DARK SOULS™: Prepare To Die Edition

DARK SOULS™: Prepare To Die Edition

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Is it too frustrating?
I'm interested in this game but is it too frustrating? Do you find yourself in anger frequently?
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Affichage des commentaires 31 à 45 sur 63
Genya Arikado a écrit :
This is not the game for you then. It will be very frustrating at parts of the game but it is also very rewarding too.

Who are you even responding to?
Don't worry bout him. He must be on twitch right now.
People say the game's 100% fair and every death is 100% the player's fault but that's really not true. It's a lot of trial and error if you're going in blind. A LOT of trial and error. So I recommend reading wikis and ♥♥♥♥ before going in if you want to avoid that, screw what other people say. The game does have its share of cheap shots you can only avoid by reading a wiki beforehand. For example, keep in mind that when you first encounter Seath the Scaleless in the Duke's Archive, you can't kill him, but he WILL kill you, it's necessary to progress the game, and you'll wake up in a jail cell (just when you thought you had the game's clear set of established rules down, it breaks one of them), and then the only way to retrieve your bloodstain (souls, humanity) is to run back to the room to obtain them (which is a long walk from where you wake up, and I believe Seath respawns anyway so good luck with that). Make sure to equip a Ring of Sacrifice before going in. Or, in case he curse-kills you, a Rare Ring of Sacrifice, or a regular Ring of Sacrifice and then use a purging stone (a relatively common item drop from clams in Ash Lake, also in Crystal Cave but you won't get there until after the Duke's Archive, and is where you fight Seath himself - keep in mind that he also doesn't have a boss fog door like other bosses when you walk in to fight him in the Crystal Cave - you just walk in a big room and bam! Fight begins whether you were prepared or not - just remember his arena is the big room in front of all the claims - kill them beforehand so they don't follow you into the fight - if you die to Seath and walk all the way back on the annoying invisible walkways but of course a boss fog door appears THEN - thanks game for the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥!).

Also, The Bed of Chaos. The boss that causes the floor to crumble beneath you as you walk on it. Something you won't be expecting, unless you read a wiki. A boss so awful that even the game's creator apologized for it, a boss so excruciatingly awful that when they designed it they made it so when you destroy parts of it they don't respawn when you die, and where you can just quit and reload your game to start back outside the boss fog door so you don't have to deal with QUITE as many crumbling floors, tree hands sweeping you into those holes or giant fire scythes stun-locking you to make the sweeping tree hands' job easier to knock you down into those holes).

Oh yeah the Capra Demon and Ceaseless Discharge, easy bosses IF you know what to bring in, are pretty blatant cheap shots for any newcomers not knowing what to expect. The Capra Demon, a boss that bumrushes you with two pack dogs the moment you walk into his closet space and ganks you like hell and then you die. If you have a shield with good stability and 100% physical protection and/or enchant it with a Magic Shield to ward off his initial attack (Magic Shield is actually highly recommended regardless even if all you have is a Cracked Round Shield or Plank Shield), then spam him with a good weapon (the two best weapons this early on in the game for this would either be the Drake Sword, the best starter weapon by far but not so useful later on, and a Black Knight Sword if you can get it, which actually is a pretty decent weapon for the majority of the game, especially once you upgrade it to +5). Ceaseless Discharge, once you unleash his wrath (by touching his favorite dresswear - actually I think the "lore" reason might be it was one of his deceased sister's outfits and you're essentially committing graverobbery against one of his dead family members), he will smash you to pieces, and his attacks are unavoidable and un-dodgeable in the position you're in no matter what. THEN you figure out the trick is to either 1) die (not recommended) 2) Homeward Bone/Homeward miracle your way back to the last bonfire immediately after you pick up the clothing (highly recommended). THEN you have to run all the way back to the boss fog door and run and hide in a crevice where he launches his hand attack in the tiny space where you can actually dodge it this time, over and over again and attack him, rinse, repeat until he's dead. Really, really badly designed bosses if you ask me.

And there's a ton of other things you'll have no idea about as the game doesn't tell and you'll either stumble upon them from trial-and-error on the level of Leisure Suit Larry 2 or King's Quest 5 or be smart and read a wiki. Like, would you have any idea about The Abyss, how to access it and how to traverse it without dying? No, nobody would except by accident/luck/reading. Would anyone know about what items you can trade with Snuggly the Crow, where Snuggly is located or that there even is a "Snuggly the Crow" in the first place? No, except by accident/luck/reading (especially since Snuggly doesn't always immediately respond when you walk to its nest). The importance of poise and what it does? Etc.? The game teaches you the basics via messages in the beginning area but it's definitely not enough to be able to make it through the entire game without needless frustration. Playing the game is masochistic enough, you don't need to add to it by playing completely blind (good for some instances, definitely not the above mentioned things).

It is also entirely fair to blame things like shoddy collision, like inexplicable invisible walls or falling through solid floors (the latter is an extremely rare occurrence but it can happen, it did to me twice), enemies clipping their attacks through walls, and the rather wonky camera and lock-on if you die. Things that you'll probably learn to deal with as you go on but saying the dying is a result of "fairness," "playing dumb," "100% your fault" is not true. It's an engaging game but not without some glaring flaws that people don't bother mentioning either because of blind fanboyism or being too busy dogpiling on Dark Souls 2 for whatever its misgivings are (i.e. one of them being that Miyazaki didn't have a 100% hand in the game's making, I wonder how much that colors people's perceptions about that game...).
Dernière modification de FirstUtterance; 20 aout 2015 à 10h29
FirstUtterance a écrit :
Like, would you have any idea about The Abyss, how to access it and how to traverse it without dying? No, nobody would except by accident/luck/reading.
The dude you get the flood gate key from(which is mandatory, unless you killed him for it in which case it's your fault) tells you straight out that they lurk in the abyss and you can't do anything currently. He then tells you to go find art whatever his name is as he was able to lurk in the abyss. Unfortunatly this means you have to remember that the first black smith sells his seal for the woods, but hey, it's not like they didn't warn you.

I'm surprised you didn't mention mimics. The first one you meet is in Sen's fortress(probably, at least it was for me), which will likely one hit you as you have no clue that this game will have them. For those experianced it's easy to spot them, but new players probably won't even notice that they have chains, meaning every time they see a chest then on it's a mandatory whack.
Dernière modification de Armstrong Houston; 20 aout 2015 à 10h57
It is not frustating at all. But this depends on how you take the game. Whenever you die, it is almost always kinda like your fault. All you have to do is "well, I did this, then I died, so I will avoid doing this last time".

For instance, Manus killed me just right now. I was charging him to deliver the final blow, but he just killed me with one special attack hit. My reaction: "well, never charge Manus". Just that. Also, if you are dying too much, just turn of the game and go do something useful, or play another game, then you can come and play again after you feel like you can do it. It is funny, but Dark Souls can be perfect for a casual gamer like me :)
Holy cats FirstUtterance just published an encyclopedia. Eyes melting.
Just read it, he has a lot of valid points.
Armstrong Houston a écrit :
FirstUtterance a écrit :
Like, would you have any idea about The Abyss, how to access it and how to traverse it without dying? No, nobody would except by accident/luck/reading.
I'm surprised you didn't mention mimics. The first one you meet is in Sen's fortress(probably, at least it was for me), which will likely one hit you as you have no clue that this game will have them. For those experianced it's easy to spot them, but new players probably won't even notice that they have chains, meaning every time they see a chest then on it's a mandatory whack.
Actually I would say the mimics are probably the best "unpleasant surprise" in the game. I managed to run into a reading about them before I encountered them so it was spoiled for me, but of every beginner's trap the game puts in, this one I think is the most genius. Open chest, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, it's eating me alive! Gives you a good jump scare and makes you paranoid about any and every chest you encounter from then on (IF you're a new player, again as I said), further adding to the sense of unease and that nothing is safe, not even treasure chests can be trusted (for a future Souls game I'd like to see corpses with items on their person suddenly wake up and grab you to eat your brains when you go to grab their loot - I know the closest the game has to this is using corpses with loot as bait where enemies swarm or act aggressive you when you touch them). I do like that they try and distinguish between regular and mimic chests by the way the chains are positioned, a subtle detail easy to miss, but I imagine players traumatized by a mimic encounter will be trying from then on to try and learn examine chests to see if they can figure out which ones are real or not (that mimic chests "breathe" is also a brilliant touch). I've even think I've seen the chains of some of them shift when I ran into them. It looked kind of weird and glitchy but then again it also makes for a good indicator for when you see a mimic and makes them seem more "alive."

What I don't get is why Lloyd's Talismans pacify them. Item that prevents enemies/other players from using estus = mimics stop to behave themselves so you can take their item without any violence? I don't see the connection. Is there a "lore" or even game logic reason behind this that I'm missing or something? All I can connect is that the Symbol of Avarice, a mimic drop, a helm that is basically a big mimic chest, drains your health, and you need estus to keep your health going, so Lloyd's Talisman, which prevents using estus, so therefore... I'm making my head hurt.
Dernière modification de FirstUtterance; 20 aout 2015 à 12h00
Big McHugeLarge a écrit :
Holy cats FirstUtterance just published an encyclopedia. Eyes melting.
I get that a lot. I write long posts, often unwittingly. It's a quirk of mine I guess. It also makes writing reviews with character limits a challenge.
FirstUtterance a écrit :
People say the game's 100% fair and every death is 100% the player's fault but that's really not true. It's a lot of trial and error if you're going in blind. A LOT of trial and error.

There really isn't that much trial and error. about the only time you run into it is the bed of chaos. The game is, for the most part, fair.

FirstUtterance a écrit :
For example, keep in mind that when you first encounter Seath the Scaleless in the Duke's Archive, you can't kill him, but he WILL kill you, it's necessary to progress the game, and you'll wake up in a jail cell (just when you thought you had the game's clear set of established rules down, it breaks one of them), and then the only way to retrieve your bloodstain (souls, humanity) is to run back to the room to obtain them (which is a long walk from where you wake up, and I believe Seath respawns anyway so good luck with that). Make sure to equip a Ring of Sacrifice before going in. Or, in case he curse-kills you, a Rare Ring of Sacrifice, or a regular Ring of Sacrifice and then use a purging stone....

Am I the only one who habitually buys rings of sacrifice to put on when I walk through a fog wall?

FirstUtterance a écrit :
....is where you fight Seath himself - keep in mind that he also doesn't have a boss fog door like other bosses when you walk in to fight him in the Crystal Cave -

You run into the clam things well before you run into seath in the crystal caves

FirstUtterance a écrit :
you just walk in a big room and bam! Fight begins whether you were prepared or not - just remember his arena is the big room in front of all the claims - kill them beforehand so they don't follow you into the fight - if you die to Seath and walk all the way back on the annoying invisible walkways but of course a boss fog door appears THEN - thanks game for the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥!).

The game establishes that fog wall =/= boss fight all the time very early on in the game. It also establishes that you should be paranoid.

FirstUtterance a écrit :
Also, The Bed of Chaos. The boss that causes the floor to crumble beneath you as you walk on it. Something you won't be expecting, unless you read a wiki. A boss so awful that even the game's creator apologized for it, a boss so excruciatingly awful that when they designed it they made it so when you destroy parts of it they don't respawn when you die, and where you can just quit and reload your game to start back outside the boss fog door so you don't have to deal with QUITE as many crumbling floors, tree hands sweeping you into those holes or giant fire scythes stun-locking you to make the sweeping tree hands' job easier to knock you down into those holes).

Yes, the one of two bosses in the game that happens to be complete and utter ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ (the other being O&S).
Hint: you can cheese him with a bow

FirstUtterance a écrit :
Oh yeah the Capra Demon and Ceaseless Discharge, easy bosses IF you know what to bring in, are pretty blatant cheap shots for any newcomers not knowing what to expect. The Capra Demon, a boss that bumrushes you with two pack dogs the moment you walk into his closet space and ganks you like hell and then you die. If you have a shield with good stability and 100% physical protection and/or enchant it with a Magic Shield to ward off his initial attack (Magic Shield is actually highly recommended regardless even if all you have is a Cracked Round Shield or Plank Shield), then spam him with a good weapon (the two best weapons this early on in the game for this would either be the Drake Sword, the best starter weapon by far but not so useful later on, and a Black Knight Sword if you can get it, which actually is a pretty decent weapon for the majority of the game, especially once you upgrade it to +5).

This fight is really quick thinking more than trial and error. If you try to block his attack, you're actually shooting yourself in the foot (after all, we have the wonderful trick called rolling). The fight is designed to get you to panic (with the claustraphobic space and guy swinging two massive swords at you while you're being mauled by dogs), but is actually simple when you keep your cool and try to figure out your surroundings.

FirstUtterance a écrit :
Ceaseless Discharge, once you unleash his wrath (by touching his favorite dresswear - actually I think the "lore" reason might be it was one of his deceased sister's outfits and you're essentially committing graverobbery against one of his dead family members), he will smash you to pieces, and his attacks are unavoidable and un-dodgeable in the position you're in no matter what. THEN you figure out the trick is to either 1) die (not recommended) 2) Homeward Bone/Homeward miracle your way back to the last bonfire immediately after you pick up the clothing (highly recommended). THEN you have to run all the way back to the boss fog door and run and hide in a crevice where he launches his hand attack in the tiny space where you can actually dodge it this time, over and over again and attack him, rinse, repeat until he's dead. Really, really badly designed bosses if you ask me.

1) he's actually designed to be a boss you fight MUCH later in the game than you encounter him (most rational people, assuming you learn quickly what dark souls is like, dont randomly explore that area; they head to above ground where a bunch of stuff just happened.)

2) you can literally run (sprint) by and away from him, triggering him to follow you (if you insist on fighting him there). I suppose this would be that bit about needing to read ahead to know what's coming, but point 1 nullifies that.


FirstUtterance a écrit :
And there's a ton of other things you'll have no idea about as the game doesn't tell and you'll either stumble upon them from trial-and-error on the level of Leisure Suit Larry 2 or King's Quest 5 or be smart and read a wiki. Like, would you have any idea about The Abyss, how to access it and how to traverse it without dying? No, nobody would except by accident/luck/reading. Would anyone know about what items you can trade with Snuggly the Crow, where Snuggly is located or that there even is a "Snuggly the Crow" in the first place? No, except by accident/luck/reading (especially since Snuggly doesn't always immediately respond when you walk to its nest). The importance of poise and what it does? Etc.? The game teaches you the basics via messages in the beginning area but it's definitely not enough to be able to make it through the entire game without needless frustration. Playing the game is masochistic enough, you don't need to add to it by playing completely blind (good for some instances, definitely not the above mentioned things).

The game tells you quite a lot actually, you just have to look for it (sorry you're used to games holding your hand?).

Abyss: The npc in the red robes actually tells you to look for Artorias the abyss walker. NPC's in all games tend to tell you important things, dark souls is no exception.

Snuggly: While I am contradicting my earlier point (about ceaseless), Snuggly is fairly easy to find (as is what you can trade with him/her/it, especially since he/she/it tells you what it wants in an admittedly vague manner).

Poise, like any other stat, has an explanation in game. I'm not going to spell out how to use in-game menus to learn how the game works. You not reading everything in the menu =/= the game failing to explain it's mechanics for you.

FirstUtterance a écrit :
It is also entirely fair to blame things like shoddy collision, like inexplicable invisible walls or falling through solid floors (the latter is an extremely rare occurrence but it can happen, it did to me twice), enemies clipping their attacks through walls, and the rather wonky camera and lock-on if you die. Things that you'll probably learn to deal with as you go on but saying the dying is a result of "fairness," "playing dumb," "100% your fault" is not true. It's an engaging game but not without some glaring flaws that people don't bother mentioning either because of blind fanboyism or being too busy dogpiling on Dark Souls 2 for whatever its misgivings are (i.e. one of them being that Miyazaki didn't have a 100% hand in the game's making, I wonder how much that colors people's perceptions about that game...).

I'll give you that the game has glitches (which, are not an intended part of the game and are unfair). However, a multitude of problems that you brought up were in fact non-issues to the overly cautious and anyone who pays attention.
FirstUtterance a écrit :
Big McHugeLarge a écrit :
Holy cats FirstUtterance just published an encyclopedia. Eyes melting.
I get that a lot. I write long posts, often unwittingly. It's a quirk of mine I guess. It also makes writing reviews with character limits a challenge.

I envy the fact that you can write a post more than few sentences long.
Mr. Vulcanator a écrit :
FirstUtterance a écrit :
I get that a lot. I write long posts, often unwittingly. It's a quirk of mine I guess. It also makes writing reviews with character limits a challenge.

I envy the fact that you can write a post more than few sentences long.

It's really not that hard to do (but I do still commend the folks who do), it's just having the faith that someone will read a post that is more than a few sentences long that happens to be challenging.
Nolo Contendere a écrit :
Mr. Vulcanator a écrit :

I envy the fact that you can write a post more than few sentences long.

It's really not that hard to do (but I do still commend the folks who do), it's just having the faith that someone will read a post that is more than a few sentences long that happens to be challenging.

I mean that I can't think of anything else to write, or I can't articulate my points well enough.
Mr. Vulcanator a écrit :
Nolo Contendere a écrit :

It's really not that hard to do (but I do still commend the folks who do), it's just having the faith that someone will read a post that is more than a few sentences long that happens to be challenging.

I mean that I can't think of anything else to write, or I can't articulate my points well enough.

Ah, well....
in the first case: then there probably isn't anything more to say (translation: nothing to worry about!)
in the second case: that comes with practice (tranlation: nothing to worry about!)
Nolo Contendere a écrit :
Am I the only one who habitually buys rings of sacrifice to put on when I walk through a fog wall?
Doesn't matter, the point is you shouldn't HAVE to for every fight. Bait-and-switch "fission mailed" crap like that first Seath encounter doesn't belong in a game like this.

Nolo Contendere a écrit :
You run into the clam things well before you run into seath in the crystal caves
I know that. The point being that if someone wants to run past them instead of taking them on one by one you'll just lead them into a big fight with them AND Seath unwittingly.

Nolo Contendere a écrit :
The game establishes that fog wall =/= boss fight all the time very early on in the game. It also establishes that you should be paranoid.
When? Where does it establish this? The only other boss I can think of is Sif, and he's blocked by a gigantic-ass door with a giant, suspicious-looking sword in the ground in the middle of the field. Yes the game is to make you paranoid but with some sort of precedent. There aren't any indicators like with Sif that there is going to be a boss fight other than a jutted-out crystal that is small and hard to see because of all the vaseline on the screen. If anything they should have made it so when you walk in the room not to trigger the boss fight until you actually manually walk yourself toward the crystal, like with Sif and the big sword. Instead it starts immediately. The fact that they put a boss fog door AFTER you get killed the first time (if you do) just feels like a slap in the face to me.

Nolo Contendere a écrit :
This fight is really quick thinking more than trial and error. If you try to block his attack, you're actually shooting yourself in the foot (after all, we have the wonderful trick called rolling). The fight is designed to get you to panic (with the claustraphobic space and guy swinging two massive swords at you while you're being mauled by dogs), but is actually simple when you keep your cool and try to figure out your surroundings.
Yes like I said it is an easy fight if you expect it AND know what to do, but otherwise it is kind of a cheap shot for a beginner.

And I prefer blocking to rolling when walking in, a mistimed roll can get a big chunk of health eaten off, if not kill you. A good shield, especially with Magic Shield, gives you better levity and preparation to fight him.

Nolo Contendere a écrit :
1) he's actually designed to be a boss you fight MUCH later in the game than you encounter him (most rational people, assuming you learn quickly what dark souls is like, dont randomly explore that area; they head to above ground where a bunch of stuff just happened.)

2) you can literally run (sprint) by and away from him, triggering him to follow you (if you insist on fighting him there). I suppose this would be that bit about needing to read ahead to know what's coming, but point 1 nullifies that.

1) It doesn't matter when you fight him. If you don't know what's coming he'll still power-slam you to death. He's just as easy/hard to fight whether you do so right after Quelaag or after you get the Lordvessel (I always fight him after Quelaag so I can loot the place as much as I can until I can pass the Gold Fog later on).

2) Running/sprinting away from him after you've agitated him isn't very effective, if at all, even unencumbered, his attacks are powerful and far-reaching and practically home in on you. It's only when you re-enter the fog gate that you're given enough leeway to run past him and enter the crevice where you fight him. I say the boss is badly designed not just because of the initial cheap shots but also the strategy to fighting him, which is literally exploiting one attack over and over and over again that he stupidly uses in a spot you can hide from and hitting him. It's really lame. If you manage to kill him by standing at the fog gate and knocking him down the bottomless pit it isn't much cheesier than the "real" way to fight him, it just gets the fight over with quicker (unless they patched this out, I have no idea).


Nolo Contendere a écrit :
The game tells you quite a lot actually, you just have to look for it (sorry you're used to games holding your hand?).
Cut out that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ condescending attitude, please. This isn't a matter of hand-holding or not. It's about... direction. Now I do think this game handles this aspect fairly well for the most part but in other instances it doesn't. Also, despite what you and other blind fans of this game may think, games aren't black and white. Games aren't either "hand-holding kiddie fare" or "Dark Souls." Gray areas exist. Games that challenge for different reasons exist. I like many different games, easy, hard, and ones in between. Quality isn't always a matter of its challenge level, though it can be, it just depends. Now I do like Dark Souls, I just think there are a number of annoyances that only stand out more because nobody either thinks they are flaws or they don't bother to address them and if you do you just want a game that "holds your hand." Keep unwarranted judgments to yourself, please.

Nolo Contendere a écrit :
Abyss: The npc in the red robes actually tells you to look for Artorias the abyss walker. NPC's in all games tend to tell you important things, dark souls is no exception.
If I recall he doesn't tell you about this until you get the Lordvessel. Seeing how it's an area a player can easily run through and loot (with a Transient Curse of course) early on the importance of his character can be missed (hell, the character himself can be missed if one fails to catch sight of the ladder in the fireplace in the room full of ghosts ganging up on you). Maybe I'm mistaken. I'd have to talk to Ingward again. Still, if one decides NOT to read a wiki or get information from a third party otherwise, one would have to make a series of connections between a ring dropped by a giant wolf in the forest, a drowned town full of ghosts, that you are to open the floodgates to said drowned town by getting a key from a guy in red robes AFTER obtaining a certain item (trying to make the connection that a boss you need to fight resides here) and remember to put on the ring before entering the boss room (the last part is probably the least difficult to figure out if you read the ring's description but it's an easy thing to forget about later on after doing so many other things). It can be quite vague without a bit of direction to push one in. Now I read a lot about this game before diving in so I knew a lot about this already but for someone who doesn't there's not many things to go on (maybe the locked levers and the locked gate you run into are the best indicators that there's more to the place than what one would find initially).

Nolo Contendere a écrit :
Snuggly: While I am contradicting my earlier point (about ceaseless), Snuggly is fairly easy to find (as is what you can trade with him/her/it, especially since he/she/it tells you what it wants in an admittedly vague manner).
Alright so my point about Snuggly still stands. In fairness it isn't at all necessary to know Snuggly even exists to make it through the game, so it's more a hidden bonus than anything.

Poise, like any other stat, has an explanation in game. I'm not going to spell out how to use in-game menus to learn how the game works. You not reading everything in the menu =/= the game failing to explain it's mechanics for you.
OK I'll give you this one, that the "back" button is indicated on the stats screen to explain things. I think I was thinking of another menu screen where the back button could be used to explain things but wasn't indicated (it was the explanation for weapon stats, like most people would probably have any idea what "MagAdjust" is without the back explanation button).

Nolo Contendere a écrit :
I'll give you that the game has glitches (which, are not an intended part of the game and are unfair). However, a multitude of problems that you brought up were in fact non-issues to the overly cautious and anyone who pays attention.
Well I think you are wrong about some of your counterpoints (especially regarding Seath) and other things (namely Ceaseless Discharge) you might have missed the point I was making altogether. I stand corrected about poise, and Snuggly only to a certain extent since it's not a necessary part of the game. The Abyss, I suppose it's a matter of perspective. It's basically a lot of detective work. How convoluted and vague the detective work is, that's one's prerogative. I think something like that works in an adventure game. It's more frustrating in a game involving miles of trekking back and forth and dying a lot.
Dernière modification de FirstUtterance; 20 aout 2015 à 13h46
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Posté le 19 aout 2015 à 15h52
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