A series of questions

[Kung Flu]

I come from Rome 1 and new here to Rome 2
Why in mp am I seeing formations of 3 men deep?
What are the power factions of the game?
And finally am I to understand that a strong cav force in a Army is not nearly as beneficial as back in Rome 1?
All comments are apreciated, I'm really struggling to comprehend the meta in mp.

[Harper]

Good topics. Likewise, I also have played Rome 1, as well as Med 1, Med 2, and some Shogun 2, and enjoyed each one. There are several regulars on the forum who can have a valuable contribution in response to your question. Although I don't play MP, I will provide a partial response, and leave it to those with MP experience to fill in gaps and help you out.

"Formations of 3 men deep"
If your base unit size is 150 men, then that is a reasonable deployment (50 men wide). However, if your unit size is 450, then this is a very thin line (150 men wide), when your opponent is using a wedge of heavy cavalry (Noble Horse or Cataphracts) to punch a hole in the line and following up with heavy infantry. Also, depth and width of an infantry formation depends on experience and type of infantry, meaning if you have light infantry with no experience, then you are going to need more of them; but still they may be no match for an elite unit (say Royal Spartans) in a special formation (shield wall or phalanx). Not sure what problems that you have been seeing in your MP games. Can you add to your observation?

When I go up against AI barbarian armies, they extend and stretch their lines thin with the intent to envelop both ends of my line. This can force you to stretch yours thin also as a defensive counter, as well as use other counter measures such as cavalry maneuvers and setting shoulder tight end formations of infantry units at both ends of your line to break the effect of their line extension.

"Power factions of game"
Rome, Carthage, several Greek & Successor factions (Macedon, Athens, Seleucids, Egypt), and several competitive barbarian factions (Arverni, Iceni, and Suebi). The factions that I have played as so far: Rome, Massilia, Syracuse, Iceni, Skythia, Athens, Seleucids, Cimmeria, Macedon, and Baktria. Although its a tough start with the Seleucids, having multiple borders with warlike factions, weak satrapies for support, and initially a weak army, after the balance of economy and military settle out over many turns, they eventually turn out to have a very competitive army and empire.

"Cavalry Comparison"
There are several threads with multiple page & long debates in comparison of the cavalry of Rome 1 and 2. My personal choice: I like the control and functional features of the cavalry in Rome 2. When you have become familiar with Rome 2, let us know how it is going.

Enjoy the game.

[Imperator]

Originally posted by Harper:

When I go up against AI barbarian armies, they extend and stretch their lines thin with the intent to envelop both ends of my line. This can force you to stretch yours thin also as a defensive counter, as well as use other counter measures such as cavalry maneuvers and setting shoulder tight end formations of infantry units at both ends of your line to break the effect of their line extension.

the few times the enemy was threatening to envellope my line i took the two end units had them fall back a little to cover the artillery detachment and the new end units rotated them 45degrees and positioned them to form a sort of bracket [

and then when they were done pushing around my flanks and got stuck in those two units that fell back to guard the artillery were free to move in on the rear of the enemy hitting my flanks and then those 4 units could push out and around to the flanks and rear of the enemy repeating until the last of the enemy was surrounded.

of course i play as Rome and run with large numbers of heavy infantry as Rome actualy did...

10 Inf 2 Arty 4 Cav 3 Misl 1 Gen.

so this tactic might not work if you run a more mixed army / legion / horde or if you use fewer infantry. and this was before i was using the 480 man Cohorts (as historically accurate) and before i started using mods to increase the enemy unit sizes and of course AI and people are very different...

[Harper]

Originally posted by MARSHALL:

the few times the enemy was threatening to envellope my line i took the two end units had them fall back a little to cover the artillery detachment and the new end units rotated them 45degrees and positioned them to form a sort of bracket [

This is a good method that you described. I have also had to place infantry units at times to cover flanks of artillery, particulary when going up against AI armies heavy in cavalry (8 to 12 units). When AI opponent does something different, this forces a responsive counter measure.

Also, when the AI stretches their lines thin to force you to do the same, watch out for them to throw in an elite unit (Berserkers for example) into the mix, as you may need to reinforce that section.

[Kung Flu]

Thanks for the comments :) This game has taken a while to get used to, so many changes from Rome 1.
1 more thing are hoplites cost affective vs infranty? Im currently doing a alexander like campaign but with athens and wondering if its best to have hoplites or thorax swords vs inf. :)

[Harper]

In Rome 2, I find myself looking at unit stats (melee attack, melee defense, armour, health,...) and comparing units, since you continuously upgrade and replace units over multiple turns. The Honga Rome 2 website is useful for comparing various types of units, with their compare feature lining them up side by side, after you select.

http://www.honga.net/totalwar/rome2/?l=en

Hoplites and pikeman make a good solid infantry core for a Greek type army, setting cost aside, because of stats, armour, weapons, and formations available.

When you consider cost, you have to grow your army slowly when you play game without cost mods or you can overwhelm your budget, so mentally subtract the operating cost per unit from your budget as you add units, since the impact shows up after recruitment. After economy gets going then you can afford more of the elite units. Still even early in the campaign, it is good to have one or two elite units in your army, as you might have to square off against a barbarian Oathsworn unit or take them out with missile fire assist. Having a good mix of unit types in the infantry line can be beneficial, such as the Thorax swordsmen or Thureos spearmen. There are a lot of different options on how to mix up your infantry line.

The Thureos spearmen make good ends for your infantry line because they have good defensive skills with their "heavy" spears planted in the ground against an AI cavalry unit trying to hit your infantry line in the flanks, as well as side benefit of missile weapons ("light" javelin). With their javelin as a secondary weapon, they are a good counter measure to AI missile cavalry, also equipped with a javelin; but not effective against horse archers who have a greater range with their bows.

Likewise, the Thorax swordsmen can be useful in a melee situation where the AI opponent is trying to punch through the center of your line of hoplites. With two Thorax swordsmen units as penultimate ends, you can wheel them towards the flanks of the AI mass attacking the center of your hoplite line and effectively counter-attack. This takes advantage of their higher melee attack rating than the Thureos spearmen. Alternately, you can use them as a "behind the line" reserve, to plug a gap in your infantry line; and when on standby, use them for instance in protecting your archers or artillery. However, the Thorax swordsmen have less defensive skill against "heavy spear" cavalry when used as ends in the line, although they have missile capabilities ("light" javelin). For example, place the Thorax swordsmen as penultimate ends, with the Thureos spearmen as ends right next to them, then fill out the center of the infantry line with a mix of various grades of hoplites and pikemen (upgrading them as you go).

Best way to decide is to experiment with different arrangements with number of each type and their position in the infantry line, and sort out what works for you.

[Imperator]

Originally posted by Harper:

Originally posted by MARSHALL:

the few times the enemy was threatening to envellope my line i took the two end units had them fall back a little to cover the artillery detachment and the new end units rotated them 45degrees and positioned them to form a sort of bracket [

This is a good method that you described. I have also had to place infantry units at times to cover flanks of artillery, particulary when going up against AI armies heavy in cavalry (8 to 12 units). When AI opponent does something different, this forces a responsive counter measure.

Also, when the AI stretches their lines thin to force you to do the same, watch out for them to throw in an elite unit (Berserkers for example) into the mix, as you may need to reinforce that section.

if i go against a heavy cavalry army i push my back against the edge of the battlefield and set my infantry in a bow formation blocking my arty general and missiles from the enemy.

and i never stretch my line beyond a certain point as i tend to have very condenced lines to begin with.


These are my 1 Legion deployments
Standard Line
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=897118377
Light Flank Guard
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=897118408
Heavy Flank Guard
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=897118447
Anti-Cav
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=897118484
just put this one more in the corner.

and the 2 Legion Deployments just add into the ranks making them twice as big obviously, though there is one that puts the second legion directly behind the first one both in the standard line.

[Imperator]

Originally posted by Dara Ó Briain:

Thanks for the comments :) This game has taken a while to get used to, so many changes from Rome 1.
1 more thing are hoplites cost affective vs infranty? Im currently doing a alexander like campaign but with athens and wondering if its best to have hoplites or thorax swords vs inf. :)

Ive only ever played as Rome but early on when i have few Legions and i dont notice an enemy army soon enough to re-route a Legion to go defend a key city i raise a new Legion and pump it full of as amny mercenaries as i can afford and are available, those mercenaries almost always tend to be Hoplites...


want an example?

4 units of 160 Mercenary Hoplites (640)
4 units of 80 citizen cavalry (320)
2 units of 120 leves (240)
2 units of 120 plebs (240)
1 unit of 160 principes
1 unit of 160 triarii
1 unit of 160 rorarii
(1920 total)

fighting against

18 units of 160 Itallian Spearmen
1 unit of 80 Itallian Nobal Cavalry
(2960 total)

The principes triarii and rorarii didnt do anything but sit on the cap waiting for the Hoplites to either die or run which never happened.
The plebs and cavalry didnt do much more than keep several enemy units chacing them.

So this really was more of a 2960 vs 880


nearly all the enemy army was killed, few of my men were killed IIRC the most heavily damaged unit was one of the plebs when it got caught by a partial enemy unit and the runner up was one of the Hoplites loosing about a quarter of their numbers.


soo Hoplites are pretty damn good... at least when they work for Rome... every time i go against them they fall like wheat before a scyth...

[bbolto]

Ok I don't do much MP battles myself but I've watched a lot of them so I have some idea of the state of the game.

formations of 3 men deep - the infamous Rome 2 spaghetti lines. I think the idea is that 1) it's more efficient with the Rome 2 engine to have as many of your troops attacking as possible, and to wrap around the edges of the engagement to get even more swings in (so in MP people turn formation attack off – this works in SP too but you don't really need that edge); and 2) you can also cover more of the battlefield, and while a heavy cavalry unit can run through a spaghetti line of infantry, you have to micro to do it, so if their attention is elsewhere you can still catch your adversary's horses.

power factions - the most powerful units in Rome 2 MP are heavy sword infantry with precursor javelins, so any faction that can get those at reasonable cost has an advantage. So the power factions I know of are Rome, the Boii, and I think to a lesser extent Tylis, Arverni, and maybe a tier below that Galatia and the Nervii? Little rusty here. The weak factions are the basic Greek factions, Athens, Pergamon, Syracuse (but Syracuse has good mercs for MP I think), Colchis, etc., and also probably the factions that are just plain weak, like the Ardiaei and Getae.

strong cavalry - well, cavalry can be very helpful in Rome 2 as well and I don't recall people going all cav in Rome 1. Cavalry is certainly less fast than in Rome 1 which makes a big difference. As far as I know good Rome 2 players usually bring some cav along.

hoplites - they won't win vs. equivalent sword infantry unsupported, but they can hold out for a while. Most of them have a lot of armor. Counterintuitively (or just stupidly) the best way to use them is to charge into the enemy, and then activate the hoplite wall ability to grind out the fight.