Havel the rock discussion

[ZimpPymp]

Hi people i was wondering what you think about havel do you think that it is him in the tower? Or do you think it is one of his warriors me personaly think its not him at all cuz it says that havel never wore the ring so it would be weird if he specificly dropped his ring. But in my opinion he has eaither died or he has escaped lodran and hid away. In anor londo you find another dragon tooth indicating that theres more than 1 dragon tooth and i think its not impossible to just cuz a shield out of stone.And in my opinion havel was larger and was a much better fighterthen who we meet and in our fight whoever the guy in havels armor is never uses any miracles unlike havel who was a high ranking bishop. And im gonna sound like a optimist here but i think hes the first born child of gwyn i mean all clubs and the dragon tooth can be enchanted with sunlightblade and he had only love for weapons and showed no respect for anything else and he has enough faith to do the sunlight blade miracle it says he was a close fighter aside gwyn so i think its not him in the tower and he is still alive somewhere and that hes the firstborn child of gwyn. What do you think about my theory? and sorry that this was a long post ^^

[The Bells Toll]

Unfortunately, I'd have to disagree. While you're theory does have its merits, and is entirely possible, it's just not what I believe.

Havel's Ring is, as you say, worn by his men as well (never confirmed whether or not he himself wears it) so it is possible that it's just one of his men. However, the key to Havel's room, the Watchtower Basement Key, describes a hero being locked away by a friend because the hero went hollow. I think if one of Havel's men was considered a hero, we'd probably know his name. Also, though I can't remember specifically where, I believe it's mentioned that Havel and Gwyn were friends. Considering that to get the key, you have to get past a minion of Seath's (Moonlight Butterfly), and off the petrified (and thus prolly cursed) body of a smith that also had the Divine Ember, I think its safe to say that the person in the watchtower is very important.

As for how and why he's using his armor and weapon, despite them being stored in a secret room in Anor Londo, the elite knight armor set specifically hints at Oscar as being the wearer. Yet, the set is found in the garden, and not off Oscar's body. This, plus several other such instances, leads me to believe that there's something odd about the hollowing process - that somehow hollowed warriors initially keep some form of their equipment, even if only a spiritual version, on them when they first go full hollow.

So, what I think happened is, when Seath was made a Duke by Gwyn, Havel lost his mind, having dedicated himself to fighting magic and therefore, Seath as well. Gwyn, unable to just kill his friend, instead locked him away, storing his equipment in a hidden room in Anor Londo. Seath, knowing that Havel was dangerous to him, ensured that Havel would never get loose again by cursing the one given the key to Havel's prison, a trusted blacksmith of the Gods (Gwyn et al), and setting a crystal butterfly to guard it.

Course, like everything, this is just my theory, and not confirmed.

[iridiumHatAndCoat]

It's interesting to think that the hollow in the tower is not the "real" Havel. That's a new idea to me, and pretty fascinating.

Another theory I like has to do with the Occult Club in Anor Londo, in the same room as Havel's armor. Havel fights with clubs; occult weapons kill gods. That was Havel's hidden supply room for his plan.

According to this theory, Havel had figured out the dark secrets of the gods. He figured out the end-game spoilers, whatever, all of it. He decided he had to go put an end to his old ally Gwyn, for the good of all. And he was preparing to go take him out. And then Gwyn found out about the impending treachery and locked Havel up in a tower to lose his mind and go hollow.

Though you make a really good point about Havel *the bishop* not having any miracles. Maybe he lost his faith when he discovered the truth about the gods, or maybe Gwyn stripped him of his power somehow?

[Dabs McCoy]

I just think Havel got locked away because he turned undead. he was human wasn't he?
him being hollow makes sense why he attacked you, and since there was undead hunts... well... maybe he got locked away "for his own good"? so he didnt get hunted down and stuff? :o
i dunno. so maneh dang theorys >.<

[LagMan_PT]

How didnt he blast the door with the giant dragon tooth/claw is behond me, since he can one hit you with his mightiest strike

[The Bells Toll]

Gotta remember that he's hollow in that tower, whoever he really is. Hollows dont really have much in the way of intelligence. It's more just zombie-like smash anything that isn't fully hollow too. I'm guessing that's why he doesn't break out, or use miracles.

[Alias]

Again from wiki

In an indeterminate time before the event of the game, he became Hollow and was locked in the watchtower for his own good.

http://darksouls.wikidot.com/havel-the-rock

[ZimpPymp]

Hmmmmm mabey it is him in the tower? But i think if it was the real havel he could just smash open the door with his dragon tooth or use wrath of the gods before he went hollow if he even is hollow cuz if you take off his helmet with cheats you can see that hes human or atleast appears to be and if he was undead wouldnt he respawn at the bonfire if he was humanmabey hes not undead and is just waiting to kill someone cuz he does not respawn? Or it could really be him in the tower i just really like to be as i call it a rainbowsandsunshinemist (one that belives everything went well) mabey he is there to kill everyone cuz he went nuts possibly. i mean one of his warriors could be a hero. In my opinion the watchtower basement key is talking about a warrior that got betrayed by havel or did some dumb stuff to havel and got locked away.

[The Bells Toll]

Hollow doesn't necessarily mean zombie face. To go fully hollow means losing your purpose and thus your mind, not just dying and turning into zombie form. Someone who has gone fully hollow becomes essentially mindless. For example, Gwyn, the endgame boss, is a full hollow. All he does in the fight is charge slash charge slash grab slash slash slash and so on. And yet, he's supposed to have lightning spears and command legions.

Again, you could be right, it may very well not be Havel himself there. But, you can't discount the theory that it is indeed him just because he doesn't use his abilities or intelligence. As for removing the helmet, it could be one of two things. First, if someone who loses their mind and goes full hollow isn't actually killed after becoming so, does he still go zombie-face? I'm not sure that he would, though we aren't given info either way.

Or, it could be that the devs use the human body/face as the base to build their characters off of, and since Havel was never meant to be seen without his helmet, they didn't bother to zombify his face. You do have to use cheats to take it off, so I doubt it's intended, but dunno. Maybe the devs thought that far, maybe they didn't.

Ultimately, we don't know for sure, but it is fun to speculate. And to hear about other's theories. That's a big part of why I love this game so much.

[Schindler's Fist™]

As far as the armor thing goes, I believe Knight Solaire gives us the answer to that one. Didn't he say something about alternate dimensions blending together? I'm pretty sure that's how you get certain NPCs armor without (or after) killing them. For example: Black Iron Tarkus. You can summon him to the Iron Golem fight and then afterwards you find his (at least I assume it's his) body in the cathedral in Anor Londo. How did it get there? Well we can assume that Tarkus massacred the Golem in his world, just like he does in your game, and then made it to Anor Londo but was slain by those damn painting guardians. Or when you invade Lautrec's world and kill him there then find his gear in your world. That kind of stuff happens all the time, it's not unreasonable to assume that even if you killed Havel in your world, hemade it to Anor Londo in a different one. Or maybe in that alternate universe Gwyn did kill him instead of locking him up and that's why you find his armor in a chest. Who knows.

[Raigavin]

Killing Havel in the game is my business and business is booming.

[Alias]

Again from wiki

In an indeterminate time before the event of the game, he became Hollow and was locked in the watchtower for his own good.

http://darksouls.wikidot.com/havel-the-rock

[capo.lex]

Mordax の投稿を引用：

Again from wiki

In an indeterminate time before the event of the game, he became Hollow and was locked in the watchtower for his own good.

http://darksouls.wikidot.com/havel-the-rock

We understand, but like all the wikis it is not official and could not be true.

[Brecor]

This discussion might be aided by some theories surrounding Havel The Rock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hHYculSLDY&list=PLf6R7zJ4pJ54uGef6QiU82O0sKeJhQIyw&index=10

[The Bells Toll]

Mordax の投稿を引用：

Again from wiki

In an indeterminate time before the event of the game, he became Hollow and was locked in the watchtower for his own good.

http://darksouls.wikidot.com/havel-the-rock

Like most things in Dark Souls, the wiki's info here is conjecture, not fact. It never says in-game that Havel was locked in the watchtower for going insane, just that a hero was, by a dear friend. A lot of people assume that it is Havel because he drops Havel's Ring, and wears the Havel set, both of which have descriptions on them that say not just Havel wore them, but his warriors. Hell, they don't even confirm that Havel himself ever wore that armor and ring.

Wiki's aren't unassailable facts, but are written by people. And when it comes to a game like Dark Souls, with the way it presents its lore, those people might not always be right. But, you've gotta have something to write out for the page, right? So, they go with the most prevalent theory.

And that's the word of the day - theory. Some things are facts, some are not. Whether or not that's truly Havel himself is not, and that's why these kinds of debates happen.

[Lman]

brentnotbroken の投稿を引用：

It's interesting to think that the hollow in the tower is not the "real" Havel. That's a new idea to me, and pretty fascinating.

Another theory I like has to do with the Occult Club in Anor Londo, in the same room as Havel's armor. Havel fights with clubs; occult weapons kill gods. That was Havel's hidden supply room for his plan.

According to this theory, Havel had figured out the dark secrets of the gods. He figured out the end-game spoilers, whatever, all of it. He decided he had to go put an end to his old ally Gwyn, for the good of all. And he was preparing to go take him out. And then Gwyn found out about the impending treachery and locked Havel up in a tower to lose his mind and go hollow.

Though you make a really good point about Havel *the bishop* not having any miracles. Maybe he lost his faith when he discovered the truth about the gods, or maybe Gwyn stripped him of his power somehow?

Good theory, I have forgoten the ending so is gwyn hollow when you fight him?. Probably completely unrelated question I know :L.