[Spoilers] Question about Gray, and the ending.

[MuffinBorn]

I have finished the whole game, and there's one thing still bothering me.

Does the game at any point explicitly show/tell what happened to Gray?

In Lillie's ending, we see Lillie momentarily talk to Gray, before Gray fades away. I think it is implied that what Lillie is experiencing is just a vision of sorts? A way to get closure for herself? But what actually happened to Gray? Did she pass away from old age?

The imagery in the intro honestly really haunts me, especially the drugs strewn about the floor, and the toilet. From what I understand, the implication is that when Gray slipped up, and said "You are just like your mother", their relationship quickly deteriorated, and Lillie moved out. Her visit in the intro seems to be the first time she has returned home since then, and she only did it for her birth certificate. So it seems Gray's mental health plummeted, and she was prescribed drugs which she could not stand, meaning her years afterwards were lonely, miserable, and filled with guilt.

This already feels really depressing, but I wanna know whether the game ever explains why Gray is not present for Lillie's story at all. Or is it completely up to interpretation? After playing this game all the way through, I just can't believe that Gray would fade away like that. Especially in such miserable circumstances, with no family by her side.

[Blind]

That's why Lillie's wish is for mom to know peace, solving both problems... or at least that would be my best guess cuz IDK THIS PLOT IS THE PLOTTIEST!

[Lyo]

Obviously full spoilers. Confirm how far you are first with the checklist.
Spoiler checklist:
finishedhardmode/Lillith
finishedFinal route/true ending/DIS route
less important: finishedSpecial cutscenes at end of DIS and EX Mode
If you don't know what one of those things were stop reading.

Credits for a number sentences and paraphrasing go to the Void Stranger wiki:
Lilith route [voidstranger.miraheze.org]

So for the Lillith route(end of hardmode/playing as Lillie):

Originally posted by MuffinBorn:

"From what I understand, the implication is that when Gray slipped up, and said "You are just like your mother", their relationship quickly deteriorated, and Lillie moved out. Her visit in the intro seems to be the first time she has returned home since then, and she only did it for her birth certificate. "


"So it seems Gray's mental health plummeted, and she was prescribed drugs which she could not stand, meaning her years afterwards were lonely, miserable, and filled with guilt. "

Fortunately it isn't quite that dark.

The first part is right, though it seems to only be a short while after Gray's disappearance. (and almost certainly death)

We can't say for certain she didn't have mental health problems but we can confirm she absolutely never gave up.
The main pieces of information very easily missed are:
1. In the 9th Lillie memory, before the picture puzzles, current(?) Lillie gets a phone call from Freya that makes her go quiet and ask if she can call back later. Most interpret this as receiving news of Gray's death before Lillie went home.
2. In the first Cif cutscene we see the final image of Lillie alongside Lily after returning home, Lillie is wearing what is almost certainly a breast cancer pin.
Fans generally believe this means Gray died of breast cancer, giving new context to the medication and timing of her death. The final information of the content of Gray's letter to her daughters is not shared with the player.
The only version of version of Gray that gives up is the one that eats the fruit and reaches the voided ending, losing their sanity.
Now, on to the less confirmed.

Interesting fan theory:

Something else in the opening of Lillie route is an opened book on the ground floor the game notes to be the Dictionnaire Infernal, with a passage about Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies, highlighted. (Lord Bee) In a later memory we see Gray reading bedtime stories to Lillie about the "true" legend or history of the Void, later another memory mentions her teaching Lillie to fight. There is a reasonable fan theory that Gray began or attempted to teach Lillie everything she would need to enter the Void in her stead and save Lily.

From here on things get weird and less canon, feel free to stop reading.
TL;DR In universe time travel was the secret to curing cancer all along.

Less likely alternative of that fan theory AKA letting my brainrot ramble incoherently:

In the Gray's date memory(Lillie route) talking with Dan:
"Gray shares that she sometimes has thoughts of leaving everything behind and going far away.
She reflects on her experiences reading those texts in the modern day and muses on the amount of history that the world has forgotten, wishing that she can understand it all so that the world might not repeat the same mistakes."

From the moment Gray arrived in modern times it seems she wished to find a way back to The Void and Lily. She was researching languages, demons, and history enough that it became her career. Possibly looking for the location of the void, a way out of her contract, or some combination of her knowledge as Add that would satisfy her goals.

It is seemingly not impossible that Grey disappeared instead of died, having found a solution to her set of problems that didn't require Lillie's assistance. "Somehow" ending back in The Void at the start of a Gray true ending/DIS run.

The main problems with this alternative interpretation:
Gray promised never to return to the void as part of her contract. (solution: Add had the strongest dominion over dis/void)
The breast cancer pin would be a very random addition. (solution: the cancer was real)
Actually saving Lily could be a paradox with the end of Lillie route, though the game itself supports a time loop or reincarnation cycle idea, making this less critical of a problem.(solution: Lillie is really slow at burdenless hard mode, see below)
There also is no indication of Lillie existing in the Gray final/DIS route. (solution: not much of anything is indicated in the final route)

My very minor problems with the usual interpretation:
Why would a void lord that lived for thousands of years die of cancer?
I think removing her burdens and becoming unvoided make her human enough.
So Gray should only die of cancer if she has no burdens right? Just pick up the burdens as Gray and play burdenless Lillie and Gray should be alive lore wise?
Unless she actually needs the final rod to become immortal again! But if you try to do that as Gray, Lev steals it and triggers DIS ending.

So it is truly impossible in the lore for Gray to survive cancer(if it requires final rod) AND end up in a world with both Lillie and Lily.
Unless.......

Definitely wrong crackpot theory time:

Seriously this isn't what happened.
So, remembering that items taken by Gray in her initial run cannot be found by Lillie in a continuous run except the rod:
The Gray DIS run gathers all of Adds fragments, fully restoring Adds memories to Gray/Add's body, saves Lily, Possibly fulfills DIS purpose? and maybe prevents the Lilith comet from landing and restarting starting the time/reincarnation loop.

The Lillie Dis run does mostly the same, but in Lillie's body with a different final ending image.

So here are our options for the main storyline:
If the timeline is short
Gray jumps into the void cutscene>directly to> Gray/DIS route. Then the cycle may be broken and Gray/Add soul goes with Lev's and Lillie is born to Lily on a new timeline.>>something something Zero Ranger game? (idk)

If the timeline is medium
Gray jumps into the void cutscene>finishes burdenless and leaves all the burdens to Lillie(intentional or not who knows)>Lillie>directly to> Lillie/Dis route >Lillie burdened with Adds memories and maybe breaks the cycle, Lillie is told by Lev: "Promise she'll return safely, okay?". Does Lev mean Lily? Presumably. But ends with the beach cutscene of Lily alone.

If the timeline is long
Gray >Lillie >Cif
Gray dies of cancer, Lillie and Lily are together safely. Lev hasn't located the burdens yet and Cif will probably have to fight Lev some day.

Those 3 timelines are pretty much canon possibilities.

But what if the timeline of events is insane:
Gray jumps into the void cutscene>maybe takes all the burdens but finishes normally>raises Lillie in modern world>Gray somehow goes to The Void again instead of dying>Gray/DIS route occurs NOW>Lily saved, Infinite dancing cutscene, but Gray doesn't die(the whole scene was in their souls anyway), they return to DIS but Lillie already entered the void>Lillie route burdenless> Lillie is saved by Gray/Add>talks with Gray/Add in cutscene> Void court scene happens, Zero judge laughs their ass off because Lily was already saved and Gray/Add already heard Lillie's message/request. Lillie leaves with Lily>In the Cif route start cutscene, Gray's letter reads: "Hey I am a void lord lol went back to save Lily and right some wrongs, be home soon because time has no meaning for me." >Cif route happens>Ex mode final cutscene is a real memory taken from Gray/Add as Cif and Add are working together on exploring what Add has learned about DIS and the manyusa.

This makes Add's appearance to be in Cif route make way more sense, but in addition to all the earlier problems, the final scene of DIS with Lily on a beach is hard to reconcile unless you really insist the void lords are there to collect her.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[Vitamin defincensy]

trying to understand this game feels like it requires me to take a college course specifically about it

[Blind]

Originally posted by Killing people with hatchets:

trying to understand this game feels like it requires me to take a college course specifically about it

fun fact; the historical character of Abaddon's epithet is "The Destroyer"

[Brocknoth]

I know that this topic already has a spoiler tag but eh I'll spoiler my own text just in case for the question I'm about to ask.

So is Gray not her own person? Has she always been a part of Add or did Add just borrow her body in the DIS route? That ending raised more questions than it should of I feel but that's half the fun. Also did she die after the final battle? Is that the implication of showing her standing with the Queen as Lily returns to Earth?

[Lyo]

As usual, thanks to the void stranger transcript doc [docs.google.com] for quotes.

Obviously spoilers below.

Honestly still not 100% sure either way, but we have many hints here and there, I am sure I missed some important ones. Might help you to ask further questions in the discord(second post on the general discussion board) where the people with advanced brain rot hangout.

Originally posted by Brocknoth:

So is Gray not her own person? Has she always been a part of Add or did Add just borrow her body in the DIS route? That ending raised more questions than it should of I feel but that's half the fun. Also did she die after the final battle? Is that the implication of showing her standing with the Queen as Lily returns to Earth?

I think Gray is her own person, but it is not really clear to what extent.
At a minimum it is in the sense of losing all previous memories and being in the human world with a non voided body.
There is zero indication she has Add's memories in Gray birch tree cut-scenes, so not mentally Add.
'Almost' no void lord recognizes Gray as Add, so not Add in exact appearance?
The 'Almost' is an important note about encounters in DIS you can read at the bottom.

"Has she always been a part of Add or did Add just borrow her body in the DIS route?"
It seems that physically speaking, Gray is new? Doesn't have horns, body differences are otherwise minimal in the very little art we have beyond hair. The Dis scientist in the center of the final memory image, who became Add it seems?, greatly resembles Gray.
That said, the Lords were created from "Add's own undying flesh" as well.

It seems fair to say Add borrowed their body, even if it was possibly once Add's. It certainly doesn't look like Gray suddenly became identical to old Add like two halves reunited. But mentally Add did show willingness to sacrifice for Lily's safety while having no knowledge of her usefulness against DIS or connection to erasure. This is the same Add that experimented on mortals with DIS for millennia.

"did she die after the final battle? Is that the implication of showing her standing with the Queen as Lily returns to Earth?"
I believe? Gray only stands next to the queen if you are playing Lillie DIS ending, where she has died before Lillie route starts. Not during Gray DIS ending.
No amazing answers for this that don't require from 1 to 8 layers of speculation. I covered most of it in my earlier post though. Probably cancer in Lillie DIS ending, In Gray DIS probably Add/Gray saved Lily as the cut-scenes indicate.

List of some hints in Gray's backstory

Chronologically, we know Add was obsessed with manyusa/humans and creating an artificial one, and disappeared after making her closest creation yet, Cif.
The time period between Add leaving and Gray's story starting is possibly the time we know the least about? at least of the events mentioned in game.

Probably the most important hint is simply

Gray and Add appear to wear the same pendant(seen on the B002 Effigy)

Things we are told about Gray's history:
Called The Destroyer (Abaddon)
Seemingly? inhuman degree of power.
Likely enjoys fighting.
Ran around creating her infamy,
Eventually the queen stole her heart(Eus/Tail's appearance)
Conveniently bad at crossing small distances quickly.
Survived Void Lord lighting at the grave (on loan to Johann).
(if you fight well)The first mortal to ever land a hit on Bee.

(Dancing Birch tree dream)
"Lily: It's almost strange, to see you dancing.

Gray: How so?

Lily: I'm more used to seeing you kick and punch stuff.
Where did you learn to dance like that?
Or can't you remember that either?"

Either Gray says she can't remember her past to avoid telling Lily about violent things, or Gray has amnesia.
The next lines explain Gray learned dancing from the Queen around Lily's age?
This implies she met the queen in her teens at the latest, and likely it implies Gray
ages.

(Wedding dress scene)
Gray gives Lily The Pendant.
"Lily: I have never seen you without this.
Is it really okay for me to use it?
Gray: I've been carrying it around for as long as I can remember..."

(Gray date with Dan)
"Dan: Have you traveled by any chance?
Gray: Not that I remember..."

She really seems to have no memory beyond a certain point. Either from memory erasure or when she was created.

A lot can be gleaned from the DIS ending, Might be easiest to read the script link above(section: "Lev's Route") or watch the DIS cutscenes.

Now finally the important note from earlier:
Void Lords don't recognize Gray in general.
Bee fails to recognize Gray as Add, says farewell feeble mortal.
Lev only recognizes after not dying to void lightning.

But Cif was the only one to directly recognize Gray as Add
----------
Walking into Cif boss room, Chronologically it is the first time the Player speaks with Cif within the Void
{Gray exclusive dialogue}
Cif:
This is the way you want to end it all?
...
I can't remember the last time DIS called us this deep.
Brings you back...
But don't think I'm going to go easy on you out of sentimentality.

{Lillie exclusive dialogue}
Cif:
This child...
To think you'd turn them into your pawn as well.
You must be desperate.
I will not allow it.
If you were to let that child perish with you...
All your sacrifices would've been for nothing.
-----------
This is immediately followed by the Cif fight and Cif monologue directed at Add specifically.

Even if Cif is only speaking to Add's spirit or memories which inhabit the Burdens, the phrasing is so strangely one sided for Gray's version.

[Brocknoth]

I see. Thanks Lyo I guess I'm gonna have to do my own research, maybe poke around the discord a bit.

[brickey.8]

I think the mere fact that you can do the Dis ending as Lillie is pretty strong evidence that Add is just borrowing/sharing Gray/Lillie's body rather than her and Gray being the same person.

[Moonie]

Originally posted by brickey.8:

I think the mere fact that you can do the Dis ending as Lillie is pretty strong evidence that Add is just borrowing/sharing Gray/Lillie's body rather than her and Gray being the same person.

Both can be true and the game supports both being true much more than just one of the options, Lillie's DIS ending actually being a gesture towards this due to how differently the characters react to Add "throwing away what they worked for"/"fusing with a mortal" compared to Gray's where they don't acknowledge Gray as an individual.