Why admin rights?

[Uklosk]

Why does the demo need to run as admin on Windows? No game should ever require that, this is a security nightmare.

[gabriele83]

Origineel geplaatst door sashiro:

Origineel geplaatst door gabriele83:

All you bring is copy and paste yet not even understanding what you're copying and pasting.

You still failed to tell what was wrong, essentially escaping your claims, funny

Origineel geplaatst door gabriele83:

Administrator CAN act as TrustedInstaller or System [...] since Admin can do pretty much everything

It can not act like them and it cant do "everything", thats the sole purpose of Trusted Installer and System, otherwise you could easily modify and delete anything owned by either TI or Sys
Ever tried to delete something owned by Trusted Installer or System? Even granted admin rights? even used an elevated prombt? and windows still yells at you: you dont have permission to execute the task?
Guess why: Trusted Installer rejects it unless you change ownership

again the ultimate prove how dumb you are not knowing how windows works

btw its funny that you admitted how wrong you are, lets quickly look back:

Origineel geplaatst door gabriele83:

"Kernel level anti cheat DOES require admin rights, and there's no higher privilege than Admin. Anything requiring admin rights will trigger the UAC."

oh wait, now trusted installer and system exists, so there is something higher than admin? funny (and just a little hint, in case you were too stupid to understand it: admin is required only once during installation of EAC / any anti cheat and i mentioned it - learn to read dude, this should be self explanatory btw)

Origineel geplaatst door gabriele83:

You can easily check all the stuff that is running at the kernel level and you'll see it's mostly drivers, and that's the whole point, you don't want a game to be running in kernel space, nor with admin rights, there shouldn't be any need, thing is anti cheat software usually wants to have full control over the system.

And now? literally any modern anti cheat will run in kernel mode, what u wanna do about it? go cry? oh youre already doing it sorry, nevermind

as you like to claim i only do c&p, have a little read:

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/application-security/application-control/user-account-control
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/application-security/application-control/user-account-control/how-it-works
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/identity-protection/access-control/local-accounts
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/-access-denied-or-other-errors-when-you-access-or-work-with-files-and-folders-in-windows-219af563-1953-ab4a-f17e-b0182755214e
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/operating-system-security/
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/application-security/

now i wasted enough time getting the links to educate you on how windows works, however i doubt you will even open it you know-it-all, you arent smart enough to understand it anyways lmao
not gonna waste my time with a paranoid know-it-all

I already told you but apparently you can't interpret things:

Administrator
Mode: Primarily User Mode, can request elevated privileges (UAC) for kernel-level operations. (in short: it can request kernel level access from System)

Administrator CAN request kernel level access from System, essentially while Administrator can't directly do the stuff that System or TrustedInstaller do, it can request to act on their behalf, not to mention as Administrator you can change ownership of files overtaking the problem when and if it arises.
Give Admin access to a person and they will easily do whatever they want with your PC: disable antivirus, disable security protections in place, installing viruses and what not, so really becoming System or TrustedInstaller isn't really the issue here.

When you install a driver that's exactly what's happening: Administrator will request kernel level access from System.
Of course you need to give access to EAC only during installation, because doing so it will install the system wide kernel level driver, still you NEED to be Administrator to allow that to happen in the first place, but you falsely claimed it wasn't needed at all.

Once again you don't need necessarily to be TrustedInstaller to have pretty much full control over a system, Administrator is more than enough, you don't need direct access to every single file, especially considering you can already completely alter the OS behaviour (eg. editing registry keys) and as I said alredy there are ways to become or act as TrustedInstaller.
This is not the place to get into details, but you can look for "No more Access Denied - I am TrustedInstaller".

Last but not least I NEVER ever insulted you, even though you'd deserve it for the way you treat people, and you never said what you think is wrong with my PC, because there's nothing wrong with it, always worked flawlessly, never a crash and I run multiple OS's both as multi boot and in a virtualized environment.

I never installed any cheating software on my PC mainly for 2 reasons:
- I don't think there's any fun in cheating
- I trust even less the developers of cheating software

As a rule of thumb the people insulting the others is always the one in the wrong.

[gabriele83]

Origineel geplaatst door sashiro:

Origineel geplaatst door gabriele83:

I already told you but apparently you can't interpret things:

Administrator
Mode: Primarily User Mode, can request elevated privileges (UAC) for kernel-level operations. (in short: it can request kernel level access from System)

Administrator CAN request kernel level access from System, essentially while Administrator can't directly do the stuff that System or TrustedInstaller do, it can request to act on their behalf, not to mention as Administrator you can change ownership of files overtaking the problem when and if it arises.
Give Admin access to a person and they will easily do whatever they want with your PC: disable antivirus, disable security protections in place, installing viruses and what not, so really becoming System or TrustedInstaller isn't really the issue here.

you still didnt say what is wrong with this, no you are even confirming my statement, do you even understand yourself?

you even repeat what im saying:
- CAN request kernel level access from System (exactly what i am saying)
- it can request to act on their behalf (exactly what im saying while you first claimed it can act AS THEM meaning they have equal rights)
- you can change ownership of files (i just said this?)
- Administrator will request kernel level access from System (i said this multiple times?????)
- Of course you need to give access to EAC only during installation (but first saying i said you dont require uac for eac? funny)
-but you falsely claimed it wasn't needed at all (look at this comment, i even highlight it for you)

Origineel geplaatst door sashiro:

you really should look up what Kernel Level Access means and NO it doesnt require administrative rights nor will it ever ask you (unless it will install and run it without requiring a restart)

if you dont even understand that you literally agree with and repeat me, and this multiple times, something is wrong with you

for you system: no hardware specialist would brainlessly install 48gb of ram, are u using 16-16-8-8 configuration? or perhabs 32-16 ??? hopefully any of these 2 and nothing else... and ever heard of bottlenecking? whatever.

Origineel geplaatst door gabriele83:

I never installed any cheating software on my PC mainly for 2 reasons:
- I don't think there's any fun in cheating
- I trust even less the developers of cheating software

However i do agree to this, especially as most cheating software providers / creators have malicious intends and even purposely trigger a ban after a certain time

Act on their behalf in the practical way at the end of the day doesn't change much since you can do whatever you want once you have admin access, since you can easily escalate privileges further (if ever needed), so really I don't think it's of any use splitting hair because the final result will still be full control over your computer, so I really don't understand all the useless fuss. Moral of the story doesn't change: having Administrator access leads to full control over a PC, period.

Yes you stated you don't need Administrator access for EAC, or at best you expressed yourself not clearly at all when you wrote:

"keep an eye on "Easy Anti Cheat" which is the most commonly used and most games that use EAC do not require admin rights as EAC runs in Kernel Mode"

Yes the game itself won't need admin access, but you will still need admin access to install EAC along with the game.

The very simple reason why there are 48GB of RAM in my PC is the stupidiest any person with a brain could imagine: my computer started with 2 8GB RAM modules, then I upgraded it some years later adding other 2 perfectly identical modules (same make, same exact model) but 16GB each since I needed more RAM for my virtual machines, and since I had no interest in reaching 64GB nor wanting to throw away 2 perfectly functioning modules I kept them all and they run in dual channel 8 with 8 and 16 with 16.
The same way I switched my secondary 4TB HDD to a 8TB HDD since the 4TB wasn't clearly advertised as a SMR drive and started to fail just after 2 years (I think there's been also a class action against Seagate for that), I still have the 4TB one installed but I don't trust it with anything and took the chance to get a bigger storage for games and internal backup, and I have a BD writer to further external backup.
Mind you when I assembled my PC RAM prices were high and regarding GPUs it was during the cryptomining crisis, I actually had to constantly monitor prices to get my GPU at a not crazy high price...

You'd better relax instead of starting insulting people you don't even know and accusing without a clue, also writing useless walls of text that prove absolutely nothing since my initial clue stands valid: administrator access will give full access.

P.S. I have Japanese friends and even lived in Japan for a while, I can tell you're definitely not Japanese, so you'd better stop posing as one, that attitude is surely all the opposite a Japanese person would ever have or want.

[Gyson]

Maybe we should focus on the original question that was asked: Why did the demo (and likely the finished game) need to have administration rights every time it's run, when most games don't?

[gabriele83]

THIS IS THE POINT:

Origineel geplaatst door Gyson:

Maybe we should focus on the original question that was asked: Why did the demo (and likely the finished game) need to have administration rights every time it's run, when most games don't?

Too bad someone felt like this was the place to continuosly insult people to bring up useless stuff that didn't add anything to the conversation, because the one above is exactly the point.

I don't feel insulted because empty insults don't touch me, the fact that you kept insulting and attacking remains, and then when I simply said don't pose as a Japanese since you surely arent since you don't act at all like a honorable Japanese person you call me racist?
Simply for pointing out you're not what you pretend to be? I'm absolutely not racist, I don't know where you're from, all I know is that you're surely NOT Japanese.

Before going back to the original reason of this post I just feel compelled to show you how you behave and how you insult and attack people all the time, apparently without even realizing, or realizing and not caring and then denying:

Origineel geplaatst door sashiro:

Your comment proves how little you know about computers LMAO
<snip>
to educate you, read the following articles / look at the provided image
<snip>
Here is a list i specifically made for you as i doubt you will be smart enough to read and understand the articles ive sent ;)
<snip>
You clearly dont if u dont even know the control level of windows LMAO
<snip>
you claim being a "linux sys admin" yet complaining about windows security while literally not knowing anything about it
<snip>
your whole response proves how paranoid and uneducated you are over the things you talk about
<snip>
Its funny how you try to be smart while literally knowing nothing about windows administration and security and you wanna be a "sysadmin"? thats a joke right?
<snip>
and ps: you cant even build a proper system and you claim to be a sysadmin? smells like a wannabe
<snip>
again the ultimate prove how dumb you are not knowing how windows works
<snip>
go cry? oh youre already doing it sorry, nevermind
<snip>
now i wasted enough time getting the links to educate you on how windows works, however i doubt you will even open it you know-it-all, you arent smart enough to understand it anyways lmao
not gonna waste my time with a paranoid know-it-all
<snip>
do you even understand yourself?

I think it's time to block you so that this conversation can go along with better minded people that will focus on the actual point: what are admin rights for in this game?
What I've found out without investigating too much is that the game downloads stuff from who.nie.easebar.com when started, that's when it performs the downloaded file check, meaning it's downloading external components, not from Steam but from external servers.

[insanity83[NL]]

yet you cry about being insulted, especially as you think "to educate someone by providing professional documentation" is a insult

and if you really think
>> Your comment proves how little you know about computers LMAO
is a insult, sorry i cant help you, this is a fact you have proven multiple times that u literally know nothing about computers / windows
and the rest of the conversation, where are the insults or inproper behaviour? should i start snipping out your posts of how rude you are?
but i wont for a specific reason: i have no interest in offending nor attacking you like you do

i called you out for not being smart for a specific reason: you didnt even bother opening the links, secondly you claimed im wrong while clearly agreeing with me = youre a know-it-all - again where are the insults and improper behaviour?

so tell me, how is what i said wrong? except you trying to find reasons to go against me?

the one showing improper behaviour and rudeness of finest are you: doesnt even bother to open articles, you specifically attack and offend me, try to find reasons to go against me and complaining about what i write is not true, while clearly agreeing with me, just read your posts again, hopefully you find the flaws in your logic

and you claim not being racist? read your post and say it again

asking again as you didnt answer my question: what has my CoO to do with all of this?
you are purposely attacking and offending me because of my origin and ethnicity how is this not being racist? tell me

and just again: your latest post really shows how much you know about japan and the japanese culture: noting, work in japan, specifically in a burakku kigyou, then you know how tough it can be for a japanese worker.

your very last paragraph again shows how paranoid you are, literally every game will not only download content from steam cdn, they will download from other cdns as well and ofc from their own servers
little explanation of how SteamWorks work btw: Every game you want to release undergoes a deep check from SteamWorks before you can release it to ensure the game does not contain malicious code or has malicious intends, the files are only distrubuted to the steam network if SteamWorks have approved them, there are extremely rare cases of things slipping through (mostly only after the required review for releasing), and still, itll be taken down by steam / steamworks fast enough to be a serious thread for steam users

Not gonna continute arguring with you, you will anyways search for something to go against me anyways like the past 5 posts from you

----

many games require admin even those released on steam, Tower of Fantasy for example, its mainly for their anti cheat that is not run on boot like Vanguard and co

First of all, getting personal with people disqualifies you from any intellectual conversation.

Also, the statement that many games ask for admin privileges is incorrect. Most do not, except perhaps during the initial installation of the game. As has been stated before, granting admin privileges means the application itself can do a lot of unwanted things.

It is clear to most of us that you have a very limited understanding of how security actually works, especially when you try to undermine a sysadmin who does this for a living.

There is always a keyboard warrior who has some Google skills but no actual experience in the field...

[insanity83[NL]]

Origineel geplaatst door gabriele83:

I think it's time to block you so that this conversation can go along with better minded people that will focus on the actual point: what are admin rights for in this game?
What I've found out without investigating too much is that the game downloads stuff from who.nie.easebar.com when started, that's when it performs the downloaded file check, meaning it's downloading external components, not from Steam but from external servers.

Upon checking the domain I was able to find this on the who is:
https://who.is/whois/easebar.com

https://otx.alienvault.com/indicator/domain/easebar.com

Did find a reddit post about it though:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DiabloImmortal/comments/yf9qlt/comment/iu3dwct

Seems to be NetEase related.

[Uklosk]

Origineel geplaatst door sashiro:

Origineel geplaatst door Gyson:

Maybe we should focus on the original question that was asked: Why did the demo (and likely the finished game) need to have administration rights every time it's run, when most games don't?

many games require admin even those released on steam, Tower of Fantasy for example, its mainly for their anti cheat that is not run on boot like Vanguard and co

That is not an answer to my question.

No game should need Admin rights.

In an online game like this is even worse due to remote code execution risks.

If the devs have no answer to my question then they should fix their game or warn people they are installing a potential backdoor in their computers.

[gabriele83]

Origineel geplaatst door insanity83NL:

Origineel geplaatst door gabriele83:

I think it's time to block you so that this conversation can go along with better minded people that will focus on the actual point: what are admin rights for in this game?
What I've found out without investigating too much is that the game downloads stuff from who.nie.easebar.com when started, that's when it performs the downloaded file check, meaning it's downloading external components, not from Steam but from external servers.

Upon checking the domain I was able to find this on the who is:
https://who.is/whois/easebar.com

https://otx.alienvault.com/indicator/domain/easebar.com

Did find a reddit post about it though:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DiabloImmortal/comments/yf9qlt/comment/iu3dwct

Seems to be NetEase related.

Yes it's owned by NetEase, they host their own files, thing is granting admin privileges and then running unknown download files poses always some degree of risk.
What's downloaded through Steam is surely checked very, very well by Steam, I have no idea what happens when it's downloaded via external sources but I have my doubts that Steam can control that too.
I don't like giving admin rights to EAC and similar either but at least those work via trusted certificates and it's a trusted authority, which absolutely doesn't mean it's 100% safe, but still safer than giving rights to anything any developer decides you should run as admin.
I haven't done a thorough check on what else is done since I really don't have the time to do so, maybe someone else did, I'll be here listening for any possibile information.

[Gyson]

Origineel geplaatst door Uklosk:

Origineel geplaatst door sashiro:

many games require admin even those released on steam, Tower of Fantasy for example, its mainly for their anti cheat that is not run on boot like Vanguard and co

That is not an answer to my question.

No game should need Admin rights.

In an online game like this is even worse due to remote code execution risks.

If the devs have no answer to my question then they should fix their game or warn people they are installing a potential backdoor in their computers.

Yeah, I feel that if someone has to fall back on "well this Gacha game does the concerning thing too" as their argument then it's off to a bad start. I'm not really interested in Whataboutisms, especially when the examples being pointed to are just as questionable.

[baddoggs]

So, where exactly do you GET this demo?
I have seen it on u tube but it's not on the store page.

[Valykai Hyena]

Origineel geplaatst door baddoggs:

So, where exactly do you GET this demo?
I have seen it on u tube but it's not on the store page.

Demo was only available to be played during June 10-17. Have to wait for full release to play.

[=MS=Scout]

You do know that you can turn this off .......... Windows 11

Here following steps to remove run as administrator permission from an apps:

1-Right click on that program shortcut which in on desktop.
2- click on "Show more options".
3- Choose properties option and go to compatibility tab
4-Uncheck the box "Run this program as an administrator". If it's Checked ?
5-Click Apply and then OK
6- Same steps for other apps also.

[Interl@ce]

Origineel geplaatst door =MS=Scout:

You do know that you can turn this off .......... Windows 11

Here following steps to remove run as administrator permission from an apps:

1-Right click on that program shortcut which in on desktop.
2- click on "Show more options".
3- Choose properties option and go to compatibility tab
4-Uncheck the box "Run this program as an administrator". If it's Checked ?
5-Click Apply and then OK
6- Same steps for other apps also.

You do know applications & games can forcibly request admin elevation no matter how you change that setting, right? And that they can refuse to run if not elevated?

[gabriele83]

Origineel geplaatst door =MS=Scout:

You do know that you can turn this off .......... Windows 11

Here following steps to remove run as administrator permission from an apps:

1-Right click on that program shortcut which in on desktop.
2- click on "Show more options".
3- Choose properties option and go to compatibility tab
4-Uncheck the box "Run this program as an administrator". If it's Checked ?
5-Click Apply and then OK
6- Same steps for other apps also.

This is valid only for shortcuts set to run as admin, in this game the executable file itself requires admin access (and yes the checkmark isn't set in case you were asking).
This means it's set to run as Administrator either from some registry key or from some manifest.

[insanity83[NL]]

Origineel geplaatst door gabriele83:

Origineel geplaatst door insanity83NL:

Upon checking the domain I was able to find this on the who is:
https://who.is/whois/easebar.com

https://otx.alienvault.com/indicator/domain/easebar.com

Did find a reddit post about it though:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DiabloImmortal/comments/yf9qlt/comment/iu3dwct

Seems to be NetEase related.

Yes it's owned by NetEase, they host their own files, thing is granting admin privileges and then running unknown download files poses always some degree of risk.
What's downloaded through Steam is surely checked very, very well by Steam, I have no idea what happens when it's downloaded via external sources but I have my doubts that Steam can control that too.
I don't like giving admin rights to EAC and similar either but at least those work via trusted certificates and it's a trusted authority, which absolutely doesn't mean it's 100% safe, but still safer than giving rights to anything any developer decides you should run as admin.
I haven't done a thorough check on what else is done since I really don't have the time to do so, maybe someone else did, I'll be here listening for any possibile information.

I agree with you there.