Hastati is overpowerly too defensive

[Teutonic Ritterin]

1 hastati can hold a Silver Shield Swordsmen for 3 minutes,and kills 60 Silvershields.
Hastati cost 350
Silvershield cost at least more or less 1000
is Roman Soldier are so durable?

[Salty Nobody]

Well, at first I didn't believe you so I did some tests in custom battle.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=673517011

Sure enough, the 350 cost Hatsati held for a long time and killed half my 1280 cost Silver Shields. However, the battle difficulty was Very Hard and the AI got significant buffs. On lower difficulties or against another player the Hatsati wouldn't do nearly as well. Also, I had formation attack on like the AI did with their units to have a more equal test.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=673517078

Using Silver Shields like they are supposed to be used with formation attack off and using shieldwall gave much more favorable results. I had less losses and the battle lasted a minute less.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=673522038

And on normal difficulty even with formation attack on and no Shieldwall the Hatsati were obliterated. So don't worry about balance unless you were playing on Easy or something :p

[Bananaedmonkey]

what does formation attack effect?

[Welsh Dragon]

Thing is 1 vs 1 pairings only tell part of the story, as Total War battles are usually about using a combination of units. Sometimes the best way to take out a unit is not a direct head to head, but by using several different types of units.

Another factor is their respective factions. Hastati are meant to form the main body of an early Roman Army, a faction that is basically built around their sword and shield equipped infantry, and whose military infrastructure is also built around creating and supporting that type of unit. (They also rely on Auxilliaries to fill most other roles.)

Whilst Silver Shield Swordsmen only represent one elite specialised part of the Seleucid Army, an army that uses other units like Pikes and Hoplites as the main body of it's army, as well as Elephants, Chariots, Cavalry, various ranged units etc. Their military infrastucture is in some ways more diverse, as it needs to support all those different types of units, and at the same time focused on spears/pikes and shields, not swords and shields.

Or to put it another way, an Elite Seleucid Swordsman may only be as good as an average Roman one, but may cost a lot more to train and equip because they don't have the focused training and infrastructure.

Hastati are very cost effective, sure, and maybe from a purely numerical standpoint they are undercosted. But when you include other factors like faction identity and intended playstyle, I think that may help explain the difference in costs for similar stats.

All the Best,

Welsh Dragon.

[Salty Nobody]

Originally posted by Welsh Dragon:

Another factor is their respective factions.
Welsh Dragon.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Rome only gets a non combantant half cav unit as their general while other factions get a nasty elite unit to work with. I atribute many roman units being slightly undercost to this as well.

[Teutonic Ritterin]

also I've been using the Tiplex acies (5 Velites 4 Hastati 4 Principes 4 Triarii 2 Equites 1 general)
and the enemy never ever reach my triarii,they just lost many fatigue while fighting my hastati,and rekt by the principes.
I even change my Trarii to be Flank Watcher(Units that watch for flanking units,usually cavalry are better,but I choose the best infantry I can recruit,they also will become the flanker if the enemy flanker is shattered),rather than have my money wasted

[Welsh Dragon]

Originally posted by Vanilla:

also I've been using the Tiplex acies (5 Velites 4 Hastati 4 Principes 4 Triarii 2 Equites 1 general)
and the enemy never ever reach my triarii,they just lost many fatigue while fighting my hastati,and rekt by the principes.
I even change my Trarii to be Flank Watcher(Units that watch for flanking units,usually cavalry are better,but I choose the best infantry I can recruit,they also will become the flanker if the enemy flanker is shattered),rather than have my money wasted

That basically means you are playing the Romans "right" (aka historically.)

The Hastati and Principes did most of the fighting. The Triarii were the last line, the force you sent in to either mop up the survivors once they'd tired themselves out fighting the Hastati and Principe, or to make a last stand when your other forces were broken. In many battles historically they never even got involved in the fighting because the work was already done before they would need to be committed. That's the reason that the expression "going to the triarii" or " 'It comes down to the triarii' (res ad triarios venit)" came to mean to go to the bitter end.

Originally posted by Tactician:

Originally posted by Welsh Dragon:

Another factor is their respective factions.
Welsh Dragon.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Rome only gets a non combantant half cav unit as their general while other factions get a nasty elite unit to work with. I atribute many roman units being slightly undercost to this as well.

That could be another factor yes. Also that Rome are "the stars" of the game and so things are weighted a bit in their favour.

Hope that helps.

All the Best,

Welsh Dragon.

[Teutonic Ritterin]

The only thing I hate about rome is...Velites
all of your units are overpowerly defensive,but you only got velites as a standard ranged infantry( I almost hate using auxillary,due to the limitation)

[Barrelz]

Originally posted by Vanilla:

The only thing I hate about rome is...Velites
all of your units are overpowerly defensive,but you only got velites as a standard ranged infantry( I almost hate using auxillary,due to the limitation) [/quote]

On my current campaign I am using a mod that adds Roman Archers to the auxillary camps. I got fed with how pants Velites were for range and dont get me started with the leves, only use for them is cannon fodder. I tend to use them early on to engage charging Cav (in melee) so that my more precious units dont take the brunt of the charge. Works a treat :)

[Teutonic Ritterin]

Originally posted by Both Barrelz:

Originally posted by Vanilla:

The only thing I hate about rome is...Velites
all of your units are overpowerly defensive,but you only got velites as a standard ranged infantry( I almost hate using auxillary,due to the limitation) [/quote]

On my current campaign I am using a mod that adds Roman Archers to the auxillary camps. I got fed with how pants Velites were for range and dont get me started with the leves, only use for them is cannon fodder. [/quote]

I'm using larger unit size mod(200 Soldier for Infantry,150 for Ranged Infantry,100 for Cavalry)
and the Roman Archer mod only makes the roman archer having 90 men,instead of 150

[Fiona]

To be fair most roman units can go into super testudo and have so much block chance that sometimes, wasting the enemy's ranged ammo is a viable strategy. That said their shields and armour is so high that sometimes ignoring ranged units head on is equally viable. And Velities can do part of the soaking of archers and run up to them and throw javelins. Sure they aren't like Peltasts and their silly 50+ armor and huge shields, but say a 3 or so units of velities can easily survive showers of arrows and still reach the archers and throw a few javelins. And during this time your infantry can move up without the fear of getting shot to death.

[SuperGorp]

Originally posted by Vanilla:

The only thing I hate about rome is...Velites
all of your units are overpowerly defensive,but you only got velites as a standard ranged infantry( I almost hate using auxillary,due to the limitation) [/quote]
I almost always use my Velites as a flanking unit (they do pretty good damage shooting from behind their target) or shooting from a high ground advantage. They also make good bait since they're so cheap, "use them and don't be afraid to lose them"

[Teutonic Ritterin]

Originally posted by SuperGorp:

Originally posted by Vanilla:

The only thing I hate about rome is...Velites
all of your units are overpowerly defensive,but you only got velites as a standard ranged infantry( I almost hate using auxillary,due to the limitation) [/quote]
I almost always use my Velites as a flanking unit (they do pretty good damage shooting from behind their target) or shooting from a high ground advantage. They also make good bait since they're so cheap, "use them and don't be afraid to lose them" [/quote]

well,I got some phobia of losing my Ranged infantry,most battle where I should lose was won because "I was protecting my ranged infantry,adnd that makes the enemy rout their flanker"
my battles were won not by Ranged units,but by protecting those ranged units.

[Teutonic Ritterin]

in the Prologue you got an unit of levy slinger,why rome don't has levy slinger?!

[Fiona]

Originally posted by Vanilla:

Originally posted by SuperGorp:

I almost always use my Velites as a flanking unit (they do pretty good damage shooting from behind their target) or shooting from a high ground advantage. They also make good bait since they're so cheap, "use them and don't be afraid to lose them"

well,I got some phobia of losing my Ranged infantry,most battle where I should lose was won because "I was protecting my ranged infantry,adnd that makes the enemy rout their flanker"
my battles were won not by Ranged units,but by protecting those ranged units.

It's the point of knowning when to sacrifice certain units to achieve something else I suppose. Velities are so cheap, cheaper than say Libyan Peltasts or Bactrian Peltasts, that losing a few of them is not really as big as an impact or issue. Sure archers and slingers can win you matches in the late game, peltasts have their uses, and losing some velities to keep just a few of your heavier roman men alive seems like a better trade.
Besides, by distracting enemy archers on your javelin units, you can move infantry up, cavalry to the rear or use longer ranged mercenaries to kill the archers.
But if the enemy doesn't fire at your javelin units, that means they can close in and quickily kill the enemy's archer.
Or if they can try charging cavalry, in which case, you can retreat into range of your roman pilla, or move cheap spearmen right behind your velites.

[Teutonic Ritterin]

Originally posted by Fiona フィオナ:

Originally posted by Vanilla:

well,I got some phobia of losing my Ranged infantry,most battle where I should lose was won because "I was protecting my ranged infantry,adnd that makes the enemy rout their flanker"
my battles were won not by Ranged units,but by protecting those ranged units.

It's the point of knowning when to sacrifice certain units to achieve something else I suppose. Velities are so cheap, cheaper than say Libyan Peltasts or Bactrian Peltasts, that losing a few of them is not really as big as an impact or issue. Sure archers and slingers can win you matches in the late game, peltasts have their uses, and losing some velities to keep just a few of your heavier roman men alive seems like a better trade.
Besides, by distracting enemy archers on your javelin units, you can move infantry up, cavalry to the rear or use longer ranged mercenaries to kill the archers.
But if the enemy doesn't fire at your javelin units, that means they can close in and quickily kill the enemy's archer.
Or if they can try charging cavalry, in which case, you can retreat into range of your roman pilla, or move cheap spearmen right behind your velites.

but everytime in campaign,when you got blocked by the enemy army where you want to expand,you need to has Ranged units for siege,not Melee units,so that's why my phobia of protecting even the cheapest unit takes place...