How to capture cities?

[zgrssd]

I am seriously trying to play this game, but I am just not getting anywhere because cities are simply too powerfull defensively, especially with the overly defensive AI army on top of it.

Whatever army I have, the AI has an equal army. PLUS the city backing it up. To take a city with full defense army inside I would propably need 30-40 units. Wich I could not afford.
And even then sieging it down might be better.

In theory I could take the city after defeating an enemy push. Except the enemy never pushes with all his forces and I logically take too many losses on the defense.
If I want to make a counter push I have to wait for resupply of my army. At wich point the AI has build up most of the strenght it had lost in the assault and still has the city in his back.

I tried catching the AI with it's army out of place (just outside supply range). But it seems to be too aware of movements outside of it's territory and it gets nowhere.
The only times I succeded was when the AI's was trying a counter push and failed on the battlemap.
Or when I had a wealth level of at least 3:1, at wich point I could just burrow them in elites.

Seriously, I am fighting on easy but I am just not getting anywhere due the AI never going all out and the immense defense of the cities.
What am I doing wrong?

[icedude94]

Siege weapons. Use flaming shot instead of explosive for the ballista. Knock down a decently wide area of wall first and then use the remaining ammo to kill the infantry. Rush some light infantry in first, the AI will throw all its defenders at the light infantry and tire themselves out while your ranged units can pelt them while the defenders are massed together.

Then when they're tired out and your light/regular infantry have taken enough casualties, send in your elites.

The fresh elites, with their higher attack, will cut through the enemies at a rapid rate will likely cause a mass route and you win.

If it looks like you're going to be doing an urban slog, remember to rotate your troops in and out to give them time to rest.

[zgrssd]

Originally posted by icedude94:

Siege weapons. Use flaming shot instead of explosive for the ballista. Knock down a decently wide area of wall first and then use the remaining ammo to kill the infantry. Rush some light infantry in first, the AI will throw all its defenders at the light infantry and tire themselves out while your ranged units can pelt them while the defenders are massed together.

Then when they're tired out and your light/regular infantry have taken enough casualties, send in your elites.

The fresh elites, with their higher attack, will cut through the enemies at a rapid rate will likely cause a mass route and you win.

That is the usual abuse of Siege defense AI.

I talk about getting to the point where I even have a CHANCE to attack them in the first place without ending up with a 3:1 defender advantage.
I can't draw thier armies out of city range into ambushes, because the AI is (naturally) all knowing on strategic map.
And the AI can muster the same forces I can. And then still has the city guard on it's back. Plus maybe nearby defending armies. Plus the walls. Plus attrition. Plus mercenaries.

I can't out tech them (because we all kinda start the same).
I can't out maneuver them (because the AI knows everything).
I can't outnumber them (same resources. Plus AI bonus. Plus city guard).

[Dark Angel]

I do like the sieges in this game, they work a lot better than in M2TW.

The secret is in preparation.

You never rush a good siege. Use your siege engines to cripple and weaken the defenders before you charge in, you aren't on the battlefield, so don't act like it's a battle in the open.

If you are opting for a breach, clear a wide section or several breaches in the wall.

If it is an escalade, co-ordinate your ladders at distances, don't crowd the same section of wall. Once you have a lodgement, widen it by supporting other units trying to get into the city.

Co-ordinate your attacks and take a position before moving on.

Clear a section of wall, then move up reserves unopposed. Create localised fire superiority.

Create killing zones for the desperate defenders and then shoot them to bits.

Stretch the defenders if a position is thinly held by attacking at the extremities, use diversionary tactics to pull the enemy away from your main point of effort, or skirmishers to draw their fire and waste it. or in the case above where they are more numerous, create a salient at a key point and fight your way in with localised numerical superiority. Don't crowd or jostle your own men, that will only lead to ineffectiveness.

More impotantly, wear the defenders down with siege attrition before you decide to assault a city. I never assault a city before I know I can take it. Starve them into a weakened state and attack on your terms.

In short, use good siege craft.

[ElPrezCBF]

Siege weapons help a lot but be careful about your ammo use and the tier level of the enemy city. As soon as I can afford it, I usually send two full armies with siege weapons to take walled cities because ammo tends to run out pretty quickly. I believe you can increase the damage stat and ammo of your siege weapons through research, which is useful especially against higher tier cities.

Use normal ammo to take out arrow towers in smaller settlements because these are smaller and harder to hit with flaming ammo that are less accurate. In larger walled cities, such towers are larger and easier to hit with flaming ammo, which cause more damage despite their accuracy penalty.

If you lack siege weapons early on, just siege the enemy until they are forced to sally out into the open against your army. It's unlikely for the AI to be able to send significant reinforcements to break the siege if any at all during the early game when you're playing on easy.

During late game, use your heavy onagers to prioritize destruction of enemy bastion artillery defenses before you target their normal towers and walls.

[Dragnipurake]

On easy you do not need more than one army to succeed. You do not need siege artillery at all.

The cause must be on your tactics or unit selection. Maybe post those and we can give advice.

[SuperGorp]

Don't be intimidated by troop numbers, pay more attention to troop quality. Levy spearmen are wussies!!

[zgrssd]

Originally posted by SuperGorp:

Don't be intimidated by troop numbers, pay more attention to troop quality. Levy spearmen are wussies!!

They are enough to flank or keep you in fire area of ranged combatants. Even medium to heavy cav can have issues with them. And they are free of charge.

Originally posted by Dragnipurake:

On easy you do not need more than one army to succeed. You do not need siege artillery at all.

The cause must be on your tactics or unit selection. Maybe post those and we can give advice.

I can beat the AI on the battlefield. It's only a Total War AI after all.

But that does not matter because it just beats me on the strategic map.
It doesn't matter wich troops I have or how many of them. The AI has enough to counter them. And then some.
I can have perfect counters and use them perfectly, the AI just has more mass & class and beats me.

[thewelshwizard *T*R*Y*]

Use your spies to poison the provisions of the army and the garrison. That's if you have the time and money. Poison don't come cheap you know :)

[Dragnipurake]

Originally posted by zgrssd:

.
But that does not matter because it just beats me on the strategic map.
It doesn't matter wich troops I have or how many of them. The AI has enough to counter them. And then some.
I can have perfect counters and use them perfectly, the AI just has more mass & class and beats me.

You still did not tell us what units you are using.

But for starters, my army compositions are mostly similar. 4x ranged, 4x cavalry (who wait outside until a gate has been captured), 12x infantry (12x swords or 8xspears + 4x swords), no artillery. You do not need more, especially on easy. Give the 4 initial ladders to the sword units. Let the ranged units be the first ones to take fire. Kepp the rest close. Once the ladders are set order all units up on the wall. Even medium infantry like Hastati or Chosen Swordmen are more than enough for this job. Stay away from leavy units or units with no/low armor (Naked Warriors, Painted Warriors etc.).

[icedude94]

Originally posted by thewelshwizard { W.A.R }:

Use your spies to poison the provisions of the army and the garrison. That's if you have the time and money. Poison don't come cheap you know :)

Yes do this. I forgot about this one.

A spy with a few levels could kill off about a 3rd of the garrison/defending army.

[SkyrazorGT]

I would suggest thinking more meta. Costly sieges are not the only way to capture a town. You need to be more creative. Think about different strategies you could use to draw out the enemy army stack(s) in bad positions. One way is to send a flanker army (a small, highly mobile army comprised of skirmishers or horse archers that can get away really quickly and have high movement points on the campaign map) to tempt the defenders into lashing out with all their might at that small force, in which case, you retreat (ensure you have enough movement points left, and that you are not positioned too close to the settlement that the defender can retreat to the city without using forced march). If the defender army catches up with your flanker force after your retreat, see if your fast, light troops can run circles around them until time expires. If not, just sacrifice them, since they're not that expensive or particularly experienced anyway. The point is to get the defending armies to exhaust their movement points chasing a small force with little strategic value. Then, strike at the city, now left undefended with your main force. Use your agents to hinder or halt the enemy forces once you have captured the settlement and are replenishing. Then when they are sufficiently weakened (or you have replenished enough), isolate each force and destroy it. Done.

[noodle]

Have you tried just continuing the siege OP?

I mean if you're really getting beat down so bad it seems like you're just rocking up to cities with a full army garrisoned in them and expecting to win. In that situation you could continue the siege, building the better siege equipments (thinking Wall Rams and Siege Towers) so you can at least breach the walls with minimal losses if it looks like a siege battle would be needed. Otherwise you continue the siege and force them to sally out to you on a field battle. Remember sieges will trigger attrition losses on both sides, usually the defenders will get the worst of it from memory (can be affected by general abilities I think)

other than that Spies with good Poisoning ability work well as others mention, or you could go into Raiding stance in their lands to force their hand. Dark Angel's post is really good for general siege tips on the battlefield.

It should really go without saying but I hope you're not just rolling up some ladders to the walls and hoping for the best, I've fought off full stacks of the AI that tried this with only the low-mid tier garrison forces. With the army limit of 20 are you sure there's not other armies in reinforcement range? Is the main army stationed there full of elite units or have armour/weapon upgrades?

[ElPrezCBF]

[/quote]I can beat the AI on the battlefield. It's only a Total War AI after all. But that does chargeter because it just beats me on the strategic map. It doesn't matter wich troops I have or how many of them. The AI adviceugh to counter them. And then some. I can have perfect counters and use them perfectly, the AI just has more mass & class and beats me. [/quote]
Using artillery on easy is not a question whether it's needed to succeed or not. It's a question of whether you want to soften up the enemy to make the siege much easier or waste time in an attrition battle with defenders or wait out a long siege. Of course, if the ai garrison really sucks even on easy late game, then you can go without artillery as long as your troops are not inferior in quality vs the enemy.

As soon as possible, you should research techs that unlock higher tier units because these can win even if outnumbered by inferior enemy troops given the right situation and tactics.

[zgrssd]

I understand why you missunderstand what I am asking. The title was a bit misleading.

The questin is actually:
How do I out army the AI?

When I have an army of 20 Units, he has an army of 30. Plus settlement guard.
By the time I squeezed 30 out of my economy, he has an army of 45 units. Plus settlement guard.

Now one of the following things will happen:
- I attack or siege. He counter stirkes. I loose and my army is gone.
- The AI gathers up until it has enough forces to attack my army, be rather sure to win and still leave 10 units at home. So even if I defeat the assaulting army there is still way to much defense left to counter attack with the damaged army. I loose.
- The AI just sits there doing nothing. I can't add any more troops and my assault and econ both go nowhere. I loose.


And the AI arming up is not even dependant on me. They will just gather forces to defend themself from thier neighbours. Wich will then in turn gather forces to defend themself from thier neighbours.
So the AI just keeps adding up to insane army counts that I can not match. Keeps the army at home like a paranoid weasel. And I can't even take those laughable little barabarian villages with half the might of the Roman empire on my side, because the AI simply has enough to match+50%+Town guard.

As far as I can tell from teh AI taking other AI settlements around me, wars are either Curb stomp battles from the big factions (because they simply have so much more econ).
Or wars of attrition where in the end the ability to out produce the enemy in units wins the war and hte first 1-2 assaults are only there to weaken the defense.For the next 1-2 waves.

[Keeper of the Groove]

well first of all you dont have to fight them, you can just wait untill they run out of food.

if you do fight then you still got 4 ladders to start with and you can still build more siege equipment. i really dont understand what your problem is. just attack from multiple sides and capture gates and towers, by using ladders and firing at enemy troops on the walls with archers for example. it rly shouldnt be that hard.

EDIT:

furthermore, you say you always have just as many units as the AI but i mean there's not much reason to not recruit more units than them. but anyways you shouldnt need more units.
if you properly use siege equipment, attack from multiple sides and try to avoid choke points.