Band. Have 1 in phalanx and 1 just charge. The results will be statistically the same, both parties will be within 10-20 units when one routes.

Now compare this to a Pikeman phalanx, this is how it should be working to a lesser extent. Running a test 1 pkeman unit charging a phalnxed pikeman unit, the phalnxed pikeman nits obliterated the equal charging pikeman unit. something like 158 to 48 units remaining. That is how a phalanx works. Now see my other issues with how this phalanx is also still horrible.

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Originally posted by Kvidar:

@Mr Ely
1. That's not even a phalanx go look it up
2. that's a screenshot
3. a picture doesn't negate that mechanically in game the phalanx group -lost- more than the straight charging group.

1- none of the ingame phalanxes are accurate. That's what I got when I pressed the 'phalanx' button.
2- I can't link battle replays to Steam. You can see from the corpses that some fighting has been going on.
3- your test is flawed. Using the same unit, the charge bonus will negate the defensive bonus. Try with a different attacking unit, attacking at the run and attacking at the walk.