Are Orcs inherently evil?

[SON OF OL]

I recently discovered a you tuber called nerd of the rings and watched a video on the difference between orcs, goblins, uruk-hai, and half-goblins. In this video he brought up an interesting question. Are orcs an irredeemable race? I would be interested to hear y'alls opinion on the subject. Also, I may find or think of other topics for future discussions, so please let me know if you find this one interesting.

[SON OF OL]

I got the question from the nerd of the rings, but I don't know if the question is original to him. I like these discussions too, and your post gave me some food for thought. It made me think of another question. Things like a morgul blade and the ring of power can corrupt people, but to what extent is it the magic controlling them rather than the person himself being evil?

[Celebeth]

Considering the rings of power were a metaphore for how power corrupts humans, I would say the pursuit of those powers is what corrupts. The ring is neutral, although a very heavy burden, until Frodo decides to wield it, and then suddenly he attracts all kinds of evil.

Gollum too, was a normal hobbit, until he came in contact with the ring, and it changed him forever.

In the end Frodo was unable to let go of his power, and it took force to take it away.

[SON OF OL]

Except smeagol didn't even know what the ring was, yet he was driven to the point of murder trying to get it. Also if someone is pursuing power there is a pretty good chance they're already corrupt.

[Langkard]

Publicado originalmente por Talyc Verda:

I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about when you "Things like trolls were created by Morgoth." Everything I've ever seen says that the only one capable of giving life to anything was Eru Ilúvatar. (As you said earlier in your post.)

The thing about creation answered below. Free will is the key.

Publicado originalmente por Son of Ol:

The story of the creation of the dwarves indicates that any of the valar can create life, but Eru is the only one who can give free will. Any life form created without his consent is merely a puppet. Having said that, it is my understanding that trolls are corruptions of ents (like orcs are corruptions of elves and men) rather than original creations. If they were created by Morgoth, they would need to be guided by the will of the dark lord and there wouldn't be free agents like Tom, Bert, and Will.

I forgot about the 3 trolls in the Hobbit, but they might also be an outlier in the lore because the Hobbit was written before Tolkien was more settled in his concepts for LOTR. I think you're right. I thought I had read somewhere that Tolkien said trolls were mockery of ents, but corrupted ents is correct.

[SON OF OL]

Publicado originalmente por Langkard:

Publicado originalmente por Talyc Verda:

I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about when you "Things like trolls were created by Morgoth." Everything I've ever seen says that the only one capable of giving life to anything was Eru Ilúvatar. (As you said earlier in your post.)

The thing about creation answered below. Free will is the key.

Publicado originalmente por Son of Ol:

The story of the creation of the dwarves indicates that any of the valar can create life, but Eru is the only one who can give free will. Any life form created without his consent is merely a puppet. Having said that, it is my understanding that trolls are corruptions of ents (like orcs are corruptions of elves and men) rather than original creations. If they were created by Morgoth, they would need to be guided by the will of the dark lord and there wouldn't be free agents like Tom, Bert, and Will.

I forgot about the 3 trolls in the Hobbit, but they might also be an outlier in the lore because the Hobbit was written before Tolkien was more settled in his concepts for LOTR. I think you're right. I thought I had read somewhere that Tolkien said trolls were mockery of ents, but corrupted ents is correct.

I'm fairly certain Treebeard did describe trolls as a mockery of ents. So I think you remembered correctly, we just had different interpretations. Also, while the 3 trolls from the hobbit may have been outliers in Tolkien's legendarium, the same could be said of hobbits themselves. Anyway, I'm glad I could shed some light on the subject.

Talyc Verda had a good question.

Publicado originalmente por Talyc Verda:

Didn't actually consider the dwarves.

Though, if the story is true and trolls were corruptions of ents, why is it that they look like entirely different creatures? I mean, if we look at the orcs, while different, they still have features that resemble they origin as elves and men.

I imagine that if you stripped an ent of its bark and branches it would look a lot more troll like.

[Talyc Verda]

Publicado originalmente por Langkard:

I forgot about the 3 trolls in the Hobbit, but they might also be an outlier in the lore because the Hobbit was written before Tolkien was more settled in his concepts for LOTR.

You might be on to something there. I've always heard it said that The Hobbit was written as a more child friendly book.

I would agree that its also likely they were just outliers as a result of not having alot set in stone. I mean when it comes to Tolkien, it is easy to forget that alot of what we know does come from external sources and later revisions.

[Sarumoon]

Ya, the Orcs are a sentient race, and no one ever even tries to talk to them. It's not the Starfleet way, that's for sure...

Kirk would have found a way. Or at least Picard would have..

[Ardaxis]

Orcs are basically a symbol for what humans would be like with all the inventiveness and guile of man but none of the morality. Yeah they can create great weapons of war like mechanized catapults but they're just as much of a threat to each other as they are to humans (unless guided by a higher power like sauron). Also Tolkien makes no distinguishment between goblins and orcs, they're literally different words for the same race.

Orcs are completely evil, yeah, but to borrow a Heidegerrian term they don't have the Dasein to make anything more of themselves than what they already are which is why they're a perfect tool for beings like Sauron. Orcs literally have no concept of what good is or means, they literally don't have the ability to be good in any way. This is why elvish weapons and food hurt them. Sauron is a different matter as he does have Dasein, his existence is a consequence of his choices.

So I would say it's without question that the orcs are evil and completely irredeemable, but they're a sort of evil that's almost pitiful in its inability to be any other way and thats why creatures like Sauron are more of an existential threat because he has the Will to Power that orcs lack. Corruption is a driving force in Tolkien's work, and free will is what's key to understanding this. A corrupted being of free will is always going to be the greater evil than mere tools like orcs. The difference is corruption is reversible when met with a stronger will to power (such as when Gandalf healed Theoden). But on the other hand a will to power as strong as Gandalf's can result in another Sauron which is why he's so deathly afraid to be in possession of the Ring.

[SON OF OL]

Thanks for all these great answers! I'd say this discussion is going pretty well, is there any interest in discussing other lore related topics?