Game needs some change for higher long time motivation.

[Magus Coldfire]

Hello everyone,

Let me first tell you, that this is going to be a TL;DR post and that I really love Starbound so far. That's why I'm putting alot of thoughts and effort into this post. I still hope you find it interesting enough to read it until the end and discuss what I have written here.

About me: I'm a huge sandbox fan, especially when it comes to 2D sandbox games. Obviously, my most played 2D sandbox game yet is Terraria (600h+). I also played Darkout, Edge of Space and Windforge a little bit, but they kinda felt incomplete compared to Terraria or Starbound, probably due them being early access.

But Terraria and Starbound are finished products and since both are 2D sandbox games, they can be compared to some deegree.

Let me start by telling you what I liked about Terraria and what it makes so special (at least for me):

Good things about Terraria!

Character Progression:

In Terraria, you start with literally nothing. You have some copper tools and you start to dig. Obviously, your main goal is to find better ores to get some decend equipment and better pickaxes. But what is really well done in Terraria is the fact, that when you search for ores, you start finding chests. Besides the regular loot like coins and potions you find some gear. But not the weapons are the most important things at the start: It is the accessories that provide you more mobility. Double Jump, Sprint, Higher Jump, No Falldamage, Gliding, Jet Pack, Wings. And the best thing is, that you need most of those abilities to seriously fight monsters (especially in expert mode). The game provides you with the option to combine certain accessories, so you can have multiple mobility upgrades for the price of just one accessory slot, giving you more options to build your own character with other accessories that provide you more damage or more utility (for example: doubled invulnerable time when hit).

Equipment:

Terraria has tons of it. And what's so special about this is, that it is not achieved by random numbers/abilities that get generically put together. Furthermore, every weapon kinda feels unique in it's own and the armors have different stats and provide different effects + set bonuses. This allows many different playstyles, for example:

• Melee: Later equipment for melee doesn't just provide more melee damage or increased melee attack speed, they also come with heavily increased defense to justify the risk in going close combat.
  
• Ranged: Sets for ranged classes provide mediocre defense and also increase you damage/fire rite and also give you a chance to not consume ammunition.
  
• Magic: Equipmentsets for spell-users provide you a better mana regeneration rate and obviously more damage, but since their high damage output, they have the lowest defense from all classes
  
• Summons: Summons were a new addition in one of the Terraria updates and since then they added alot of sets for summoners. They provide low defense (compareable to magic sets) and increase the number of minions and their damage.

As you can see, the equipment offers playstyles. But this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are also sets with unique features like going stealth when standing still and doing 50% more damage with the first attack made when doing it out of stealth.

PvE Content:

Terraria has a heavy PvE focus, probably the most out of all 2D sandbox games out there. But that's what makes Terraria so incredible good. When you start Terraria, you will rarely see one or two green slimes at once. They deal quite some damage to you right a the start, cause you have no defense and health regenration at all. Potions are rare and the only good way to recover is a fire camp. So the game kinda forces you to build a small hut in order to keep you safe from slimes. If you dont do so, night will turn in soon and you get surely killed by zombies at night. Speaking of zombies: The game changes constantly. If it is night, zombies and flying eyes come at you, if it is raining, angry clouds and flying fish chase you and ofc this also depends on the biome you are in. You are constantly challanged by the environment, especially once you reached hard-mode. You are never really safe and the developers did alot so that you never feel really safe. You think walls make you safe? Then worms and ghosts will come at you. Being fast is the best defense? There are enough enemies that are either faster then you, or have very accurate ranged attacks.

The point is: Terraria always gives you the feeling the world is kinda alive and everything you do is to cope with the threats of that world. For example, you're not just building a sweet home for you, you do so in order to protect yourself from most harm. And you really start thinking about how to make it more safe (like building traps for monsters at night). Building isn't just esthetic, it is part of the game, part of the progression and is really well integrated into the game.


What has this to do with Starbound?

That is a good question. Starbound isn't Terraria and by no means I'm trying to make Starbound into Terraria 2. But I'm telling you this so you understand what made me play Terraria 600 hours. I tell you, because this is a post about long time motivation. And Starbound has extremely much potential, even more then Terraria because of the planet system. It can integrate mechanics used by Terraria without abandoning the current gameplay style. Let me get to the above mentioned points what I like about Terraria, but now I also consider Starbound in comparison to that:

Character Progession:

In Starbound, you also start off with nothing and you have to find some things in order to get to the outpost. But once you have done so, you get your first mobility skills quite fast. Double Jump, Slide and Ball-transformation. Getting those early isn't bad, but I kinda was expecting that the tech-system is a little bit deeper. That it really provides me with real upgrades. That it "forces" me to get better materials or tech-modules to further improve(!) my mobility. But the thing is: You kinda get the "best" upgrades right from the start:

• Head Techs: You get the Ball Tech and that sufficient for most situations. The only real upgrade from that is the spike ball, because it really helps you. The others are only nice to have, but not worth the tech cards
  
• Body Techs: You get Dash, which is really good since it only has 0.8s cooldown. Air Dash is a real upgrade, since it offers the ground dash + air dash and blink can be useful in some situations, but dash is more practical. Sprint is nice for exploring, but otherwise not a real gamechanger
  
• Leg Techs: You get double jump, which makes exploring and fighting alot easier. And the other techs? Wall jump is inferior, rocket not really practical in most situations. Only Multi-juzmp is nice since it gives alot control. But all in all double jump is a really big game changer right from the start and there are no real upgrades to it.

You could easily play and finish the game without unlocking any of the sidegrades, since the starter techs are sufficient as they are. Not just sufficient, in some ways also more useful/practical. It's kinda disappointed when you realize, that you got the "Best" stuff right from the start. In camparisson to that, in Terraria you still get lots of better mobility upgrades even in late-game.

Equipment:

The next thing is the equipment. The problem with starbound is, you get tons of equipment through looting chests/boxes. It feels like every planet has it's own illegal weapon dealer who stores his stuff in deep holes. I thought "Ok, probably I'm just lucky or I can definitely forge much better items once I have an anvil etc.". But guess what? That's sadly not the case. All the craftable stuff is way inferior to the items I have found so far. You have the option to upgrade unique items, which probably ARE better, but to get them is quite hard, since you need the unique item and the blueprint for the upgrade. This is something Terraria did much better. Terraria offers you both ways: Some weapons can only be dropped by enemies and other weapons can be forged. The forged weapons are not inferior to the found ones, they are just different most of the time. Also you had the option to upgrade found or forged weapons to much stronger unique versions. For example: There is a poison stuff that is dropped by spiders, which can then be upgraded to a much stronger version if you have the items for that. Another example: You can craft a legendary sword if you have 4 different swords (3 can be crafted, 1 must be found). Crafting is a really big factor when you want to have some good equipment for your character. In Starbound, crafting can be pretty much ignored in terms of equipment. You find some really good stuff by just buying a good armor from random vendors (they most often sell you stuff that is above the tier you can craft) and weapons, like I have said, can be found. So why bothering getting the replicator and it's upgrade modules? Another thing is, the weapons feel to generic. Besides the uniques (which are often not as strong as regular weapons) the weapons often feels quite the same and their skills are more or less randomized.

And then there's the balancing. In Terraria, like mentioned, melee fighters have superior damage and defense, but they will take more damage since they need to go in. In Starbound however, ranged attacks are everything. I currently use a rocket launcher with homing missiles, which lets me kill enemies from a safe distance easily and still do more damage then every two hander ever would (+ status effects). Another weapon I use is the ice staff that lets me control an ice bolt. That thing deals extremely much damage and slows enemies and most of the enemies dont even see me when they die. On the other side we have melee weapons, which deal like 5 damage per hit with a firerate of 3-4, while my rocket launcher deals 50 damage with a fire rate of 0.8, ranged attack and homing. And since there aren't any other benefits for melee fighters like more defense or so, why should I go melee? You could argue because it's fun, but sadly there are enemies with rocket launchers that can one-shot you (was part of a quest). Since then I just use ranged attacks and I'm literally invulnerable.

PvE Content:

This is the biggest "problem" I have with Starbound. It's not at all challanging when it comes to PvE. You go to a planet and you have your standard enemies who all show the same behavior. Since the weapons are unbalanced and ranged is op, there is no challange. Like I have said, Terraria throws many threats at you, depending on the day time, weather and biome you're in. You should have a decend building and multiple types of weapons to deal with most situations. Close combat is really useful in Terraria and ranged is safe, but many times not so useful when you're underground in close rooms.

Continue at next post...

[Magus Coldfire]

Those are the things I suggest and would like to see ingame one day!

Don't get me wrong. I'm having alot of fun with Starbound. And I'm not really complaing here, because the game is great, especially if you dont compare it with Terraria, which is longer in development and received alot more updates since release obviously. I'm just pointing some issues (at least for me they are issues) that should or at least could be taken care of in future updates. I suggest the following things, becaue Starbound has extremely much potential! Here I go:

• Better progression: I'm ok with giving players double jump/dash/ball right from the start, but you should give the tech system more depth. Instead of sidegrades, give the player the option to really upgrade the mobility. This still can come with choices. Let me give you and example: You have the dash with 0.8 cooldown. You can now upgrade this to air-dash or blink-dash. The first one lets you dahs in air, the second one lets you blink (and no cooldown increasement). After that, you can upgrade again and choose between "cooldown reduced by 50%" or "dash range increased by 50%" and you can do that for both dashes. And instead of just using techs, also demand materials for the upgrades! Things like batteries, silicon board and stuff which must be found by killing enemies (the game can give you hints where to find these monsters). This way, the player must really search for ingredients instead of just tech cards, which lets you unlock certain things only in late-game
  
• Balance equipment: You should adapt the approach from Terraria when it comes to specialisation through equipment. A ranged/magic fighter should have disadvantages at close combat, while a melee should try to get close, otherwise he is ineffective. There should be different armor types that are designed for close, ranged and magic combat, each providing bonuses for the class, but lacking in certain other areas (melee = no range, ranged = less defense)
  
• More unique weapons: I dont have problems when you keep the generic weapons (it's realistic that they exist), but I would like to see many more unique weapons, where some can be dropped and others can be crafted. They have unique stats, unique abilities and unique appearance. It's always good to have equipment that doesn't feel to generic.
  
• Balance Skills: To be honest: Some skills are very useless, while others are completely broken. I'm not going into detail, but I think it should be clear that some skills need some rework, especially stat-wise.
  
• PvE Improvements: For me, this is the most important suggestion. Similiar to Terraria, I would love to see more changes on single planets. I want to be on a planet and it should feel alive, constantly changing. I do however understand, that some people may not like this. So my suggestion is, that you add a new type of planet into the game, that warns you in the description with a text like "Warning: My bioscans show that life on this planet constantly changes depending on environmental changes and that there may be very dangerous enemies deep underground". On those planets, different enemies come out at night or when the weather changes. Also, there are enemies at the bottom of a planet (close to the lava pool), similiar to the hell in Terraria. Right now, there are no enemies at all in the hell, which makes it to easy to farm rare ores there.
  
• PvE Improvements 2: Another suggestion that goes in line with pve improvements is, that enemies on planets can get stronger over time, increasing the risk level or that even planets themselves can change, which comes along with stronger enemies. This way, even the starter planet can get quite challanging or even change. Ofc this can be countered by some high tech devices. For example: If you build a "environmental stabilizer", it would prevent any changes of the planet or the strength of enemies. This is especially useful for players who wouldnt like such changes
  
• Refining Quests: I like the fact that this game offers quests. This is something that Terraria doesnt have and I hope that Terraria will have this any time (fishing quests are nice, but not everyone likes fishing). But I would like to see less quests in Starbound. Sometimes I get into a village and like 10 people offer me a quest. Since those quests are absolutely generic, they get boring really fast, especially if the guy in question wants you to travel half of the map on a big planet to rescue something and then lose the rescued person because she constantly walks into enemies. Also, the rewards are kinda useless. Why should I bother doing a quest that may take up to 10-15 minutes for just 50 pixels? I get more through selling farmed crops. And the mystery bag most often contains worse things then any crate you find on the way. So less quests, but more depth to them would greatly improve the gameplay experience.

That's all for now. If I have more suggestion, I add them here. Like I have said: This is not meant as negative critique. It's just good-meant feedback from a new player who wishes that the starbound team considers my thoughts in future updates, making the game better for everyone. :)


Greetings,

Teylor

[Ballsm]

its a $15 dollar game? nough said lol

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Balsm:

its a $15 dollar game? nough said lol

Want to know how much Terraris costs?

[Enderzilla747]

Run! Quickly! The angry Terraria/Starbound fans are coming!

[Pancake]

both terraria and starbound are boring if all you want to do is kill things. personally i like the balance (realism and fantasy) starbound does with it's physics and choice of equipment. you can't be a superhuman lightning fast moving killing machine in starbound like you can be in terraria.

both games are good yes like you said, but most of what i saw in your post is trying/wanting to make starbound into terraria.

Progression: progression in terraria is so fast that you can complete the whole game in less than a day or two if you knew what to do. in starbound you are gated by the boring main story quest and progression takes slightly longer than terraria because you have to fly around planets to get access to all the different materials for the different tiers

Equipment: both games have equipment sets for a ranged, melee, and caster build. terraria has a set for summoner (starbound's pet system still sucks atm). in starbound though (since this is equipment) you can play music instruments and jam with friends and throwing weapons are actually somewhat more useful compared to throwing weapons in terraria (who get phased out even before hard mode starts).

PVE: in terraria, you build an arena for each boss, you put pits and traps and chokepoints on your base, BAM everything is so easy - to the point that things become a joke, esp. when you're geared with the end tier stuff. in starbound while ranged is really good (which it should be, like who uses swords/hammers for actual combat nowadays irl?) melee isn't bad and usually hits for alot more if you have the right equipment set - but then again there's not much to fight. starbound needs giant (bigger than anything terraria and other games would give you) monsters that populate the depths of the oceans/magma/toxic planets and asteroids to satisfy the pve hungry audience and give a sort of thrill and sense of danger while exploring

PVP: terraria is all about who lags less and who gets the first hit (if you're all in the end game equipment). in starbound (if you're not using OP /spawnitem stuff) there's actually a chance you can win against your enemy with abit of skill as long as both of you are in the same tier level

TL:DR starbound is not terraria

[Spockus]

Water ball tech is also good, It can be used to bail if you are about to die in a frigid ocean planet. Saved my skin at least twice.

[PockyStyx]

Valid points, decent comparisons. Though a few thoughts stand out to me:

Terraria didn't get half of its current content until 1.1 and 1.2.
True, Starbound is now on 1.2, but I think these patches are more incremental, so we probably won't see huge additions until we're far enough along to see it all summed up.

Starbound's quest system, while very basic, was designed to cater to a certain playstyle. And that's actually one of the biggest differences between Starbound and Terraria.

Starbound is more friendly to casual playstyles because you don't have to do a ton of combat and mining to be satisfied with the game (though yes, admittedly, the majority of content is gated behind the first couple of bosses)

The quests in particular aren't designed as a money-making tool, or a high-risk-high-reward system. They're in place to let you gain favor with a settlement to recruit crewmembers for your ship. This is 1 of 3 ways to expand the size of your ship. The other 2 being penguins from diamond mining, or just straight up buying licenses for pixels.

You are right in that ranged combat > melee combat in most situations, but I feel like this is just a consequence of the genre. It's a primarily sci-fi based fantasy world. Why bring a sword to a laser gun fight?

I'm not sure how far you are into the game, but at the Aegisalt/Ferozium/Impervium tier, the different armors are designed to cater to certain combat types with different levels of Health, Energy, and Armor.

I do like some of your ideas, but a lot of these are already implemented with mods. Not saying Chucklefish can't do it themselves eventually, but in the meantime, mods are your best friend.

[Magus Coldfire]

Originally posted by Balsm:

its a $15 dollar game? nough said lol

Guess you didn't read the post. I never expected that the game has all this stuff already. I said the game has so much potential that I would like to point out some things that hopefully change in the future.

Originally posted by Enderzilla747:

Run! Quickly! The angry Terraria/Starbound fans are coming!

You also didn't read the post. I'm neither angry, nor did I expect that the game has as much content as Terraria does. In some areas Starbound is even way better (building and designing buildings for example). I'm just pointing out some things I would love to see a little bit altered in the future, so that this game will appeal to many more gamers, especially when it comes to long time motivation.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

both terraria and starbound are boring if all you want to do is kill things. personally i like the balance (realism and fantasy) starbound does with it's physics and choice of equipment. you can't be a superhuman lightning fast moving killing machine in starbound like you can be in terraria.

The question is: What is so bad about that? We are living in a science-fiction world and you are supposed to be the hero of the universe. I dont see any reason why you can't be even better then you are right from the start. I also dont talk about that you are a superhuman lightning fast moving killing machine, I just ask for more long-time motivating gameplay mechanics.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

both games are good yes like you said, but most of what i saw in your post is trying/wanting to make starbound into terraria.

I said they could adapt some things from Terraria, because that's what giving Terraria the long-time motivation.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

Progression: progression in terraria is so fast that you can complete the whole game in less than a day or two if you knew what to do. in starbound you are gated by the boring main story quest and progression takes slightly longer than terraria because you have to fly around planets to get access to all the different materials for the different tiers

I play the game since 2 days. At day one, I had to figure out some things (like in Terraria when you play it the first time). After I finally got the techs, everything became easy. So after you have enough copper/silver/gold and when you have build the needed crafting stations, you go to a planet with Tungsten ores, dig straight down, get some ores and go back to your base. Now you upgrade your EPP, go to a planet with Titanium and also dig down, get some ores and get back to your base. After that, you get durasteel and then you need Aegissalt, Ferozium, Violium (can all be found on the same planet) and then there's just solarium ore left. If you know what you're doing you can also easily get all this stuff within one day. The only thing that takes some time is the story itself, since you need to scan stuff. But that's not in line with your progression. You can have all the solarium stuff once your ship is repaired and then proceed with the story, but you will be totaly overpowered for most missions (you could call this being a superhuman lightning fast moving killing machine when doing those missions overgeared).

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

Equipment: both games have equipment sets for a ranged, melee, and caster build. terraria has a set for summoner (starbound's pet system still sucks atm). in starbound though (since this is equipment) you can play music instruments and jam with friends and throwing weapons are actually somewhat more useful compared to throwing weapons in terraria (who get phased out even before hard mode starts).

There are sets in both games, but they are not balanced in terms of the class they are supposed to be for. You can use all 3 sets in Starbound with all 3 weapon types (melee, ranged, magic), since they are not weapon specific. First of all, all 3 sets provide you the same defense stats. So melee fighters take as much damage as ranged fighters. Secondly, the only difference is that you have either more damage, more energy or more life. So when you are a melee fighter and choose life, the ranged fighters can go for the damage set, will easily outdamage the melee fighter and the melee fighter deals less damage, has the same defense and only a little bit more life. So as a melee I would still go for the 60% more damage instead of having only 60 more life (which is probably only 1 hit you can take more in late game).

The music instruments are nice, but have nothing to do with the equipment issue I have pointed out. And throwing weapons are not my main issue, but you are right that Terrarias throwing weapons could use some love too.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

PVE: in terraria, you build an arena for each boss, you put pits and traps and chokepoints on your base, BAM everything is so easy - to the point that things become a joke, esp. when you're geared with the end tier stuff. in starbound while ranged is really good (which it should be, like who uses swords/hammers for actual combat nowadays irl?) melee isn't bad and usually hits for alot more if you have the right equipment set - but then again there's not much to fight. starbound needs giant (bigger than anything terraria and other games would give you) monsters that populate the depths of the oceans/magma/toxic planets and asteroids to satisfy the pve hungry audience and give a sort of thrill and sense of danger while exploring

Have you ever played expert mode in Terraria? You will not win any of the boss fights without preparing for it and even if you prepare, they can get quite hard. First of all, all the bosses can go through walls. So you are forced to take them head on. Secondly, in expert mode, much more is coming at you, making it hard to dodge. You will not win the fights without using alchemy potions, since the attack patterns of bosses dramatically changes and they do 100% more damage and have like doubled health. And lets not forget potion sickness, that lets you only drink a potion every 60 seconds. So you can tell me all you want, but if you fight mechanical bosses for example with an adamantite armor set (best you can get up to that point) and a good weapon, you will still have problems with those bosses even when you have a perfect arena prepared. And lets not forget that Terraria has random boss encounters as well, for example the mechanical bosses can attack you out of nowhere once you start hardmode.

About traps/pits: Yes, that makes the night really easy, but like I(and you now) said: The game forces you to do these things in order to cope with the enemies that come at night. In Starbound, you dont need to build a house or any defenses at all, because nothing is coming at you, no matter how dangerous the planet is.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

PVP: terraria is all about who lags less and who gets the first hit (if you're all in the end game equipment). in starbound (if you're not using OP /spawnitem stuff) there's actually a chance you can win against your enemy with abit of skill as long as both of you are in the same tier level

That's a bad comparisson. Terraria offers many weapons and playstyles and alot of potions you can use. If you have a bad internet connection, you can go for summons, who dont depend on lag so much. And if all have a good internet connection, skill matters alot, since you need to know how to use your mobility and the weapon you use and even melee is useful in Terrarias PvP, since it deals way more damage and the armor sets come with much higher defense then ranged weapons/armor sets.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

TL:DR starbound is not terraria

I'm not saying that and I'm thankful it isn't. But that doesn't mean Starbound can get even better and with that also appeal to some of the Terraria fans.

Take my suggestion for a new planet type for example: I'm saying that there could be unstable planets that offer a much more lively environment, depending on daytime, weather and also biome (similiar to Terraria). This is for people who love to be in an ever changing environment that offers new dangers and challanges depending on what's going on on the planet. And since this is a planet type, players who dont like these things can totally ignore those planets and go for non-changing ones.

What I'm trying to accomplish here is to take the best things from Terraria and find a way to adapt them into Starbound, without breaking the current Starbound gameplay. I just want Starbound to fully utilize it's potential for getting the best 2d sandbox ever created, which an appeal to all 2d sandbox lovers. :)

[Magus Coldfire]

Originally posted by PockyStyx:

Valid points, decent comparisons. Though a few thoughts stand out to me:

Terraria didn't get half of its current content until 1.1 and 1.2.
True, Starbound is now on 1.2, but I think these patches are more incremental, so we probably won't see huge additions until we're far enough along to see it all summed up.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I only point things out Starbound is yet behind Terraria, without saying that Starbound is bad. I just hope that Starbound gets to the same level once they had as much time developing Starbound as the Terraria devs had.

Originally posted by PockyStyx:

Starbound's quest system, while very basic, was designed to cater to a certain playstyle. And that's actually one of the biggest differences between Starbound and Terraria.

The quests in particular aren't designed as a money-making tool, or a high-risk-high-reward system. They're in place to let you gain favor with a settlement to recruit crewmembers for your ship. This is 1 of 3 ways to expand the size of your ship. The other 2 being penguins from diamond mining, or just straight up buying licenses for pixels.

I think it would be better if some quests just give you more money or better (maybe unique) items, so that it's worth the effort. Crewmembers are nice, but not a must in this game so far.

Originally posted by PockyStyx:

Starbound is more friendly to casual playstyles because you don't have to do a ton of combat and mining to be satisfied with the game (though yes, admittedly, the majority of content is gated behind the first couple of bosses)

I'm not sure about this one. I had much more trouble with Starbound at the start, even with all the experience I have from Terraria. And that's because the controls are more not as respensive as they are in Terraria. If you jump, you can only slightly correct the jumping path and since the character is 4 tiles big, you often hit blocks when jumping. I also died quite alot because of falling damage. I and some friends have made a server. 2 (me and one guy) played Terraria before, 4 others never did so and all are saying the controls make it really hard to not die. Ofc this changes once they had the double jump tech etc. but I'm not sure if Starbound is really more casual friendy. I also find myself having to do alot more combat, since when you dig down, you are often forced to kill the enemies since they deal good damage, even if you have a good armor. In Terraria you can increase your health easily to 400 (from original 100) and if you play normal mode, a decent armor will make you nearly invulnarable, especially with 400 health. Also you get things like grappling hook etc. way sooner in Terraria, which makes exploring and mining a simple task, even for casuals.

Originally posted by PockyStyx:

You are right in that ranged combat > melee combat in most situations, but I feel like this is just a consequence of the genre. It's a primarily sci-fi based fantasy world. Why bring a sword to a laser gun fight?

Uh, dont you think that kinda wrong, knowing Star Wars as the most known/liked fantasy sci-fi? :o

In reallife, getting hit by a bullet has a higher probability to survive that compared to getting hit by a katana or knife. Ofc a headshot or a hit against the head would always result in death, but a bullet that hits your stomache is most often survived, while a katana or knife will cut you in half or let you bleed out quite fast. Close combat weapons therefore should deal more damage. And this is a sci-fi fantasy game. We dont need heavy realism. Let melee fighters (1h and 2h) have way more defense and damage, since they need to go in. OPtherwise, pixeling all those nice weapons and there skills would have been for naught. I think the devs want you to play with close combat weapons, otherwise they wouldnt drop so often, but for now, there's no use in doing so.

Originally posted by PockyStyx:

I'm not sure how far you are into the game, but at the Aegisalt/Ferozium/Impervium tier, the different armors are designed to cater to certain combat types with different levels of Health, Energy, and Armor.

They all have the same armor. They only differ in health, energy and damage. This is problematic though, since melee has to go for life (+60 life), while the ranged set provides you even more damage (+60%). So ranged attacks will even do more damage now then melee and to top that of, the melee fighter will probably survive only one hit more in endgame because of his +60 life.

Originally posted by PockyStyx:

I do like some of your ideas, but a lot of these are already implemented with mods. Not saying Chucklefish can't do it themselves eventually, but in the meantime, mods are your best friend.

Thanks for the advice, I may do that. I just hope CHucklefish takes my suggestions into consideration. By no means this was meant as a flame or negative feedback. It was a feedback from an experienced Terraria player who just started Starbound (playing it for 3 days and I'm already at the point of getting my solarium armor set). I think feedback is important, but sadly some people here think of it quite negative...

[Pancake]

Originally posted by Magus Coldfire:

The question is: What is so bad about that? We are living in a science-fiction world and you are supposed to be the hero of the universe. I dont see any reason why you can't be even better then you are right from the start. I also dont talk about that you are a superhuman lightning fast moving killing machine, I just ask for more long-time motivating gameplay mechanics.

nothing is bad about it. it's just that some people play the game differently. what's appealing to you may not be for others.

Originally posted by Magus Coldfire:

I said they could adapt some things from Terraria, because that's what giving Terraria the long-time motivation.

yup but i know you're just suggesting nothing bad with that but i did say "what i saw in your post".

Originally posted by Magus Coldfire:

I play the game since 2 days. At day one, I had to figure out some things (like in Terraria when you play it the first time). After I finally got the techs, everything became easy. So after you have enough copper/silver/gold and when you have build the needed crafting stations, you go to a planet with Tungsten ores, dig straight down, get some ores and go back to your base. Now you upgrade your EPP, go to a planet with Titanium and also dig down, get some ores and get back to your base. After that, you get durasteel and then you need Aegissalt, Ferozium, Violium (can all be found on the same planet) and then there's just solarium ore left. If you know what you're doing you can also easily get all this stuff within one day. The only thing that takes some time is the story itself, since you need to scan stuff. But that's not in line with your progression.

i didn't say starbound took long to progress i just said it took abit longer than terraria's if you knew what to do since you had to mine fuel and move into different planets, while in terraria everything is in the world you're in.

Originally posted by Magus Coldfire:

You can have all the solarium stuff once your ship is repaired and then proceed with the story, but you will be totaly overpowered for most missions (you could call this being a superhuman lightning fast moving killing machine when doing those missions overgeared).

but that's not how the game was intended to be played in terms of the main quest missions. it's the same as starting a new character in your terraria world in late game and picking up a nebula/solar/vortex set and chewing thru all the bosses with a phantasm/lastprism/terrarian/sdmg/lunarflare. and let's face it the techs in starbound cannot make you float, run or jump inhumanly fast, or use wings. they're more like bio augmentations which is still limited by the human physique (except the distortion sphere maybe)

Originally posted by Magus Coldfire:

There are sets in both games, but they are not balanced in terms of the class they are supposed to be for. You can use all 3 sets in Starbound with all 3 weapon types (melee, ranged, magic), since they are not weapon specific. First of all, all 3 sets provide you the same defense stats. So melee fighters take as much damage as ranged fighters. Secondly, the only difference is that you have either more damage, more energy or more life. So when you are a melee fighter and choose life, the ranged fighters can go for the damage set, will easily outdamage the melee fighter and the melee fighter deals less damage, has the same defense and only a little bit more life. So as a melee I would still go for the 60% more damage instead of having only 60 more life (which is probably only 1 hit you can take more in late game).

The music instruments are nice, but have nothing to do with the equipment issue I have pointed out. And throwing weapons are not my main issue, but you are right that Terrarias throwing weapons could use some love too.

it's also not stopping you from being a melee and using the damage-enhanced tier 6 set. unlike in terraria where if you equip the vortex armor, and use a melee weapon you're not exactly making use of the armor's bonuses since. you can argue that a melee would die faster due to being in close range, but that's what your co-op friends are there for i guess and let's face it, irl-present day, let's say in a warzone, you can kill someone faster with a knife stab to the back or slitting their necks compared to shooting them but you'd risk getting yourself shot

Originally posted by Magus Coldfire:

Have you ever played expert mode in Terraria? You will not win any of the boss fights without preparing for it and even if you prepare, they can get quite hard. First of all, all the bosses can go through walls. So you are forced to take them head on. Secondly, in expert mode, much more is coming at you, making it hard to dodge. You will not win the fights without using alchemy potions, since the attack patterns of bosses dramatically changes and they do 100% more damage and have like doubled health. And lets not forget potion sickness, that lets you only drink a potion every 60 seconds. So you can tell me all you want, but if you fight mechanical bosses for example with an adamantite armor set (best you can get up to that point) and a good weapon, you will still have problems with those bosses even when you have a perfect arena prepared. And lets not forget that Terraria has random boss encounters as well, for example the mechanical bosses can attack you out of nowhere once you start hardmode.

About traps/pits: Yes, that makes the night really easy, but like I(and you now) said: The game forces you to do these things in order to cope with the enemies that come at night. In Starbound, you dont need to build a house or any defenses at all, because nothing is coming at you, no matter how dangerous the planet is.

yes i have, and true that expert mode is something that's lacking in starbound but even then the bosses don't take long if you're well geared and well informed of the mechanics. if you're forced to take bosses head on then the arena you've made, if you've prepared and built one, is not big enough. random boss encounters (mechanical bosses) yeah they happen but they die pretty quickly once you're in end game gear the same as everything dies in starbound fast once you're in tier6. i also did say that starbound needed gigantic monsters to fill the oceans and asteroids

Originally posted by Magus Coldfire:

So you can tell me all you want, but if you fight mechanical bosses for example with an adamantite armor set (best you can get up to that point) and a good weapon, you will still have problems with those bosses even when you have a perfect arena prepared.

it's the same in starbound, try doing the missions in the tier they were meant for with legit stuff and they're not that bad as you think they are.

Originally posted by Magus Coldfire:

That's a bad comparisson. Terraria offers many weapons and playstyles and alot of potions you can use. If you have a bad internet connection, you can go for summons, who dont depend on lag so much. And if all have a good internet connection, skill matters alot, since you need to know how to use your mobility and the weapon you use and even melee is useful in Terrarias PvP, since it deals way more damage and the armor sets come with much higher defense then ranged weapons/armor sets.

if you go summoner set, you'd die to a caster or ranger who knows what he's doing. melee is good but only if you can catch up. it's still about who has the better connection and who gets the most burst in.

Originally posted by Magus Coldfire:

I'm not saying that and I'm thankful it isn't. But that doesn't mean Starbound can get even better and with that also appeal to some of the Terraria fans.

Take my suggestion for a new planet type for example: I'm saying that there could be unstable planets that offer a much more lively environment, depending on daytime, weather and also biome (similiar to Terraria). This is for people who love to be in an ever changing environment that offers new dangers and challanges depending on what's going on on the planet. And since this is a planet type, players who dont like these things can totally ignore those planets and go for non-changing ones.

What I'm trying to accomplish here is to take the best things from Terraria and find a way to adapt them into Starbound, without breaking the current Starbound gameplay. I just want Starbound to fully utilize it's potential for getting the best 2d sandbox ever created, which an appeal to all 2d sandbox lovers. :)

yeah i may have gone off and sounded aggressive but im just trying to give you the view of someone who've played terraria for a long time, quit, missed the game but stumbled upon starbound. i apologize if i may have triggered you or something. i am aware of what's wrong with both games and im not denying that starbound needs to improve alot but i also want to starbound distinguish itself from terraria and be the best game it can be.

[Wintermute]

My biggest problems with Starbound don't have anything to do with content, to be honest. It's those simple basic things that Terraria does right while Starbound ♥♥♥♥♥ up.

Why is there no minimap?
Why is there no way to tell where members of your group are?
Why multiplayer is so ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, that if you do quest on other's server, you forever block progression in your own world?
Why edge of the world kills you without any warning?
Why is platforming so horrible? Between retarded drop-down system and constant sliding?
Why is there no way to mitigate fall damage?
Why are there no jetpacks?
Why NPCs are so basic and useless?

Like, for ♥♥♥♥♥ sake. True, terraria didn't have much content at start, but it got foundations right. Also, terraria devs never promised buttload of things they never delivered, and didn't spend their kickstarter money on another game and to move between offices, instead of, you know, developing game...

[Pancake]

oh true minimap! that's one on the list i hate about starbound, what proper adventure game doesnt have a minimap/map system? and you'd think in the future where all the information is in a handheld device that a map of sorts is part of the basic kit lol

[Asferot De Voll]

Originally posted by Wintermute:

My biggest problems with Starbound don't have anything to do with content, to be honest. It's those simple basic things that Terraria does right while Starbound ♥♥♥♥♥ up.

Why is there no minimap?
Why is there no way to tell where members of your group are?
Why multiplayer is so ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, that if you do quest on other's server, you forever block progression in your own world?
Why edge of the world kills you without any warning?
Why is platforming so horrible? Between retarded drop-down system and constant sliding?
Why is there no way to mitigate fall damage?
Why are there no jetpacks?
Why NPCs are so basic and useless?

Like, for ♥♥♥♥♥ sake. True, terraria didn't have much content at start, but it got foundations right. Also, terraria devs never promised buttload of things they never delivered, and didn't spend their kickstarter money on another game and to move between offices, instead of, you know, developing game...

Yea, the platforming is the bggest thing that I really dislike. What is with the sliding all the time? That ♥♥♥♥ has caused a few deaths by just "slipping" off the ledges.

[Magus Coldfire]

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

nothing is bad about it. it's just that some people play the game differently. what's appealing to you may not be for others.

That's why I make suggestions that appeal to both, Terraria and Starbound gamers. I think, thanks to the planet system, that it is perfectly possible to cater both groups.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

yup but i know you're just suggesting nothing bad with that but i did say "what i saw in your post".

Yeah, in game development it's no bad thing to adapt working mechanics from other games, if they are liked by most people. I just think Starbound can be so much more then it is right now. It has a good engaging story which motivates you to visit other planets but I would like to see character progression that goes along with that. I want to have the feeling that the deeper I get into the story, the more I progress with my character.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

i didn't say starbound took long to progress i just said it took abit longer than terraria's if you knew what to do since you had to mine fuel and move into different planets, while in terraria everything is in the world you're in.

But in Terraria, this one world feels way more alive, since that world constantly changes, especially when you get to hard mode. Let me give you some examples:

- In order to enter the dungeon, you need to defeat a boss.
- In order to be able to mine hellstone ore, you need to defeat bosses or/and mine a demonite ore with a golden pickaxe
- And if you want to defeat the bosses, you need to prepare alot. Not just a good arena and some potions, but also good equipment and for that you need to explore different biomes and find chests/crafting material
- Once you have done that, you can defeat the flesh wall in hell, which turns on hardmode
- In hardmode, corruption and holy biome constantly expand very fast. You can counter that with certain useable items or defeating another harder boss (plantera), so the growth of those 2 biomes get slowed down to 33% of the original spread speed
- Since in hardmode very strong monsters spawn, you need new equipment. For that, you need to destroy dark altzars, which let new ores spawn (kobalt, orichalcum, adamantite) and then you have to explore again
- In hardmode, you can also open chests in the dungeon, which you couldnt open in pre-hardmode. For those chests you need keys you can find from enemies. The chests contain strong weapons
- And depending on the progression, you can build tons of equipment/weapons

In starbound, mining fuel isn't something special. You land on the moon and farm those crystals until the ghost spawns. You just teleport back and visit again if you need more fuel. And visiting new planets only serves the purpose of getting new minirals. There's no other reason to stay longer on planets since. Only if you like it looks and want to settle down there or doing 2-3 quests for villagers. But other then that, planets dont really offer alot of variety, sadly.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

but that's not how the game was intended to be played in terms of the main quest missions. it's the same as starting a new character in your terraria world in late game and picking up a nebula/solar/vortex set and chewing thru all the bosses with a phantasm/lastprism/terrarian/sdmg/lunarflare. and let's face it the techs in starbound cannot make you float, run or jump inhumanly fast, or use wings. they're more like bio augmentations which is still limited by the human physique (except the distortion sphere maybe)

That comparison is not quite viable imo. In Terraria, you can't start getting hellstone armor or even better. You need equipment to defeat the worm or a golden pickaxer to farm demonite ore. With the demonite pickaxe you can farm hellstone ore and with good equipment you are able to defeat the wall of flesh in the hell. After that you can craft new armors/weapons. So if you make a new world + new character in T erraria, you will not be able to go the first or second boss with Molten Armor set or even hardmode-equipment. So the best thing you can have in Terraria when getting to the wall of flesh is the molten armor set and before you can get the best armor sets in hardmode, you need to farm the new ores and defeat certain bosses. Your character progression is always linked to the bosses you have defeated so far.

And since this is a fantasy sci-fi game, there is nothing that says bio augmentations must have certain limits. And lets not forget that I suggest overpowered stuff. Players still had to make decision like:

"You have the dash with 0.8 cooldown. You can now upgrade this to air-dash or blink-dash. The first one lets you dahs in air, the second one lets you blink (and no cooldown increasement). After that, you can upgrade again and choose between "cooldown reduced by 50%" or "dash range increased by 50%" and you can do that for both dashes."

Dont see why it would be "overpowered super lighting fast killer machine" if you had air dash + 0.4 seconds cooldown. Or blink dash with 50% higher range (for example). It would give you a feeling for progression, especially if it would be linked to the story line.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

it's also not stopping you from being a melee and using the damage-enhanced tier 6 set. unlike in terraria where if you equip the vortex armor, and use a melee weapon you're not exactly making use of the armor's bonuses since. you can argue that a melee would die faster due to being in close range, but that's what your co-op friends are there for i guess and let's face it, irl-present day, let's say in a warzone, you can kill someone faster with a knife stab to the back or slitting their necks compared to shooting them but you'd risk getting yourself shot

I would ALWAYS take the damage bonus set. So I have a ranged weapon with damage set and a melee weapon with damage set. I could probably deal as much damage as the ranged fighter with my melee fighter, but I have to get into close combat. Since this is a game, weapons should be balanced, so that they both have it's good uses. Right now, you can use ranged weapons even in close combat and you still have the same defense as the melee. And because of this, I wonder why melee weapons exist in the first place, if they are just not viable anymore in endgame.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

yes i have, and true that expert mode is something that's lacking in starbound but even then the bosses don't take long if you're well geared and well informed of the mechanics. if you're forced to take bosses head on then the arena you've made, if you've prepared and built one, is not big enough. random boss encounters (mechanical bosses) yeah they happen but they die pretty quickly once you're in end game gear the same as everything dies in starbound fast once you're in tier6. i also did say that starbound needed gigantic monsters to fill the oceans and asteroids.

Skeleton Boss (expert): Well equipped, nearly died. Had to prepare the land beforehand and uses buff potions and head 400 life (minute 13):

https://youtu.be/DmRmFNOjMXo


The Twins (expert): super well equipped guy with tons of mobility and potions. Fully prepared for the battle. Nearly dies and he was good at moving around:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUXc9UfyoiM


Plantera Boss (expert): well equipped player with strong weapons. In all his tries, he is nearly dying, even with the hollow armoer set and nearly 500 health. And he had to prepare a big arena and uses lots of buffs (potions), which also need to be prepared (alchemy house for example) (minute 6):

https://youtu.be/mepBsOnzGUg


And the good thing is: Those bosses happen in the world your playing in. They are not just premade worlds where you can build anything. The world gives you the freedom to prepare for the battle and play it in the world you have crafted/manipulated by your own hands. That's what makes sandbox games interesting. Starbound however forces you to do those boss fights in prebuild arenas, sadly. Well, they could make story bosses like the ones that exist already and ofc random boss encounters on the planets, to make things more interesting. And each planet could have his own boss or bosses, depending on the environment (The scanner could say: My biological scans show, that there is a big strong creature living in the underground" or something like that.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

it's the same in starbound, try doing the missions in the tier they were meant for with legit stuff and they're not that bad as you think they are.

And that's the problem: I was doing the story mission at the start and found a vendor that sold me strong equipment. I bought it and was overpowered. I fought the giant spider and it didn't even hit me once. And even if it would have, you can constantly use salve/medic kits to heal yourself, because there's no limit for that. In Terraria, there is potion sickness to avoid the abuse of potions.

To tell you what: I defeated dreadwing as soon as I had all the mobility skills and a ranged weapon. It took forever and he hit me for 60 damage with his tackle at the start, but if you take out all the penguins beforehand and you are good at dodging, the boss could be beaten. And that boiss should have cleared overpowered me. In Terraria, you could defeat wall of flash with just wooden armor and double jump. You need to prepare alot more for that fight, especially in expert.

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

if you go summoner set, you'd die to a caster or ranger who knows what he's doing. melee is good but only if you can catch up. it's still about who has the better connection and who gets the most burst in.

But as a ranged you can stay on distance and burst damage, while melee has to get close to you and even if he gets close, he will not be able to do more damage then then ranged enemy, because damage spikes are very similiar. So why go melee in the first place, especially since ranged also has alot of weapon with AoE damage?

Originally posted by Shogunyan:

yeah i may have gone off and sounded aggressive but im just trying to give you the view of someone who've played terraria for a long time, quit, missed the game but stumbled upon starbound. i apologize if i may have triggered you or something. i am aware of what's wrong with both games and im not denying that starbound needs to improve alot but i also want to starbound distinguish itself from terraria and be the best game it can be.

Nah, you didn't trigger me. It's the opposite. I liked that you have read my post (it's really tl;dr, so I understand if people dont read it) and I think a good healthy discussion helps pointing out issues. :)

[Hakuna]

I read all of it. To be honest, you all mostly seem to be focusing mainly on combat mechanics and other "action adventure" type issues, for example, melee vs. ranged, quests with purpose, depth to skills and weapons, platforming issues, boss fights, pacing & challenge of combat, PvP, etc. The market is saturated with "action adventure" games, and I came here primarily for the sandboxing, which very few games really focus on. To be clear, just because a game allows you to move around blocks, doesn't make it a sandbox ... althougth that certainly helps. A sandbox is about interacting with a dynamic environment, that changes as you interact with it, a fight for knowledge, understanding, and survival. I like that we started off essentially like Robinson Caruso, shipwrecked on a planet, and trying to learn, explore, and grow from the experience. I do wish it was more dynamic, and that planets would actually change depending on what you *did* to them, instead of going the insta-gratification route of terraformers. I'm currently exploring a radioactive toxic wasteland planet, and it sure looks like it got that way, because of what the previous inhabitants did to it. I like that feel, very much. If it were up to me, *none* of the progression would be gated behind any boss fights or storyline, because fundamentally, a sandbox should be the player's own story to write. I'm fine with there being a storyline and the accompanying boss-fights, as something cool to achieve and do, but it should be at a time and place of the player's own choosing, in true sandboxing style. Personally, I have built an extensive farming and exploratory complex on the starting world, using mostly basic tech, hard work, and ingenuity. Why? Because that pleases me, as I progress on my terms within the sandbox universe. I have explored other planets, but never in a rush to be done with the game in a record number of hours. Instead, I did it as part of my character's evolution and growth. For me, the game won't be finished when I beat the final boss or have all end-game equipment. It will only be finished if and when my character loses interest in the building and exploration that await along the path of his unique story within the sandbox universe.