Germans

[Fear2288]

I know a good deal about the Greeks and Romans and have a decent understanding of the Celts but I won't claim to know much about the Germanic peoples of this era.

However there's always been a constant view in my readings/research concerning the Germans - that they were brutal, savage, and something to be feared on the battlefield by both the Celtic tribes that bordered them and the Romans who unsucessfully tried to conquer them.

So what's the deal with the Germans (i.e. the Suebi) in Rome 2?

To me they don't feel like they embody this image in the slighest. Their unit roster is predominantly made of unarmored units that get torn up by skirmishers and cut down with ease by any other unit using swords. They also tend to break much faster b/c of this fact. Their early game units even have issues holding their own against Celtic Tribesmen (the garrison unit).

I've tried numerous times to get a Suebi grand campaign going but have been consistently overwhelmed by Celtic factions whose Oathsworn unit can literally take on six spear units, decimate them, and only lose something like fifteen men in the process.

And Caesar in Gaul? Well it was going fairly well against the other Germans and the Celts but once a Roman Legionaries unit showed up it was game over.

So is that image of the savage, uber-dangerous Germanic warrior complete fiction or does anyone think that the Germans are just a little too underpowered in this game?

[Mad_House]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi

Basically, a war-like tribe that maintained stability through conflict and didn't care for stagnant peace. They even went as far as settling in northern Iberia.

[-=ACED=-Gh0stWulf]

yeah the barbarian factions were screwed up pretty majorly and definitly dont embody what history depicts them as but then the roman players and greek players would complain about too hard of a campaign lol

[NotActuallyACat]

You're most likely playing them wrong. Suebi have some glaring holes and unique units which make them play unlike any other faction.

Basically, you wanna rush Wodanaz Spears. They are excellent high tier spears whose only fault is their armor. They're also recruitable almost immediatedly (you just need a level 2 shrine of Wodanaz) and they're quite affordable later on. For now they'll form a small but srong backbone of your army. You'll also want to recruit spear brothers to replace your spear levies. This will take a bit of research. They're a decent line-unit until late game when you can afford more wodanaz spears. The idea is to use your spearmen as line units. They're there to form a battle line and give you something to flank. They won't kill much (Wodanaz are a small exception due to their high attack) but they will stay alive. If you have the BoW DLC you can supplement them with wolf warriors who are decent medium infantry and will kill stuff. Late game you'll also want some sword masters in your battle line

Use your clubs (bloodsworn are a massive improvement over club levies here, replace the levies ASAP) to flank the enemy. Club infantry deals very high damage but their defensive stats suck. So they're better used for flanking. Once you get berserkers you're in for a treat: They kill stuff DEAD. And cause fear. Shield berserkers with two units of bloodsworn (bloodsworn are cheap and can eat the arrows and javelins and chase of skirmishers) and hit a flank. It will buckle fast.

Germanic longbowmen and night hunters fulfill the assassination role: Night hunters can infiltrate and remain hidden. They're also spearmen so they can rapidly kill a cavalry general. Finally, they cause fear. Use them to charge the enemy in the back where you see them wavering. Germanic longbowmen are archers and can thus do a lot of damage and have decent staying power due to their ammo capabity. Use them to kill skirmishers and then flank them around to shoot the enemy in the back.



Recap: Pin enemy with spears/wolf warrior/swordmaster, flank with bloodsworn/berserker, kill cav general with night hunters/hit weak spot with night hunters, shoot stuff with longbowmen.

Also, make sure to avoid long skirmishing phase: Your infantry has low armor. They do have the best shields ingame so they can survive a bit better now but they will still die very fast.

[Mashsmouth]

Originally posted by Fear2288:

the Romans who unsucessfully tried to conquer them.

Relearn this part of your history. The Romans didn't have a problem conquering them, they were just overextended. Rome was able to push far past the Rhine and took nearly all of Northern Germania for vengeance because of Teutoburg. They killed every tribe along the way, and then left.

[Dragonrubi]

It seems how we read and interpret history, in my experience is not only one the “right” and the rest “wrong” Is too arrogant to “marry” with an interpretation and label of “ignorant” the ones that doesn’t share our view.

Roman Empire needed a constant expansion, when it reached its peak it began a slow and painful decay (even when the reasons of the decay also maybe too complex and subject of discussion).

The Roman’s expansion was blocked as I know, in east by the Parthians (Roman’s heavy infantry couldn’t match their cavalry). In the South by the Nubians, and in Europe by the GERMANS.

Actually the Teutoburg forest was a very expensive defeat (even when they did that “punitive campaign” you mentioend), they never recovered that army. And for some it even cost the “final blow” to the empire. The Huns arrived through there, so the Romans not only needed to fight the Huns, ALSO all the Germans tribes at once that were not under their control because they couldn’t centuries ago.

[Mad_House]

Not to mention, it was the Germanic Visigoths and the Hunsmen from the east who were responsible for toppling the Roman Empire...

[bloodymonarch]

It's funny this topic came up. I'm playing my first grand campaign as the Suebi on normal. Haven't encountered problems yet besides the poor optimization of the game. I dislike having to hover over my ranged units one at a time to see their line of fire.

[Mashsmouth]

The Romans and the Visigoths fought together against the Huns, they couldn't beat them alone. I'm pretty sure it was the battle of Chaerona or something.

EDIT: Battle of Chalons

[Fear2288]

Originally posted by Who Goes Thar:

Originally posted by Fear2288:

the Romans who unsucessfully tried to conquer them.

Relearn this part of your history. The Romans didn't have a problem conquering them, they were just overextended. Rome was able to push far past the Rhine and took nearly all of Northern Germania for vengeance because of Teutoburg. They killed every tribe along the way, and then left.

The Romans had plenty of issues trying to reign in the Germans. They didn't simply shrug and say "eh, who cares?" and leave.

And while I certainly understand possible logistical issues and the challenges that the terrain and weather may have provided there really isn't much of a reason why the Romans couldn't have conquered and subjugated them just like they had the Gallic Celts - unless the German people were just too fierce and hostile to be properly put down.

The Germans were a heck of a lot closer to Rome than Brittania, Egypt, and Syria and that didn't seem to stop them from marching there and taking what they could. Thus I don't completely buy the "overextended" idea.

[Mashsmouth]

You're right, I was thinking more than typing. There weren't enough Romans and they weren't centralized enough to hold down Germania. Same for the Picts in Hibernia. Even if there were, it'd still be bloody.

[Swimming Samurai]

Well what most people like to get confused with Germanic people is the time era set in the game Rome 2 and the Migration Period.

Before the Migration Period it was the Germans playing the defensive. And i have heard allot that Germany was lacking in Iron and Iron smithing.

Examples are, most weapons the germans used where spears becuse they need to save as much iron as they can for other things thats not war.

The game has a good example of that with units such as club levys and blood sworn but sadly their stats are weaker (but who said cheap weps makes you weak).

Also how Swords found in Germany (before conquest of Gual) where Celtic not Germanic. so its very possible that the Germanic people trade with the Celts allot.

As Rome got closer, the more Germanic people advance in weapons. Later the Germanic people had Roman Spathas or weapons that where influenced from it. but this is much later after Rome 2.

Now in real life the Germanic people where a very warlike people. Julius Ceaser says that Celts are warlike but can be civilized but Germans are complete Savages. as you can later tell in 9 A.D.

As for the game i dont get why they have to be weak. Club or not a good warrior is still a good warrior right? (wolf warriors are cool though)

(make a good unit with good stats but with crappy Weapon DMG)

[Maarten]

pretty much have same problem, figured that thats why he has soooo many ranged units,
and idd, legionairs are useless against skirmishers, form a levy wall, they will die but hold out long enough to kill hunderds with your skirmishers..

2nd thing i noticed. a head on attack doesn't work, hit an run tactics seem to work far better for me

[Ape-tier Buffoonery]

Originally posted by bloodymonarch:

It's funny this topic came up. I'm playing my first grand campaign as the Suebi on normal. Haven't encountered problems yet besides the poor optimization of the game. I dislike having to hover over my ranged units one at a time to see their line of fire.

Hold space. Shows you movement and attack orders, and the range of units, I almost play 60% of the battles with it on just to see if my units decide to persue a routed enemy or not.

[bloodymonarch]

Originally posted by AAAAAAAAGH!!:

Originally posted by bloodymonarch:

It's funny this topic came up. I'm playing my first grand campaign as the Suebi on normal. Haven't encountered problems yet besides the poor optimization of the game. I dislike having to hover over my ranged units one at a time to see their line of fire.

Hold space. Shows you movement and attack orders, and the range of units, I almost play 60% of the battles with it on just to see if my units decide to persue a routed enemy or not.

Thanks.

[Mashsmouth]

How could you have 300 hours of S2 and not know that?