How to beat royal peltasts?

[CarolusMagnus]

Noob Rome player here, I'd like to ask a question about royal peltasts. This is just from experiencing a handful of custom battles with Macedon, but they seem to be capable of holding up or even overpowering anything below praetors. Is this true? What and what couldn't actually go toe-to-toe with royal peltasts in Rome's melee infantry roster? Can you suggest tactics in taking them down except flanking and charging the rear, like unit-specific tactics?

Thanks!

[Iron Ben]

Royal Peltasts are the Elite of the elite, they will mess your day up if you try them one on one.

Either weaken them before engaging in hand to hand combat, or you'll have to overwhelm them from all sides to stand a chance.

You could charge them with cavalry over and over, but if you get entangled, you'll most likely lose that unit as Rome's cav units are nothing to write home about...

In a GC, auxiliaries will fare better against them, mainly Cretan archers and Rhodian slingers to deal with them at range. The very best would probably be some Cav archers, but those are pretty far away from Rome...


^_^

[CarolusMagnus]

Originally posted by Iron Ben:

Royal Peltasts are the Elite of the elite, they will mess your day up if you try them one on one.

Either weaken them before engaging in hand to hand combat, or you'll have to overwhelm them from all sides to stand a chance.

You could charge them with cavalry over and over, but if you get entangled, you'll most likely lose that unit as Rome's cav units are nothing to write home about...

In a GC, auxiliairies will fare better against them, mainly Cretan archers and Rhodian slingers to deal with them at range. The very best would probably be some Cav archers, but those are pretty far away from Rome...


^_^

I'm only playing custom battles atm (read: slow exam death), and I don't have all the DLCs, so I don't know/have some of those units you mentioned. But yeah, what I'm doing for now is just that, with velites, balearics and syrians. Cavalry makes things more complex tho, so that's why I wanted to know more about royal peltasts, to know how to deal with them with infantry.

To my credit (or discredit, since I'm only at normal difficulty), I never lost any of those battles. However, they're all close victories.

I've read a couple tips online, such as using scorpions, elephants, shock cav, and aiming for weaker units for morale damage. What's your take on these?

And a pretty dumb question: What's the difference between light, very light, etc missile troops? Is it their armour or is it their missile?

Thanks again!

[Iron Ben]

Auxiliary troops are mustered from the very nations the Roman Empire conquers, and they differ depending on the region where you're trying to recruit them from.

IE: Cretan archers are the very best archers money can buy, but they can only be recruited from Hellas province (Greece). If you'd prefer horse archers, you'd have to go as far as the very easternmost regions of the map, as thats where they'd be available.

But I believe Rome only has access to auxiliary troops in a Campaign, so thats not really helping you out much...


Hence why I suggested cavalry charges or reducing their numbers prior to the assault with the help of missile troops. Heck, even a few lucky shots with a ballista could do the trick.

If you're facing only a few of those Royal Peltasts in a bigger army, it'd probably be wise to kill whatever's flimsier and easier to get rid of first. The loss of their comrades/general will have an effect on their morale, which can help turn the tide in your favor...



Ps: light and very light = sh!ty armor. Those are the guys you use to harrass and bait your foe into following them, as they usually move pretty fast and have good stamina to back it up.

You NEVER want to charge these guys into a pitched battle / stay still when under fire or you'll lose them in seconds...


^_^

[bbolto]

Iron Ben's advice is good.

Royal Peltasts don't much like being charged by heavy cavalry, which admittedly as Rome you don't have a lot of – socii equites extraordinarii are your best in custom battles I think. You also don't want to eat a volley of javelins as you're charging in.

If you're trying to chew them up with archers, you probably want to use heavy shot, it helps a lot against well-armored units.

Other than that, I would try to brick them with some legionaries or similar until another unit can help them out. Will the legionaries stomp them? No, but they should hold out for some time.

"Light," "Very Light," etc. specifically refers to the mass of your units, which affects their speed on the field, the rate at which running around tires them, the strength of their charges, and their ability to stand up to a charge. It is usually correlated with their armor but not always – there are some "light" units in the game that pack a lot of armor.

[Salty Nobody]

Royal Peltasts are only "good" if they are able to get their javelin volleys in. If they do not get that in they are noticably squishy compared to other elite melee units of similar cost and they do not throw precursor javelins like normal melee units do when charging. Add to that the problem that when used by players Royal Peltasts have a good chance to not get their own charge in when trying to sit back and shoot enemy melee, due to needing to be stationary to fire, and having melee mode toggled off should the player wish to tell them what to shoot.... I have always been unimpressed with this unit and in my own experience they suck.

To beat them use pretty much any melee unit in the high 800s custom battle fund range or above to charge them before they get any volleys off and the Peltasts should lose 1v1. Do not try to outshoot them, that gives them time to shoot back. Their extra javelins are factored into their pricing and they become just an undepowered melee unit for the cost if you get in their face before they can use them.

[CarolusMagnus]

Originally posted by Iron Ben:

Auxiliary troops are mustered from the very nations the Roman Empire conquers, and they differ depending on the region where you're trying to recruit them from.

IE: Cretan archers are the very best archers money can buy, but they can only be recruited from Hellas province (Greece). If you'd prefer horse archers, you'd have to go as far as the very easternmost regions of the map, as thats where they'd be available.

But I believe Rome only has access to auxiliary troops in a Campaign, so thats not really helping you out much...


Hence why I suggested cavalry charges or reducing their numbers prior to the assault with the help of missile troops. Heck, even a few lucky shots with a ballista could do the trick.

If you're facing only a few of those Royal Peltasts in a bigger army, it'd probably be wise to kill whatever's flimsier and easier to get rid of first. The loss of their comrades/general will have an effect on their morale, which can help turn the tide in your favor...



Ps: light and very light = sh!ty armor. Those are the guys you use to harrass and bait your foe into following them, as they usually move pretty fast and have good stamina to back it up.

You NEVER want to charge these guys into a pitched battle / stay still when under fire or you'll lose them in seconds...


^_^

Originally posted by bbolto:

Iron Ben's advice is good.

Royal Peltasts don't much like being charged by heavy cavalry, which admittedly as Rome you don't have a lot of – socii equites extraordinarii are your best in custom battles I think. You also don't want to eat a volley of javelins as you're charging in.

If you're trying to chew them up with archers, you probably want to use heavy shot, it helps a lot against well-armored units.

Other than that, I would try to brick them with some legionaries or similar until another unit can help them out. Will the legionaries stomp them? No, but they should hold out for some time.

"Light," "Very Light," etc. specifically refers to the mass of your units, which affects their speed on the field, the rate at which running around tires them, the strength of their charges, and their ability to stand up to a charge. It is usually correlated with their armor but not always – there are some "light" units in the game that pack a lot of armor.

Originally posted by Tactician:

Royal Peltasts are only "good" if they are able to get their javelin volleys in. If they do not get that in they are noticably squishy compared to other elite melee units of similar cost and they do not throw precursor javelins like normal melee units do when charging. Add to that the problem that when used by players Royal Peltasts have a good chance to not get their own charge in when trying to sit back and shoot enemy melee, due to needing to be stationary to fire, and having melee mode toggled off should the player wish to tell them what to shoot.... I have always been unimpressed with this unit and in my own experience they suck.

To beat them use pretty much any melee unit in the high 800s custom battle fund range or above to charge them before they get any volleys off and the Peltasts should lose 1v1. Do not try to outshoot them, that gives them time to shoot back. Their extra javelins are factored into their pricing and they become just an undepowered melee unit for the cost if you get in their face before they can use them.

These are very good info. I'll try playing another custom battle then, try these ideas out.

Thanks!

[Falesz]

I've not read the other answers cause I'm short on time, so please excuse me for repeated ideas.
Since you are a new player, I'll try to give you a different perspective on how to deal with this problem.

Your problem is that you have a melee unit in the enemy's line that is just too strong to be dealt with with your own melee units in any cost-effective manner.
So you have a number of options:
1. You could concentrate missile fire on them to cause casualties without them having a chance to fight back. Field artillery is excellent for lowering the numbers of enemy units before the battle lines meet, and if you are up for some intense micro-managing of units, you can use archers and slingers to keep them constantly under fire until they all die off or shatter. I would not recommend using javelin-throwers against the Royal Peltasts in particular, since the peltasts are themselves javelin-throwers and thus you would trade fire with them (thats a thing to generally always be avoided, trading fire)
2. You could just try to avoid them as best as you can for the longest time possible and cause quick routs at weaker spots of the enemy battle line. The "Army losses" morale penalty (that I'm sure you're familiar with) is impossible to compensate for any units, so if you manage to kill or rout enough lower-tier enemy units, the Royal Peltasts will just shatter themselves after a short time without fighting. There is even a tip in the game for this, something like "in the perfect battle, you do not fight the strongest units of the enemy at all".
This however is not effective against experienced players, there is hardly any way you could avoid a well-commanded elite unit for the entirety of a battle. The AI however is stupid enough to be exploited into wasting their elite units.
3. If you absolutely need to engage them in melee, go at them strong and fast. Get a strong defensive unit to pin them down. Then flank them with offensive units, get in their backs, make use of your charge bonus as often as you can, use the hammer and anvil tactics with your cavalry. Cavalry, being fast, can repeatedly withdraw and charge again into the fight, so they will constantly benefit from their charge bonus.

[CarolusMagnus]

Originally posted by Bonus:

I've not read the other answers cause I'm short on time, so please excuse me for repeated ideas.
Since you are a new player, I'll try to give you a different perspective on how to deal with this problem.

Your problem is that you have a melee unit in the enemy's line that is just too strong to be dealt with with your own melee units in any cost-effective manner.
So you have a number of options:
1. You could concentrate missile fire on them to cause casualties without them having a chance to fight back. Field artillery is excellent for lowering the numbers of enemy units before the battle lines meet, and if you are up for some intense micro-managing of units, you can use archers and slingers to keep them constantly under fire until they all die off or shatter. I would not recommend using javelin-throwers against the Royal Peltasts in particular, since the peltasts are themselves javelin-throwers and thus you would trade fire with them (thats a thing to generally always be avoided, trading fire)
2. You could just try to avoid them as best as you can for the longest time possible and cause quick routs at weaker spots of the enemy battle line. The "Army losses" morale penalty (that I'm sure you're familiar with) is impossible to compensate for any units, so if you manage to kill or rout enough lower-tier enemy units, the Royal Peltasts will just shatter themselves after a short time without fighting. There is even a tip in the game for this, something like "in the perfect battle, you do not fight the strongest units of the enemy at all".
This however is not effective against experienced players, there is hardly any way you could avoid a well-commanded elite unit for the entirety of a battle. The AI however is stupid enough to be exploited into wasting their elite units.
3. If you absolutely need to engage them in melee, go at them strong and fast. Get a strong defensive unit to pin them down. Then flank them with offensive units, get in their backs, make use of your charge bonus as often as you can, use the hammer and anvil tactics with your cavalry. Cavalry, being fast, can repeatedly withdraw and charge again into the fight, so they will constantly benefit from their charge bonus.

I'm still not capable of doing #2. Still not sure how to maneuver infantry to shatter weaker units.

My usual formation atm is to have a whole uniform line of melee and spear infantry pin all of the enemy infantry down, with a couple spears and my best melee in the flanks, missile troops some ways in the frontmost for skirmishing, and cav and general in the back. The spears prepare for the AI's usual cavalry charges in the flanks. When these AI cav are dispersed and we're well into the battle, most of the AI's infantry already occupied, I have my best melee (at this point just standing around) get out through the flanks, towards the pinned AI infantries' rears, and then charge. At the same time, my own cav is also moving through the flanks, towards the enemy's missile units.

If I'm the attacker, I use the missile units to provoke the defenders.

Is that good enough? Bad in the long run, when I actually play campaign?

And thanks too!

[bbolto]

Yeah, that's the basic idea!

You probably don't want your skirmish line too far out in front, if the AI brings cavalry they like to throw it straight at your skirmishers and you want them to be able to retreat to safety, but yeah, that's more or less basically how I do it.

[CarolusMagnus]

Originally posted by bbolto:

Yeah, that's the basic idea!

You probably don't want your skirmish line too far out in front, if the AI brings cavalry they like to throw it straight at your skirmishers and you want them to be able to retreat to safety, but yeah, that's more or less basically how I do it.

Nice. Sometimes, though, some AI cav circle around and try attacking the general, but I have some spear and cav in place.

[Jeruzalem]

actually, i find that weakening royal peltasts with archers seem like a good counter. when peltasts are throwing their spears, they tend to ignore the fact they have a shield. then charge them with gladiators.

[Iron Ben]

Originally posted by bbolto:

"Light," "Very Light," etc. specifically refers to the mass of your units, which affects their speed on the field, the rate at which running around tires them, the strength of their charges, and their ability to stand up to a charge. It is usually correlated with their armor but not always – there are some "light" units in the game that pack a lot of armor.

Light and very light = sh!ty armor <---I meant this more as a general rule than an absolute.

Here are 2 exceptions I thought of, off the top of my head:
-Suebi's light cavalry
-Athen's light hoplites

Theres quite a few more actually that I cant be bothered to look up right now.

Even thought these exceptions do have good armor rating, it still isn't a good idea to YOLO them into the thick of it. They're usually meant to fight on the outskirts of the battle, taking out soft targets and finishing off routing/broken units, or going after skimishers, since they usually have good speed and stamina. Their armor will let them eat a few spears/arrows without too much losses as you're closing in for the kill.


^_^

[bbolto]

Right, yeah, I was thinking mainly of the Suebi when I was making a distinction between "light" and lightly armored, a lot of their high-end spear infantry like spear wall and wodanaz spears are classed as light. And you can put those boys in the thick of it

[Iron Ben]

Originally posted by bbolto:

Right, yeah, I was thinking mainly of the Suebi when I was making a distinction between "light" and lightly armored, a lot of their high-end spear infantry like spear wall and wodanaz spears are classed as light. And you can put those boys in the thick of it

Yeah, them Suebi definitely are an odd beast; they're considered barbarians, but also have access to some technologies (arty, boats) that barbarians usually dont.

Furthermore, most of their roster is in a weird place;

-Wodanaz spears with light armor, but become tanks once they get into shield wall formation
-Light cavalry that sports extra armor and with whom you CAN charge in without crossing your fingers as to if they'll survive said charge or not
-Unique support units with fear abilities / morale boosting abilities
-Night Raids
-Berserkers which when unleashed, make folks around them crap their pants...

They most certainly are a "thinking out of the box" kind of faction; if you dont adapt to their unique fighting style and try to play them as just another barbarian tribe, you'll most likely fail.

But thats what makes them most interresting to play with IMO...




^_^