Fix the AI - it's literally cheating.

[Mehbah]

When they aren't bullying you into submission by focusing all weapon attacks at you, they're literally cheating with their speeds. I keep getting outrun by low-speed characters like AiAi and Meemee, on straightaways, WHILE THEY ALSO GET ATTACKED. They outrun me while they're being hit by attacks, without boosts. That's even though I'm using console mod Eggman, who has a speed stat of 5 and a boost stat of 4. Every single other opponent still manages to drive faster than me, even when I'm at top speed. Oh, and they all have pretty much instant acceleration.

They also magically know exactly where I'm driving even if they can't see me, because I keep getting hit by ice and missiles fired by AI opponents much further ahead of me as I come out of curves. They completely ignore the four other AI opponents that are close to them, or even ahead of them, to fire their weapons extreme distances backwards in order to hit me in situations where I have no way of seeing the attacks in time to avoid. They have a drone in second place as we're approaching the finish line? They would rather fire it back a long distance at me instead of at the AI in the lead, just to ensure other AIs can pass me.

I've already beaten the world tour events and the six first grand prixes on expert, but I'm seriously tired of trying to win the rogue cup in mirror mode against AIs that outspeed me, accelerate better than me, have perfect handling and that have perfect weapon aim (with which they focus all attacks on me even when it's tactically unsound).

[Meturoido]

Originally posted by Mehbah:

Originally posted by S0L:

1. They'd hit you perfectly with every shot. They know exactly when to fire to hit perfectly with every weapon.

They still have ridiculous accuracy. They manage to single the human player out from extreme distances even when they shouldn't even be able to see you.

3. They wouldn't be limited by each other actions. You know as a player how annoying it is to be hit multiple times in a row. We actually limit that, we could let them really go to town on you.

Then what kind of limits do you have in place? The AI absolutely loves you shower you in weapons over and over. And for that matter, you wouldn't need to limit it if you didn't make the AI attack the player with extreme prejudice. Sure, they occasionally attack each other, but if they are able to hit you instead of another player, you can damn well expect to be the targeted one. They will consistently ignore the racer in front of them in order to fire weapons backwards at you even when you're not a threat. They would rather get second place and ensure that you drop from third to sixth right before the finish line than shoot the AI ahead of them and get first place. It's ridiculous.

For a concrete example, I recently kept getting outsped by Knuckles and MeeMee or AiAi. I was using a console mod Eggman. With mods, the monkeys' speed stat doesn't go above 3 and Knuckles' doesn't go above 4. My speed stat was 5. Unless the game's listed stats are wrong, they were clearly cheating.

5. We could make it their sole purpose in life to take out the player and work together as a team, instead we tell them to randomly pick targets or play nice with each other in the purposes of making an interesting race.

They AREN'T a team. They SHOULDN'T be working together. That you don't make them gang up on the human isn't something I can see as a plus when they shouldn't be doing that anyway.

We actually don't really rubber band them. In some occasions we allow them to have increased engine power if they are trailing significantly, but they're not allowed to do it near to the player.

I simply have to call ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on this one. I consistently see AI racers accelerate at crazy speeds and maintain speeds far higher than mine. I often look backwards when I'm on a straightaway and even characters that are supposed to have lower top speeds than my character will catch up to me with ease. It's always the ones that have been selected as rivals for the GP as you talked about above, but they aren't just driving at their normal speeds; they're clearly going noticeably faster.

Of course I realize that you could make the AI both perfect and cheating, but that doesn't mean they don't cheat at all. And I consistently see characters that should have lower top speeds than me driving faster than me without outside help.

I'll add the required "I do like the game" disclaimer so I don't get further suffocated by masses of mindless morons, but that doesn't mean I have to ignore clear flaws. And when a character that starts in an early position drives almost flawlessly and never gets hit except perhaps by a lucky swarm, while you get hit by items that you can't avoid (unless you're going to tell me to never be behind or in front of another racer while still following good lines) so you simply don't have any chance at all of catching up, it is a flaw. Enjoy that single sentence.


To everyone who keeps saying "but it's supposed to be challenging": There is a very big difference between challenging and cheating. In a racing game, it's challenging if your opponents are good but have the same capabilities as you do. If they beat you because they simply have impossible stats and gang up on you, it's cheating. If I didn't want any kind of challenge I wouldn't be playing on expert in the first place.

Somebody didn't read the memo, now we want a Legendary mode.

[A Fat, Angry Serval]

Originally posted by S0L:

So an interesting discussion :)

Here is the one interesting fact about the AI... We have to dumb it down. We actually make it artificially stupid...

Why?

1. They'd hit you perfectly with every shot. They know exactly when to fire to hit perfectly with every weapon.

2. They can perfectly drift every corner (and chain drifts), stunt perfectly everywhere a stunt is possible, transform boost every gate where it's allowed and risk boost off every single risk boostable object in the game (they see the world as collision, not pretty graphics!)

3. They wouldn't be limited by each other actions. You know as a player how annoying it is to be hit multiple times in a row. We actually limit that, we could let them really go to town on you.

4. We could let them all run full speed. We do pick a few and let them be the front runners in a given race, the ones who nip at your heels all the way through a GP, the rest are slowed, we could let them all run full speed...

5. We could make it their sole purpose in life to take out the player and work together as a team, instead we tell them to randomly pick targets or play nice with each other in the purposes of making an interesting race.

We actually don't really rubber band them. In some occasions we allow them to have increased engine power if they are trailing significantly, but they're not allowed to do it near to the player.

When you get to Expert AI, we actually are letting the AI be themselves more, pray mere human mortals, we don't remove their 'Three law' Asimov limitations and let them loose on you for real :)

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S0L
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Dude... make an optional single-race-only mode with all limiters removed. I'd love to see what kinds of carnage the AI will cause.

Though I do have to mention something...

Originally posted by S0L:

In some occasions we allow them to have increased engine power if they are trailing significantly, but they're not allowed to do it near to the player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14

I mean, it's actually kinda obvious that the AI has increased engine power throughout the race if an AI Amigo (Usually speed 1 with standard) can outspeed Vyse or Sonic with speed (speed 6).

Also, within reason (such as not going beyond the player's speed limits) you should let the AI run at full throttle at the highest difficulty.

Originally posted by Chavo:

It's a matter of actually wanting to play a good challenging game, what's wrong with humans these days, we no longer want to outsmart a machine.

Well, I do, I'd just rather do it when both sides are playing by the same rules. This is why I don't play chess against the computer - a machine can calculate an entire game from the start, which is impossible for a human player.

[Mehbah]

I just got overtaken by Team Fortress twice in a row on the finish line. Both of the times they gained absolutely absurd speed for absolutely no reason. Explain to me how the hell they can go from crashing into the wall at the end of Chilly Castle to overtaking me on the final stretch even though they weren't using boosts. Or how about the second? They get all star right as we're halfway through the final lap of Graffiti City, meaning it would be literally impossible for me to get in first since they I wouldn't be able to hurt them or keep up with them. Lucky for me then, that they run into a steamroller. I pass them and regain the first spot by a decent distance. And yet somehow they have insane acceleration and top speed and pass me meters before the finish line. How the hell is this not cheating?

Are you just going to tell me that they have a mod that gives them perfect acceleration, top speed and boost? That they accelerate enough to go from crashing into a wall (and keep in mind they already were behind me when they did) to overtaking me as we're both going in a straight line.

I'm utterly disgusted by all these people attacking me personally because I had the audacity to point out how much the AI in their precious game cheats.

[S0L]

Maybe they aren't so keen on your hyperbole?

Seriously, we actually cheat the the AI out of being able to win most of the time. Expert is called Expert for a reason. Gloves are well and truly off. We have considered letting them run free, but you think Expert is tough...

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S0L
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[Meturoido]

Originally posted by Mehbah:

I'm utterly disgusted by all these people attacking me personally because I had the audacity to point out how much the AI in their precious game cheats.

If you weren't so blinded by rage you wouldn't noticed I said that each and every game of this kind has done the same, back to the grandad of them all. Go play MK on the SNES in 150cc and see if you can beat it, why do you think these guys are going to patch a perfectly working scheme??

Why don't you just give it a rest? If you are so enraged with the game maybe it's time to either change game or go outside and take a breather, or both.

[Mehbah]

Originally posted by S0L:

Maybe they aren't so keen on your hyperbole?

Seriously, we actually cheat the the AI out of being able to win most of the time. Expert is called Expert for a reason. Gloves are well and truly off. We have considered letting them run free, but you think Expert is tough...

It isn't hyperbole. I just gave you accurate depictions of what happened. The AI outright cheats with its acceleration and top speed. Or are you going to explain just how Team Fortress can have both instant acceleration and significantly higher top speed than me? I'm sure you'll continue to keep talking down to me, but no matter what you claim the AI in your game cheats. I have given you a number of specific examples.

By the way, I can give you another very specific example that happened minutes ago. Tails was barely ahead of me on Roulette Road. I hit him with a missile. He had no items. He slowed down briefly while spinning, and right as he stopped spinning he started to accelerate. In fact, he accelerated so fast that he actually started gaining distance from me. Again, we were both going in a straight line and I was using console mod Eggman. Not surprisingly, he was one of the rivals for all the races in that GP.

Originally posted by PrimeSonic:

Originally posted by Mehbah:

I'm utterly disgusted by all these people attacking me personally because I had the audacity to point out how much the AI in their precious game cheats.

Dude. Do you think we don't know?
We know. We really know. We know very well that Expert mode pushes you against a very unfair advantage. And you know what? We can beat it. So can you.

Then why the hell are there are bunch of provably stupid people in this thread calling me a liar? Admitting something and saying it's not a huge deal is a very different thing than denying it and insulting the one saying it.

Originally posted by Chavo:

Originally posted by Mehbah:

I'm utterly disgusted by all these people attacking me personally because I had the audacity to point out how much the AI in their precious game cheats.

If you weren't so blinded by rage you wouldn't noticed I said that each and every game of this kind has done the same, back to the grandad of them all. Go play MK on the SNES in 150cc and see if you can beat it, why do you think these guys are going to patch a perfectly working scheme??

Why don't you just give it a rest? If you are so enraged with the game maybe it's time to either change game or go outside and take a breather, or both.

Of course I know that the AI in other kart racers cheat. Mario Kart is notorious for it. If you're playing on 150cc and are in the first place, the chance that you won't get hit by a blue shell right before the finish line is laughably slim. However, that's not an excuse for the AI in this game to do the same. Flaws present in other games do not justify flaws in this game.

Also, you know what's significantly more annoying than having the game clearly cheat? Having the developer lying in my face and a bunch of fanboys attacking me personally for pointing out flaws.

[Zork Nemesis]

I used to think the AI was difficult. At one point I was joining the various people who were crying that S-Class AI was cheating and difficult. They really are cheating a bit and there's no disputing that, but they're not impossible. The AI isn't perfect, and while it can seem unfair, they can be overcome with enough practice.

I say this after tackling S-Class GP for two straight weeks with every single racer in an effort to unlock all the vehicle mods. I managed to win the cup in all but two full runs, and it generally equated to a single cup per mod. Minus the few characters I maxxed in World Tour, I had to have played Expert GP cups well over 100 times, and I only lost twice. If you want, I took a video of myself playing the entire Arcade Cup (home of some of the hardest tracks in my opinion) on S-Class with Knuckles and his Speed mod (4/3/2/3 stat distribution) and winning every single race.

The AI still pisses me off, especially when they do stuff that's no help to them, such as dump swarms in your face when you're already in last place. But they are nowhere near impossible. Unlike other kart racers where getting any distance up front gets you caught in an armageddon's worth of unavoidable blue fireballs. And on that subject, I noticed that AI racers don't get nearly as many swarms in this game if you pull away; pull away in matchmaking and your whole final lap will pretty much be dodging bees.

[A Fat, Angry Serval]

Originally posted by Mehbah:

I just got overtaken by Team Fortress twice in a row on the finish line. Both of the times they gained absolutely absurd speed for absolutely no reason.

If the AI is doing that, get in their way and block. Make contact if you have to. Force them to rear-end you if nothing else works. Don't give them room to pass. It's like real racing (except for the whole contact thing).

Originally posted by <eVa>Zork Nemesis:

...pull away in matchmaking and your whole final lap will pretty much be dodging bees.

I knew my danmaku analogy had some truth to it!

[petran79]

I only have an issue with certain weapons. Eg in a Battle Race or Versus, even at easy mode, the weapon Twister is practically useless against the CPU. Even against high speed turns they immediately get back to normal, losing half a second at most (still better than nothing). While if they hit you with a Twister on a turn, you need godlike reactions to get back in track. so it has no other use other than to annoy you.

also that with the All Star turning is rarely a coincidence. If I am last, the player just after me always turn into All Star, to make matters worse for me.

another silly thing is that the same player instead of attacking the player in front so as to gain ground, attacks me instead who has the last spot. though this happens in any spot, whether he is second and I third etc, while the player in first spot is right before us!

still, I am not annoyed as much by the AI, as by constant collision glitches in certain points, especially if you go All Star. Eg in Adders Lair, you get All Star in a certain spot. If you activate it at that spot immediately, you'll dissapear off course and are reset back from the starting point.

In Skies of Arkadia stage, just before the finishing line on the third round, a certain invisible spot can stop your car and you are stuck there for 10 seconds at least. a lot of times I was first and finished 5th seconds before winning.

in some other stages, eg Billy Hatchet, when you enter the boat sequence you collide with rocks on top with some characters that have high speed and so you lose a lot of time

can live with it, but I can understand the online cheaters really. Due to spite from the CPU tactics, they let their vent on human oppenents

[Zork Nemesis]

Originally posted by petran79:

In Skies of Arkadia stage, just before the finishing line on the third round, a certain invisible spot can stop your car and you are stuck there for 10 seconds at least. a lot of times I was first and finished 5th seconds before winning.

Let me guess, over the lake? There's a spot where when you're further back, you'll see that one of the Valuan warships crashes into the lake and become an obstacle. Usually I get past it, but if you let the AI take a few victory laps, you'll notice it gets caught on one of it's engines. That's likely what you're running into; it probably exists before it actually crashes.

Originally posted by petran79:

in some other stages, eg Billy Hatchet, when you enter the boat sequence you collide with rocks on top with some characters that have high speed and so you lose a lot of time

Try and aim for the spot where it goes back in the tunnel the farthest. While yes, it's easy to catch that particular spot, I usually don't have any problem avoiding hitting that spot with any speed class, even performing rolls while I fall into the tunnel below. This one you just need to practice and figure out where to aim, and hope you don't get slammed aside by other racers when it comes time to make that drop.

[Mehbah]

Originally posted by PrimeSonic:

We've tried being reasonable, but there's no getting through to you. Please go away and take your rage with you. It is not needed here.

You have not been reasonable. Maybe you, singular, can say you have, but you, plural, sure as hell haven't. Take a look at the crap people have posted.

So here's the final argument.
Have you played the first game? The AI on "expert" there was so laughably easy that you could come in first every time by a wide margin. It got boring fast. After about 4 hours, the game had nothing more to offer you. This one actually has depth to it and can challenge the player for far longer. Even a real pro will have trouble sometimes and that's part of the excitement.

Did you know that it's possible to make challenging AI without resorting to letting them cheat?

Now one last time. Either adjust your piss poor attitude or go away. This is a happy place.

The idea that communities have to mindlessly smile and nod is a strong contender for the most offensively stupid and outright harmful idea I've heard of. Especially when people are so quick to turn around and bash anyone that dares to say something that isn't what they want to hear. You want piss poor attitude? Take a look at what certain morons have posted in this thread. Yet I don't see you giving them grief.

"This is a happy place! If you dare to criticize something we enjoy, you will be mercilessly verbally beaten to a pulp!"

No, seriously, I cannot even find the words to express how disgusting and anti-intellectual the idea that only happy and content voices should be allowed, is.

[GreenStache]

...dont mind me im just visiting.

[A Fat, Angry Serval]

Originally posted by PrimeSonic:

I dare you to name one example. Whatever you name, I can guarantee that it cheats too, just in ways you have yet to comprehend.

I can think of several.

Half Life 2 (put 5 combine up against 5 resistance in a realistic combat setting in GMOD and you'll see the real reason why these guys keep killing you)
Team Fortress 2 (well, unless you're playing Spy, but that's due to issues with enemy detection rather than an intentional thing)
Star Wars Episode 1 Racer
Metal Drift
Evochron Mercenary (and how exaclty can the computer cheat at a space-sim?)
Freespace 2 (see Evochron Mercenary)
Warhammer 40,000 Dawn of War 2 Retribution
Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition
Street Fighter x Tekken
Practically any computer chess game

And these are just ones I've played.

Of course, if you count the game's AI using advantages inherant to computers as cheating without any limits then yes, these games do cheat, but then you might as well say that a mechatronics engineering student with an already existing background in computer science and mechanical engineering is cheating at their exams, or that a tennis player with long arms and legs is cheating at, well, tennis.

This doesn't excuse Mehbah's additude, but I think it's important to state that it is in fact possible to make a game that doesn't have cheating AI, it just isn't the trend as realistic AI takes up more CPU resources which can arguably be allocated to the physics engine or just allowing the game to run on lower-end hardware.

[Village]

Originally posted by PrimeSonic:

You haven't said anything that hasn't been said several times over by now.

Yes, the AI racers follow different rules than players.
Yes, they work together to try to keep you from winning.
Yes, you are not on a level playing field with them.

But all this is to truly challenge and test the player. If you can beat the S-Class AI, you can stomp most other players. It will not be changed. You just need to learn how to beat them.

That's what Expert mode means. You will be tested for true mastery of the game and will be challenged with all odds stacked against you. If you can beat that (as many of us already have) then you can then call yourself Expert.

Until then, don't give up. Keep trying. Learn every last little thing to advance your position in the race. Use every tactic you can muster. And when you've honed your reflexes, your knowledge of the track, and your combat tactics and precision, then you will be a force to truly be reckoned with online.

If I may add something, i don't think that's good ai. There are ways to challenge the player, and make them want to keep going. And this isn't one, this seems to be a racing game issue though,. I LOVE racing games, I am not going to pretend like they are perfect, the AI a lot of the time, is done, badly.

Especially when slower vehicles can just out run you, this is a thing that happens in a lot of racing games that needs to stop. You can be challenging AND fair.

[Meturoido]

Originally posted by tmlfv:

Especially when slower vehicles can just out run you, this is a thing that happens in a lot of racing games that needs to stop. You can be challenging AND fair.

With all due respect, based on engine performance only, always the same cars ahead and behind, in all games?? Man, *that* would be boring to death!!!

Just for the record, when you say "And this isn't one", it isn't one for you, for many others, who play videogames just for fun, without bothering in the techincal aspects of them, it's more than ok.