Driving me nuts - Xiphos v Kopis

[Itharus]

Every freaking Greek solder in the game uses a gat damn kopis. Kopis' were more of a cavalry thing for the Greeks; the main sword used by hoplites was typically the xiphos. Wondering what one looks like? Zoom in on the Greek champion. It's that sort of leaf-bladed lookin' sword they have. Also the model for the kopis in this game looks more like a falcata than a kopis (very similar swords, but the waist and tips were different between them).

And I know the CA team is at least as well read or more so on the subject than I am, so... what the hell! They should know better >:(

/rant

OK, I feel better now.

[Fear2288]

Hmmm...I've never seen a hoplite unit ever use a sword no matter how the battle was going. Is there a unit you can name that changes from spear to sword (and uses the kopis)?

I have seen the kopis in the hands of the individual unit leaders though.

[Itharus]

Hoplites. Playing Macedon, anyway. They tend to draw swords when formation breaks, or if you turn it off. Pikemen also will draw them when an enemy gets past the pikes and hits them up close and personal. The basic Macedonian cavalry also use them sometimes... citizen cavalry, I think they are called.

Do you have most/all your settings on high or better? I know some combat animations are allegedly removed/lowered on less than high settings.

[Mike]

Hoplites employed both Kopis and Xiphos swords. Spartans in particular used a shorter variant of the Xiphos. The Kopis wasn't as common, but it was still used, probably due to many soldiers having to pay for their own equipment, so they may have gotten hand-me-downs or weapons from relatives. For them to have strictly one type of either would be inaccurate, because even their armor and equipment as a whole would have some variations.

And yeah, they tend to draw swords when things break down into the huge melee blobs that happen, about a minute before everyone runs for their lives on both sides because war isn't for girly men.

[Itharus]

Still... the infantry were more likely to use the xiphos, hands down. I'd just like to see the kopis used by cavalry (which lends better to its design anyway), and the infantry get the xiphos. I'd also accept a mix of the two... but watching mass kopis on all my soldiers is just weird, and seeing my chamption sitting there xiphos raised is like insult to injury.

Damnit, thunderstorms. BBL -_-

[Mike]

The main thing that irritates me is the ridiculous uniformity there is with the Germans. Also, their hair. Do they have Paul Mitchell salons in Suebia?

I don't even pay much attention to the weapons. You could go on and on about how inaccurate literally the WHOLE variant of one spear there is in the game. It's like they thought "stick with pointy end" was all there was back then.

[Hannibal Barca]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Redneck:

The main thing that irritates me is the ridiculous uniformity there is with the Germans. Also, their hair. Do they have Paul Mitchell salons in Suebia?

I don't even pay much attention to the weapons. You could go on and on about how inaccurate literally the WHOLE variant of one spear there is in the game. It's like they thought "stick with pointy end" was all there was back then.

Pauly D of jersey shore works for CA's art department.

[HighKnightsHemplar]

the kopis originally was only for cavalry men. i own one and it even hasa horse head hilt. it was made primarily for chopping. its very much like an axe. it rediculously heave for most weapons that sixe. the reason being was horse men would use it and not even put much muscle in to swinging it. gravity and the flick of the wrist and the weight of the blade was enough to chop. the xihpos was used and to hand melee. seeing as the kopis is to heavy and awkward feeling to use against other swords. the xiphos was used by pike men and the rare mellee soldiers or 2. although the only greeks in the game that uss it are the original peltast. not the light ones.


and in regards to the hoplitais. they didnt use swords pretty much ever. their weapon was locking their sheilds and pushing the enemy while spears would stab below or over their shields. most of the old hoplitais didnt have anything besides a sheild and helmet and a spear. (not even clothes) most of the officers and captains and generals in stuff used it tho

-a greek

[Fear2288]

I guess I never see the hoplites use them b/c I never take them out of formation attack.

I'm playing as Macedon right now and took a look at a couple units during battles. The kopis definitely shows up on the Companion Cav and the hoplite unit commanders (interestingly no sheathed sword on the hoplite models) while the javalinmen and slingers had the xiphos - not the leaf-shaped version though, there are something like 3 or 4 different variants, but the more long knife looking kind.

I'll play around with more units tomorrow and see what I can find. I'm interested to see if they may have thrown a makhaira in there too (very similar looking to the kopis).

Either way it's not a HUGE historical inaccuracy - it's not like they're using Roman gladii or something. Redneck brings up a good point too, while the different variants of the Xiphos were more common, especially in the hands of hoplites, it wasn't an absolute standard.

Admittedly my knowledge of the Greeks at this point in time is a little above basic (pre-Alexander, Greco-Persian Wars Greece is more my thing) but IIRC the Greeks did not have standardized equipment and standing military forces like the Romnas started doing post-Marian Reforms.

If it worked like it did during the Greco-Persian Wars (5th c. BC) that means that each man was responsible for buying and maintaining his own weapons and armor. Obviously there was some basic level of standards - you couldn't be a hoplite if you showed up without a spear, shield, and sword - but the specific make and model of your weapons and armor was more-than-likely dependent on what you could afford or had on hand.

Xenophon makes mention of the kopis in regards to cavalry but he actually is merely suggesting that it would best serve a man on horseback - he's not actually saying that the kopis = cavalry sword.

So essentially it boils down not to CA using the wrong weapon but using the uncommon kopis over the more common leaf-shaped xiphos.

[Berserk Belta]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Redneck:

The main thing that irritates me is the ridiculous uniformity there is with the Germans. Also, their hair. Do they have Paul Mitchell salons in Suebia?

Nothing wrong with their hair except it could be a little longer. That's a Suebian knot, that is.

[Fear2288]

Thought I'd necro this...

So I was playing as Egypt the other day and was fighting a battle against the Seleucids.

Lo and behold there it was - the leaf shaped Xiphos in the hands of some, not all, but some of the Seleucid Peltasts. You have to take a good look at it b/c at first you'll think it's just a straight edge but it does have the slight, double-sided curve to it.

[Wayz]

I prefer the Kopis. nasty looking thing ;)

[Captain Michael Vulpi]

Ok well easy example is with the socii units they carry a mix of gladius and xiphos and to be honest owning a variety of weapons including a xiphos,gladius,kopis and a spatha among others I find the xiphos to be better designed than the gladius because of its slight but effective hand guard and hoplites had to buy their own equipment so it would be a mix of equipment only common thing is the hoplon shield and a spear

[Itharus]

Makes sense for the Socii. They're auxilliaries, no? Probably a few Samnites amongst 'em :)