Solo Luna DPS check : Isn't it just too absurd?

[Two_EG]

I feel like it requires you to have 280 > DPS just to barely pass their 'check', and it feels... really hard to obtain this level of DPS.

Just picking 2 damage items on 1st map is not enough, you need to pick 'best 2 damage item that matches your class' or maybe 'good 1 damage item + best dps skill upgrade on shop' to get this dps.

So the real problem is this : if picking damageless items will just make you lose the game, then what's the point of these items?

Well maybe I can pick them up after Scholar's Nest,(never done it :P) but before then, those damageless items are just total garbage for players.

EDIT: On second thought, there were already a ton of crappy items even in normal difficulty, so not a surprise to see most items become garbage in luna. Fair.

[SilentProtagonist]

Jamjars lähetti viestin:

"should have picked better items"
how. there is no way to influence what you get yet. it would be more reasonable if you could choose chests, reroll them, or there were artifacts or rerolls in the shop... but there aren't.

with itemization currently so terrible, the game SHOULD be balanced around rabbits baseline dps. But it isn't.

Yea, I'm not sure what you're doing, but if your DPS is so low then you need to pick more compatible skill modifiers and items (when able), plan your builds a bit better from the start of the run (ie. if you are looking for a specific secondary modifier, wait for it to show up), and perform your DPS skill rotation better. I haven't played a single class that didn't start at 170-200 DPS in the first stage or 2 and by the time I reach the first full area isn't up to 250+ DPS already.

[Garlyle Wilds]

Two_EG lähetti viestin:

Hmm maybe class matters. Which class do you use for solo luna run?

I've mostly been using Dancer for it. However, I also did Red Darkhouse on Bruiser, and I did Scholar's Nest on Druid (a class I frequently hear complaints about low damage on).

There are some places where certain classes definitely have a harder time - namely if their AoE capabilities are limited or their uptime would otherwise be a problem; I can't see Sniper having a good time starting at the Churchmouse Streets for instance. Matching a good starting zone to your choice of class matters a lot.

[Jamjars]

SilentProtagonist lähetti viestin:

Jamjars lähetti viestin:

"should have picked better items"
how. there is no way to influence what you get yet. it would be more reasonable if you could choose chests, reroll them, or there were artifacts or rerolls in the shop... but there aren't.

with itemization currently so terrible, the game SHOULD be balanced around rabbits baseline dps. But it isn't.

Yea, I'm not sure what you're doing, but if your DPS is so low then you need to pick more compatible skill modifiers and items (when able), plan your builds a bit better from the start of the run (ie. if you are looking for a specific secondary modifier, wait for it to show up), and perform your DPS skill rotation better. I haven't played a single class that didn't start at 170-200 DPS in the first stage or 2 and by the time I reach the first full area isn't up to 250+ DPS already.

Nah, too often the game gives you absolute trash and there is nothing you can do except restart or die. A lot of the items do nothing for your dps, even indirectly by letting you play more aggressively. A lot are actively harmful.

[Ridesdragons]

yea, I talked to my friend about this recently. the issue is the enrage mechanic. I get that it exists in FF14 and the game is sorta emulating FF14 raids, and I even get why it exists in FF14, but the difference is that in FF14, you go in with a plan, knowing who you're gonna fight, and with what. if you hit enrage in FF14, it is your fault. but enrage doesn't belong in roguelites. after the first area (and even the first area if you choose random for the bonus 10 gold), you don't know who you're going up against, and you don't know what items and upgrades you'll get, and RNGsus can be quite fickle. and on higher difficulties, many classes end up dealing less than optimal DPS purely because of boss mechanics - how's a bruiser supposed to deal damage when they're forced to the bottom of the screen in order to not eat dirt? enrage is just extremely unfun, as it makes an otherwise-skill-based-games wholly dependent on luck. highroll or reset.

I wouldn't mind playing hard or even lunar on a regular basis (and losing, because enrage isn't what makes hard hard, the mechanics are) if I could play those without enrage. as it is, I feel like normal is easy enough for me that I can usually coast through it every time, while hard is hard enough to give me a fun challenge, but over half the runs end to enrage because RNGsus gave me the middle finger. I don't even want to touch lunar at all.

I hope in the next major update, they add some way to play higher difficulties without enrage, because it really sucks the fun out of those difficulties.

rerolls or other ways to fix your build would go a long way to making the enrage mechanic less painful, of course, but I feel that's slapping a bandage on the issue rather than addressing the main problem (and you can still get luck screwed in games with many build-fixing options, though it's certainly rare)

[Jamjars]

Ridesdragons lähetti viestin:

rerolls or other ways to fix your build would go a long way to making the enrage mechanic less painful, of course, but I feel that's slapping a bandage on the issue rather than addressing the main problem (and you can still get luck screwed in games with many build-fixing options, though it's certainly rare)

OR they could properly balance their items, classes and dps expectations so any combination of items and classes and bosses can beat enrage if played well. Because it's certainly not that way now.

[Ridesdragons]

Jamjars lähetti viestin:

Ridesdragons lähetti viestin:

rerolls or other ways to fix your build would go a long way to making the enrage mechanic less painful, of course, but I feel that's slapping a bandage on the issue rather than addressing the main problem (and you can still get luck screwed in games with many build-fixing options, though it's certainly rare)

OR they could properly balance their items, classes and dps expectations so any combination of items and classes and bosses can beat enrage if played well. Because it's certainly not that way now.

hey, don't say it like balance is even remotely easy to pull off. most of the time balance isn't even desirable in a game (although many gamers certainly think it is). especially in the roguelite sphere. I don't think there's a single roguelite that pulls off balance like that - correction, I don't think there's a single successful roguelite that pulls off balance like that. the main draw of roguelites is how massively different one run will be from the next run. and sometimes that means there needs to be stinkers. if you make the game as you suggested, you either A. water down the gameplay to the point that every run is effectively the same, or B. make the game so easy that even going without chests or the shop will get you through the "DPS checks", making loot and shop upgrades meaningless. nobody wants that. making the stinkers less stinky might still be on the agenda (wizard is even confirmed to getting a rework), but it still doesn't fix the big issue.

the big issue is enrage. enrage mechanics are antithetical to the roguelite genre. and it makes sense why. enrage is about forcing players to group up and come up with a plan, and punishing players who don't put in the effort. but roguelites are random by design. players have to be able to roll 1s in the genre. just like how sometimes players will roll a 20. you can't balance a mechanic that is designed around heavy planning against literal dice rolls.

there's already a mechanic in the game that pushes players to maintain high DPS. how quickly you defeat bosses determines how much xp and cash you get from the fight. take too long, and you don't get anything at all. there's even a meta-unlock for having that happen. enrages just don't add anything but frustration. you went through the entire fight without getting hit? congrats, but all your loot and shop upgrades were trash, so now you have to restart. you don't even burn through half of the timer before enrage hits, either.

hence my suggestion to add a way for players to play the difficult game modes without enrage. those modes will still be just as difficult before. enrage didn't make them harder. but now players will be able to make up for bad luck with skillful play. though even if the dev doesn't add a way around enrage, once mod tools become available, you can bet enrage-less lunar will be one of the first mods out.

[Jamjars]

Ridesdragons lähetti viestin:

balance isn't even desirable in a game.

major bruh moment

also I ain't reading all that

balance is kind of neccesary for mmos

[Lapinoire]

Jamjars lähetti viestin:

major bruh moment

also I ain't reading all that

balance is kind of neccesary for mmos

Pretty disrespectful to not read a reasonable reply.

Balance is necessary for MMOs, yes, but Rabbit and Steel is not an MMO. What makes a roguelike/roguelite fun is the chance of getting a good run, or getting a run ruined by silly rolls.

[DDRMANIAC007]

Lapinoire lähetti viestin:

Jamjars lähetti viestin:

major bruh moment

also I ain't reading all that

balance is kind of neccesary for mmos

Pretty disrespectful to not read a reasonable reply.

Balance is necessary for MMOs, yes, but Rabbit and Steel is not an MMO. What makes a roguelike/roguelite fun is the chance of getting a good run, or getting a run ruined by silly rolls.

See the thing is this game specifically has MMO style raiding.

[Ridesdragons]

ℜ | DDRMANIAC007 lähetti viestin:

Lapinoire lähetti viestin:

Pretty disrespectful to not read a reasonable reply.

Balance is necessary for MMOs, yes, but Rabbit and Steel is not an MMO. What makes a roguelike/roguelite fun is the chance of getting a good run, or getting a run ruined by silly rolls.

See the thing is this game specifically has MMO style raiding.

having MMO style raiding and being an MMO are two different things, though. it's clear the game takes a lot of inspiration from FF14, yes, but not every mechanic from FF14 is gonna jive with the mechanics of the genre that the game is in. R&S is not an MMO, no matter how MMO-inspired it may be, it's a roguelite.

the subject of balance in gaming in general is a popular topic in game design. many players harp and cry about balance in games, but for people who study game design (and especially those who make games), they know that good balance is often not good gameplay. this does change when you're talking about competitive markets, but we're not playing an Esport here, we're playing funni bnuuy game. balance takes the back seat to fun. now, bad balance can sometimes be the cause of lack-of-fun (as in the case of wizard), but that doesn't necessarily mean the solution is good balance, merely different balance. if certain classes significantly struggle to play in harder difficulties, that's an issue, but making all classes equally viable is a good way to make all classes equally boring.

balance is a fun topic to study, and is unfortunately greatly misunderstood by the average player. it's also waaaaay more difficult to fiddle with than people give it credit for. I do not envy the coders who have to do balance passes on their games. buy em a drink some time.

[Lapinoire]

ℜ | DDRMANIAC007 lähetti viestin:

See the thing is this game specifically has MMO style raiding.

MMO Style=/=MMO

[PewPew]

Jamjars lähetti viestin:

Ridesdragons lähetti viestin:

rerolls or other ways to fix your build would go a long way to making the enrage mechanic less painful, of course, but I feel that's slapping a bandage on the issue rather than addressing the main problem (and you can still get luck screwed in games with many build-fixing options, though it's certainly rare)

OR they could properly balance their items, classes and dps expectations so any combination of items and classes and bosses can beat enrage if played well. Because it's certainly not that way now.

Dang are you asking the developer to actually play their games? That's a pretty tall order lol.

But seriously if the devs just play their own game, they would 100% understand how to "balance" stuff instead of just looking at numbers.

[Jamjars]

You can't have the RNG of the roguelike override the skill focus of the mmo raid styling. It kills the entire point of the game, or the raid approach in general. Any MMO that had raids with an explicit failure chance would be laughed out of the market for good reason. A percentage chance of a player messing up a mechanic is one thing, the boss rolling a d4 and wiping the raid on a 4 is unacceptable.

Skill has to be the deciding factor, not luck.

People want to play this game because getting good matters. Not to roll on a slot machine that hands out wins based on item rng. The items should be a BONUS. I should be able to win a run naked as a stunt if I want.

[Lapinoire]

Jamjars lähetti viestin:

You can't have the RNG of the roguelike override the skill focus of the mmo raid styling

Sure you can, just because one game does something one way, doesn't mean every game has to follow in its exact footsteps; lest there be no creative liberties.

Jamjars lähetti viestin:

Any MMO that had raids with an explicit failure chance would be laughed out of the market for good reason.

Well, good thing Rabbit and Steel isn't an MMO!

Jamjars lähetti viestin:

the boss rolling a d4 and wiping the raid on a 4 is unacceptable.

Welcome to roguelikes, where a single bad roll can and will result in failure, glad to see the genre is working as intended.

Jamjars lähetti viestin:

Skill has to be the deciding factor, not luck

Skill and understanding are definitely a part of roguelikes, but luck has equal part in it. It wouldn't be a roguelike if it didn't have rolls like this.

Jamjars lähetti viestin:

People want to play this game because getting good matters. Not to roll on a slot machine that hands out wins based on item rng. The items should be a BONUS. I should be able to win a run naked as a stunt if I want.

Very few, if any roguelike games can be completed through sheer willpower and skill. While I do agree that the first 2 or 3 chests you open on Lunar making or breaking a run sucks, I understand that this is how the game was designed-- as a roguelike. This is natural for all games in the genre, and if you haven't experienced this, you either are new to the genre, or have played rogueLITEs instead, where RNG has little to no influence on the actual outcome.

I've had many Lunar runs get cut short due to bad RNG, and I just sucked it up and moved onto the next run, get over it. You win some, you lose some.

[Ridesdragons]

Jamjars lähetti viestin:

Skill has to be the deciding factor, not luck.

I actually agree on wanting the game to be more skill-based - a big part of the reason I don't like deckbuilders is because they tend to be heavily leaning towards luck over actual skill. and there are quite a few roguelites that allow you to win without good RNG. the game will be significantly more difficult and fights will take longer, but you can win. but that's the thing - fights will take longer. enrage is a hard cap on time. you cannot have a hard cap like enrage and the ability to power through bad RNG with sheer skill at the same time. it's one or the other. either keep enrage as a mechanic and embrace the fact that runs will ultimately be decided based on what loot you got and not how good you are at keeping your face out of the dirt, or ditch enrage and allow highly skilled players to win with a bad hand. or you leave the genre entirely, which would require a complete and utter rewrite of the game. I sincerely hope you don't believe that to be a legitimate option.

Lapinoire lähetti viestin:

Very few, if any roguelike games can be completed through sheer willpower and skill. While I do agree that the first 2 or 3 chests you open on Lunar making or breaking a run sucks, I understand that this is how the game was designed-- as a roguelike. This is natural for all games in the genre, and if you haven't experienced this, you either are new to the genre, or have played rogueLITEs instead, where RNG has little to no influence on the actual outcome.

sorry, but that's not the definition between roguelike and roguelite. roguelikes are games that are like rogue - most games that are frequently called roguelikes nowadays are not actually roguelikes, because they aren't like rogue. this game included. there's no similarity between this game and rogue aside from the fact that RNG is a factor. roguelites are games that heavily utilize RNG like roguelikes, but aren't like rogue. hence lite. this game is a roguelite. the terms are often used interchangeably because no one can be bothered use the correct term. but how big of an impact RNG has on the game does not determine whether it's a roguelike or a roguelite. it's purely about how similar to rogue it is. most roguelites lean very heavily on RNG for success, though that's mostly due to the fact that most roguelites are also deckbuilders lol. but there are quite a few roguelites (and roguelikes) where you can win with sheer skill.