How the hell do you use hoplites?

[Molester of all Eggs]

I have a dilemma about hoplites. I'd love to use em but stat wise, they have lower damage then melee units. There really doesn't seem like a choice when it comes down to melee or hoplites. Since melee have better damage, they'd be the obvious choice. I understand that hoplite phalanx does a lot but I still feel like swords are better. As for nations who don't harbor good swordsmen like pontus, how do you beat nations like rome who have superb swordsmen? Besides that I would just like to know how hoplites are properly used.

[Messsucher]

They are used defensively and flanks protected. When enemy melee blobs with them charge with naked swords or falxmen or similar high charge bonus troops on enemy's back. People would say no to this, saying you should use cavalry. But your cavalry can be hunting archers and engaging enemy cavalry, and be tired when they eventually come hammer the infantry. In the meanwhile high charge offensive melee has demolished the enemy infantry from behind. This I have used to devastating effect, though it requires quite more micro.

[Wolfsun]

IMO - don't bother. Hoplites suck. They aren't very maneuverable at all. If they get flanked they become mostly dead pretty quick. A cavalry charge to their rear is devastating. However, With good planning and protecting their flanks they can be useful against non Roman troops - maybe - depending on what they are up against - but why bother when there are much more useful units that are more versatile (and some cheaper) than a hoplite unit is.

Hoplites were very effective IRL until the Romans came along and figured out how to kick their behinds into the after life.

Hoplite treatment in Total War is IMO fairly historical and that reflects their less than usefulness post Roman.

[Salty Nobody]

Both hoplite wall and shield wall are useless, the men shuffling around while the enemy is taking swings at them to maintain the formation does more damage to your unit than the defensive buffs provide.

Hoplites have a a bonus vs large, which would make them better than swords against cavalry except that most swords get precursors or pilla and hoplites don't.

Hoplites do have decent charge bonuses though, so they can actually do some damage to sword infantry if you get your charges in. Hoplite factions are also usually pike factions, and pikes will rip swords apart when the swords are caught in front. Many hoplite factions also get easy access to shock cavalry and hard hitting missile units, which can also be used to wreck units pinned down by hoplites.

Some hoplites are better than others. Most elite hoplites can hold their own against swords of similar cost and Sparta in particular is the equal of Rome in an infantry fight with anything Spartan Hoplite level and above. Sparta is actually one of my picks against Rome in 16000 fund multiplayer battles and I think I have a 100% success rate so far.

I would be hesitant fight Rome with Pontus. If you do fight Rome with Pontus, you will need to rely on your elite shock cav, bronze shields and chariots to pull a win.

[NekRon99]

Hoplites are like other spears in that they are a holding force used to pin down the enemy for hammer strikes from a flank or rear. they arent meant to win the battle but engage the enemy as long as possible while others win the battle. They are not as static as a pike wall and have combat ability superior to one which makes them perfect for their role. That said, you need other troops to complete your army to win.

[Aslan Ponto]

Provided that they have the "expert charge defense" ability they are pretty useful if you are fighting against a faction which relies on strong shock cavalry/infantry. Illyrian Hoplites, Illyrian Noble Hoplites, Shield Bearers...I've a great respect for the insane amount of pain a unit of hoplites may suffer before fleeing, which gives you time for winning at the other flank or whatever. The versatile and faster Thureo Spears don't have a chance against good quality shock cavalry.

Nevertheless, spear units which have both that ability and throw javelins are way superior to any kind of hoplites. In addition to this, you must understand well how that mechanic works, since as long as fire at will is activated, units will perform worse when they receive the charge (they wouldn't be properly braced).

[Archaon The Never-Chosen]

if you are talking campaign map hellenic factions are better off using hoplites over swords because all their buffs are focused on spear units. in mp battles? theros spears are often a better flank guard and you prob still be using thorax swords unless you are sparta. their defensive ability is overall super exceptional and their ability to stall units much more expensive then them isn't something to take lightly, they are also amazing ranged fire sponges since they have high shield and armour rating for their cost.

[TheOneWhoGotAway]

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

I have a dilemma about hoplites. I'd love to use em but stat wise, they have lower damage then melee units. There really doesn't seem like a choice when it comes down to melee or hoplites. Since melee have better damage, they'd be the obvious choice. I understand that hoplite phalanx does a lot but I still feel like swords are better. As for nations who don't harbor good swordsmen like pontus, how do you beat nations like rome who have superb swordsmen? Besides that I would just like to know how hoplites are properly used.

I'm currently fighting Rome during my Sparta playthrough. Pikeman are extremely useful for stopping a charge, I always carry a couple in my stacks. Hoplites are good for holding positions and, if you are clever enough, to bait and box an opponent in. As Sparta can easily get Super Heavy Hoplites, their melee defence and morale are high. In urban maps, I am able to hold a passages with a couple spartan hoplites against a blob charge. Using cavalry to attack isolated ranged units after the initial charge is also a bonus.

With abilities enabled, it further improves their defensive focus. They can be easily flanked, so grouping them together on offset angles helps mitigate that. Javelin units should be used to quickly respond to units flanking. Citizen Cavalry is a good all-rounder, just not against heavy+ units. IF and only IF spear units are engaged with hoplites or other units, then you can charge with them.

Hoplites core focus/ability is the phalanx/phalanges. It focuses on defence and using spears/polearms to keep opponents at range. Historically, Macedonian cavalry were able to quickly flank and attack the rear of a phalanx, quickly rendering it useless.

Rome did adopt this tactic, but after discovering it's flaws developed and adopted a three line formation known as the "Legion". After Rome conquered Greece, any and all Greek units raised would adopt this tactic. Having said that, it wasn't cast away, it was replaced with the Macedonian phalanx. 8 rows across and 16 ranks deep, it's main focus was the bulk/grouping of pikemen/hoplites. Typically, the first several ranks would lower and lock pikes, making it foolish to attack from the front. The extra ranks had pikes at an incline to make ready if needed.


So to conclude, only use the phalanx when you KNOW you cannot be flanked easily and able to cover your rear, such as urban maps. If you do use pikes as the first unit of contact, then back it up with hoplites.

Edit: I am a bit of history dork, so I know my stuff.

[JusTheory]

I use hoplites to protect my pike lines or to hold my line for my missle/calvary advantage to play through. Think of them as a shield that requires a sword and you will be able to use them effectively.

[Abu Hajaar]

They’re really good against AI because AI is retarded but against a human they suck because a human isn’t going to just charge them.

Go to strong hoplite based army formation for creaming the AI:
[Cav swords hoplites pikes hoplites swords cav]
[artillery]

Those are two distinguished lines there but I want to point out that this formation focuses on a strong center and intends to mash up the enemy all at the center with the pikes and slowly begin closing them in on at least three sides until the cavalry gets cleared up, at which point it’s 4. The way to do that is to keep the pikes slightly more forward then the rest of the line. The AI will charge because of the artillery and pile right into the closest units which are the pikes. The pikes hold their position against massive amounts of men and essentially just wear them out. The hoplites are on the sides because they are slightly more maneuverable and not as prone to getting flanked and may find themselves holding the line too. The sword infantry will be even further back from them to ensure they don’t get wrapped up in a fight. Basically just wait a while until the enemy is tired from fighting your phalanx units and then circle around with the swords and cavalry. Really easy and effective against AI. I’ve used it to beat basically anything when I played as Macedon with DEI mod and on hard. Although I reverted the battle difficulty to normal.

It was so effective against AI that it make me think that artillery needs to be nerfed and the AI response to it needs to be corrected. It’s only easy to bait them into that situation because you have a single artillery unit and all the AI does is rush forward as fast as they can. I think artillery should be made to hit specific locations and take long time and ranging shots to change locations. It’s more realistic and it would make them not very effective in the field which is also more realistic. Because they are not as decisive in the field, then there would be no need for the AI to just panic and order an all out charge from across the map.

[Molester of all Eggs]

Originally posted by Abu Hajaar:

They’re really good against AI because AI is retarded but against a human they suck because a human isn’t going to just charge them.

Go to strong hoplite based army formation for creaming the AI:
[Cav swords hoplites pikes hoplites swords cav]
[artillery]

Those are two distinguished lines there but I want to point out that this formation focuses on a strong center and intends to mash up the enemy all at the center with the pikes and slowly begin closing them in on at least three sides until the cavalry gets cleared up, at which point it’s 4. The way to do that is to keep the pikes slightly more forward then the rest of the line. The AI will charge because of the artillery and pile right into the closest units which are the pikes. The pikes hold their position against massive amounts of men and essentially just wear them out. The hoplites are on the sides because they are slightly more maneuverable and not as prone to getting flanked and may find themselves holding the line too. The sword infantry will be even further back from them to ensure they don’t get wrapped up in a fight. Basically just wait a while until the enemy is tired from fighting your phalanx units and then circle around with the swords and cavalry. Really easy and effective against AI. I’ve used it to beat basically anything when I played as Macedon with DEI mod and on hard. Although I reverted the battle difficulty to normal.

It was so effective against AI that it make me think that artillery needs to be nerfed and the AI response to it needs to be corrected. It’s only easy to bait them into that situation because you have a single artillery unit and all the AI does is rush forward as fast as they can. I think artillery should be made to hit specific locations and take long time and ranging shots to change locations. It’s more realistic and it would make them not very effective in the field which is also more realistic. Because they are not as decisive in the field, then there would be no need for the AI to just panic and order an all out charge from across the map.

I agree, the AI in this game is more A than I

[Actionjackson]

The pike infantry in DeI works brutaly well. I took quiet some losses as rome fighting epirus, i won in the end but they are just impossible to attack from their front.

I know you possibly talk about stock game, cant say anything about that, have not played that in years. If you like pikes to works well and want to play hellenic faction, give DeI a try... however it is more complex compared to stock game.

[Ragnar]

Hoplites are super tanky, they're there to take the damage and wear the enemy down, they rarely are the decisive force. You have to use other units to do the killing, like peltasts or cavalry.

I am in the middle of an Ardiaei campaign which forces you to rely on hoplites and combined with a flank of Illyrian Marines (basically Thureos Spears) and hidden Illyrian Raiders to go round the flanks they're invaluable. The Raiders get most of the kills, even though they're a 400 gold unit because the enemy units get tired fighting the hoplites.

Hoplites alone will just get worn down eventually, especially against swords. But in hoplite wall with flanks guarded they'll fight for a really long time.

[PrivateXTC]

Hoplites when defending during a siege are like brick walls to the enemy. You can leave them defending a narrow pass, go make a coffee, come back and they will still be holding the enemy off. In an open field I'd choose an elite unit of swordsmen over them though.

[Smokedice]

They are a standard backbone unit of pretty much every faction except Rome. Hold the line with them, and if the enemy attacks your hoplite line with an anti infantry unit like swords or superior spears, hope you brought cavalry for a rear charge

[Molester of all Eggs]

Originally posted by Rawfire:

They are a standard backbone unit of pretty much every faction except Rome. Hold the line with them, and if the enemy attacks your hoplite line with an anti infantry unit like swords or superior spears, hope you brought cavalry for a rear charge

whats wrong with the roman triarii