Original language

[andrew]

The total war games would be better if all the dialogue is done in the setting's natie language like it was done in Total war shogun 2. To fix the issue of players not being able to understand the dialogue there could be subtitles set up. It would be fun to see the romans speak in latin, the egyptians speak egyptians, etc.

[Dragnipurake]

1. Reading subtitles distracts from the visuals.

2. For most factions nobody knows how they actually spoke nor is there much written source material known. And for the rest we have only written evidence and still don't know how it actually was spoken. Yes, that does include Latin.

[NekRon99]

Hey Estimundus Pheriabundis! oop forgot YOU dont speak Latin. (Steve Martin, a wild and crazy guy)

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Pronunciation isn't a huge issue due to the total lack of native speakers we have nowadays, but we're severely lacking in source material for anything but Latin and Koine Greek. We'd struggle to translate even basic sentences for most other civilisations.

Originally posted by Weggers:

It would be fun to see the romans speak in latin, the egyptians speak egyptians, etc.

OP, most educated Romans spoke Greek- it was the language of the upper classes, much as French was the preferred language of the aristocracy in England during the Middle Ages.

Caesar's often-quoted 'The die is cast / iacta alea est' was actually reported by Plutarch to have been said in Greek at the time. All your Roman generals would be speaking Greek. :)

Egyptians would also be speaking Greek, as they're essentially a Greek nation at this point in history.

[andrew]

its ok if the egyptians speak greek or the romans speak greek, i just dont want to hear english as it takes away from the authenticity of the factions and yes i do realize that might not be possible because of the lack of knowledge on them

[l33tness08]

Originally posted by Weggers:

its ok if the egyptians speak greek or the romans speak greek, i just dont want to hear english as it takes away from the authenticity of the factions and yes i do realize that might not be possible because of the lack of knowledge on them

That's very strange.

How is speaking English less authentic than everyone just speaking Latin or Greek? I'd think it was stupid for Gauls or Germans or Scythians to be speaking something like Greek just because English isn't good enough.

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Originally posted by l33tness08:

How is speaking English less authentic than everyone just speaking Latin or Greek? I'd think it was stupid for Gauls or Germans or Scythians to be speaking something like Greek just because English isn't good enough.

It makes sense for the generals of a great many of the factions to speak Greek, as it was the lingua franca of the Mediterranean during the Classical period.

The Romans, everyone in the Greek cities, evry island (read: major trading port) in the Mediterranean, the Macedonians, the Egyptians, the Seleucids, Pontus, Bithynia and more controlled a huge area of land between them stretching far into the east.

I realise that this doesn't apply to the Gauls or the Suebi, but we have about 800 inscriptions in Gaulish and the reconstructed Proto-Germanic language to draw from.

The only major languages we'd have trouble with in this time period would be Punic (easily covered by Carthaginian generals speaking Greek), Parthian and Macedonian.

[l33tness08]

Originally posted by Dave Hedgehog:

Originally posted by l33tness08:

How is speaking English less authentic than everyone just speaking Latin or Greek? I'd think it was stupid for Gauls or Germans or Scythians to be speaking something like Greek just because English isn't good enough.

It makes sense for the generals of a great many of the factions to speak Greek, as it was the lingua franca of the Mediterranean during the Classical period.

The Romans, everyone in the Greek cities, evry island (read: major trading port) in the Mediterranean, the Macedonians, the Egyptians, the Seleucids, Pontus, Bithynia and more controlled a huge area of land between them stretching far into the east.

I realise that this doesn't apply to the Gauls or the Suebi, but we have about 800 inscriptions in Gaulish and the reconstructed Proto-Germanic language to draw from.

The only major languages we'd have trouble with in this time period would be Punic (easily covered by Carthaginian generals speaking Greek), Parthian and Macedonian.

800 inscriptions doesn't sound like enough to me.

My point is though, if you can't do every single language required, properly, you shouldn't be doing any. Because then I think, the argument would (rightly) swing the other way- "Greeks speak Greek, Romans speak Latin, Egyptians speak Egyptian, but (to use your example) my Macedonians don't speak Macedonian, the Parthians don't speak Parthian, why are my Carthaginian generals speaking Greek"

And even with Greek and Latin, it is not possible to recreate how it was spoken authentically anyway. Certainly you can come to some conclusions, but it just can't be known if you're doing it right.

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Originally posted by l33tness08:

And even with Greek and Latin, it is not possible to recreate how it was spoken authentically anyway. Certainly you can come to some conclusions, but it just can't be known if you're doing it right.

By that logic, we should give up on Classical games entirely if we can't be accurate in every detail- or are languages the sole exception to your rule?

Originally posted by l33tness08:

800 inscriptions doesn't sound like enough to me.

Enough for what? We only need to reconstruct a few dozen sentences. It depends entirely on what those inscriptions contain- but you sound like you know that already. :)

I see where you're coming from, but an historical game doesn't have to be totally accurate in every minute detail. The original Europa Barbarorum mod for Rome managed to record authentic dialogue for most of the factions from source material, and it added to the immersion- even if Classical language buffs could spot the errors.

For the record, it wouldn't be out of place for Punic and Macedonian generals to speak Greek. As I said, it was the lingua franca of the Classical Mediterranean world, and was likely the prevailing language in Carthaginian mercenary armies.

[l33tness08]

Originally posted by Dave Hedgehog:

Originally posted by l33tness08:

And even with Greek and Latin, it is not possible to recreate how it was spoken authentically anyway. Certainly you can come to some conclusions, but it just can't be known if you're doing it right.

By that logic, we should give up on Classical games entirely if we can't be accurate in every detail- or are languages the sole exception to your rule?

I don't believe that's what I was saying at all.

I'm saying that if you can't do every language required for the game, you'd be best not doing any. I don't see it as fair at all. I believe you would be better off leaving it in English/Italian/French or whatever language the game itself is in.

As for the rest, 800 doesn't seem like enough to come up with any substantial works on that language, such as a Dictionary or Grammar. Of course, I don't know what kind of inscriptions these are. Are they long, detailed, inscriptions or fragments inscribed on a pot shard?
Of course there might be enough there to come up with the half dozen sentences you need for the game, but there might not.

On the subject of Greek being the lingua franca, I think it's a wild assumption to assume Greek is an acceptable substitute for every language. It may have been the lingua franca, but I find it hard to imagine Hannibal going around spouting Greek in general conversation.
I know Cato the Elder was rather anti greek, and while he knew it refused to speak it. Furthermore, if they all spoke Greek I imagine for example, Cicero's vast body of work would be written IN Greek rather than just dropping in to it occasionally for a flourish.
Basically, what I'm trying to get across is, sure plenty of people knew Greek and spoke Greek, but I don't think you can really say that a General would be speaking Greek to his army when he's not Greek. I don't think it's right to assume they'd be speaking Greek in all their Forums and Halls. Etc. You get the point.

Ultimately, yes it might add depth, but I personally think it'd be better off being left in modern language.

And to say nothing of the logistics behind reasearching, composing, translating, training voice actors to speak said language...

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Originally posted by l33tness08:

On the subject of Greek being the lingua franca, I think it's a wild assumption to assume Greek is an acceptable substitute for every language.

I didn't say it was a substitute- a lingua franca is a language used for communication across a wide area by many different peoples, much as French was used in the Middle Ages across all of Europe.

Hannibal wouldn't have been speaking it in general conversation, but in his overwhelmingly mercenary army recruited from around the Mediterranean, Greek would have been common to many of them- especially as many of the states in the Mediterranean were primarily Greek-speaking.

I understand where you're coming from on the Roman side- I wasn't trying to make a case for them to actually speak Greek in game. It was just a little bit of historical trivia.

Some people think it will add to the immersion and overlook any errors, or, like the majority, won't know any better. Others will want it to be perfect. There's no way to make everybody happy. :)

[l33tness08]

True enough. If only there were...

[Snorri Nosebiter]

On the historical side, Cicero may have written in Latin, but most literate Romans also knew Greek. It was a point of pride among the Roman upper classes to be able to jump back and forth between the two languages withouot hesitation.

There are bilingual inscriptions- some with single sentences written in a mixture of both languages -and memorials of common soldiers written in both Latin and Greek.

Again, I'm not advocating the use of Greek to fill in all the gaps in our knowledge- it was just a lot more widespread than people think.

[Dragnipurake]

Originally posted by Dave Hedgehog:

I realise that this doesn't apply to the Gauls or the Suebi, but we have about 800 inscriptions in Gaulish and the reconstructed Proto-Germanic language to draw from.

Not really. Proto-Germanic is a purely hypothetical construct without any support by archeological evidence. While it is an interesting experiment, its scientific value is questionable.

[ElPrezCBF]

It's clear from this and past threads on this topic that we'll never get a consensus on language, so I'll just wish for a mod that will suit my taste. Not that I'll lose sleep without it. Let's see. The whole of Europe excluding Italy will have the current barbarian accent. The whole of Africa and Middle East will have an Arabic accent. The whole of Greece, Asia Minor and Greek eastern factions will have a Greek accent. Parthia and remaining eastern factions will have an Arabic accent. That will suit me just fine.

Italy itself will have the proud Roman accent in popular English media: www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbI-fDzUJXI

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Originally posted by Dragnipurake:

Originally posted by Dave Hedgehog:

I realise that this doesn't apply to the Gauls or the Suebi, but we have about 800 inscriptions in Gaulish and the reconstructed Proto-Germanic language to draw from.

Not really. Proto-Germanic is a purely hypothetical construct without any support by archeological evidence. While it is an interesting experiment, its scientific value is questionable.

I agree wholeheartedly. Luckily, we're not dealing with scientific value- just entertainment and immersion value!

The comparative method used to reconstruct ancient languages is a valuable tool, by the way- linguists are well aware of its limitations, but it can still offer valuable insight on language change.