Solaire... lore explanation (***spoilers***)

[Kerg]

So what were the dev's thinking here with the actions you have to take to save him?

You have to join the chaos demon covenant to save him, meaning Sunlight covenant people get to watch their favorite NPC die by their hands. Any meaning here? i.e. a relation between the sun and chaos?

Or were they just thinking... what is the least f***ing likely thing people will try in order to save him? What makes the least f***ing sense? Yeah, let's do that.

Or were they thinking.... poison cloud through the door all along? Smart people will figure this sh*t out. Blow poison through the door to kill the maggot and you can head him off at the pass and keep him from putting on the sunlight maggot. Strategy makes perfect sense now looking back on it. How did I not think of that on my own? I mean duh.

[ThePlagued]

its not meant to be straightforward. all DS companions and NPCs die. the mortal ones anyway. if you want to save them, you have to withold information (the pyromancer). kill a merciless murderer (firelinks firekeeper). leave them locked up (big hat logan). or in solaires case, run to an area you're not suppose to be at yet and kill an insignificant thing.

[The Fountaineer 🖋]

Because it's funny.

[The Mask]

The Witch of Izalith represents life. It makes sense to join her daughters' covenant to save life.

Plus... it's a great story that teaches you that no lightbulb on top of your head is going to make you grossly incandescent, as the light coming from within.

[MaenaZ]

From a gaming perspective, it's probably meant to make it so you don't neccessarily save Solaire the first time (most people probably don't if they don't use guides or have a strange attraction to helpless spider ladies), then observe where he is and what could be the possible ways to stop the strange creature from controlling him the second time. We have to remember Lost Izalith is the most unfinished location in the game; they might've planned more to it and never finished it.

From an emotional perspective, Dark Souls isn't a game that encourages kindness. You 'save' NPCs, but you never truly save them. Sure, you can pull Rhea out of the Tomb of the Giants, but we all know what happens if a certain NPC is alive or if you get lured by the girl's deceptively low prices and buy ALL of her miracles.

Laurentius? This guy shared his pyromancy flame with you for free. Granted, you saved him, but still! Surely it can't be so bad to help him realize his dream? Same with Logan. How many times can you save Siegmeyer? All it does is drive him hollow.

The Fair Lady is one of the kindest people in the game as well; saving her servants and taking their pain upon herself. She, too, isn't really rewarded for the act, becoming unable to survive without being bound to humanity through firekeeping and then fed it. But *you* can make up for killing her sister and help ease her pain. You're rewarding another person's kind act and in turn, you actually get rewarded for the first time in the game for doing something like that. True, saving Solaire doesn't neccessarily 'save' him given what lies at the Kiln of the First Flame, but it may be better than demonic insanity.
And for the first time, the helpless and weak (Fair Lady) save the strong, active, and helpful (You summon Solaire up to FOUR TIMES until that point).

From a lore perspective? Inheriting of values and passing of the torch.
Solaire is the servant of the Firstborn of Gwyn, Gwyn's most militaristic child, one who primarily valued strength at arms, in a covenant bound by caramaderie, and of Gwyn himself.

A Chaos Servant serves the last surviving child of the Witch of Izalith, and likely the kindest and most gentle of them.

First of all, both Gwyn and Witch of Izalith sacrificed everything they could to reignite the First Flame in their own ways. Whatever Gwyn did he did fully consciously; Witch of Izalith didn't have the luck if indeed both her body and soul are now part of the Bed of Chaos, though exactly how much time passed between creating the Flame and her falling to it is a point of content.

Solaire's fall into insanity is something he can't prevent himself, an exploitation of his weakness, and something he likely doesn't do consciously; he just passed through tons of lava, part of Lost Izalith, and likely fought the Titanite Demon in one of the toughest battles of the game arguably, so all he wanted was to just rest for a moment, remove his helmet and ponder where his sun could be.

Your sacrifice of 30 humanities, a very valuable resource, is in turn fully conscious, in a spin on Gwyn's and Witch's fates.

And again we have a theme of kindness here : So far Solaire has been helping the player for arguably no gain of his own. And we can't gain much from the Fair Lady other than the pyromancies - and that one secret passage. We can help Solaire simply by helping fix the world around him while he's down there seeking his little dream.


I think the most important lore part of it however is that inheritance of values. Servants of children of Gwyn and Witch of Izalith will now, on their own, determine if relinking the First Flame again and again is the way to go. This is why the only way to save Solaire without artificial exploitation of game mechanics is if you spend at least part of the game as a Servant of Chaos; so that the inheritors of Gwyn and Witch of Izalith can be allies and friends once more.

[nomoreblues]

it's meant that you're supposed to be forced to kill him. Just one sad part of the story. Only if you really get into the game u r able to get that reward.

[76561198200638999]

Originally posted by MaenaZ:

So far Solaire has been helping the player for arguably no gain of his own.

Using that logic, Lautrec has helped the Chosen Undead twice without any gain of his own as well.

[MaenaZ]

Originally posted by Uncle Skull:

Originally posted by MaenaZ:

So far Solaire has been helping the player for arguably no gain of his own.

Using that logic, Lautrec has helped the Chosen Undead twice without any gain of his own as well.

Lautrec appears to consider Sunlight Medal useful.
Not only does he give us one for our trouble with helping him when he feels 'indebted', he also only gets summoned for fights where Solaire is also a summon and he gets a sunlight medal for participating in those.

The first time from a lore perspective there's a chance he rewards us with *the very same sunlight medal we allowed him to get for Solaire's participation*.

The second time he helps us of their own accord, but under what circumstances?

He helps us open a way into Blighttown, true.
He still gets a Sunlight Medal if Solaire is also summoned and survives.
The path he helps us open is the one *without* the Firekeeper Soul. This is the least convincing part, but if your and Lautrec's world continued to coexist together, he could snatch it first if he knew of it. More importantly, it is long, ensuring we'll be lost there for a while...
Most importantly he does it just before he kills Anastacia. So we're in Blighttown while he does it. Not only that, he may be hoping we now feel indebted to *him*. 'Sure, I killed her, but I never harmed *you*. Do not follow me.'.

That and, well, the souls. I doubt even Solaire would help people out if he didn't at least get the opportunity to grow stronger.

[Cybersteel]

Originally posted by MaenaZ:

From a gaming perspective, it's probably meant to make it so you don't neccessarily save Solaire the first time (most people probably don't if they don't use guides or have a strange attraction to helpless spider ladies), then observe where he is and what could be the possible ways to stop the strange creature from controlling him the second time. We have to remember Lost Izalith is the most unfinished location in the game; they might've planned more to it and never finished it.

From an emotional perspective, Dark Souls isn't a game that encourages kindness. You 'save' NPCs, but you never truly save them. Sure, you can pull Rhea out of the Tomb of the Giants, but we all know what happens if a certain NPC is alive or if you get lured by the girl's deceptively low prices and buy ALL of her miracles.

Laurentius? This guy shared his pyromancy flame with you for free. Granted, you saved him, but still! Surely it can't be so bad to help him realize his dream? Same with Logan. How many times can you save Siegmeyer? All it does is drive him hollow.

The Fair Lady is one of the kindest people in the game as well; saving her servants and taking their pain upon herself. She, too, isn't really rewarded for the act, becoming unable to survive without being bound to humanity through firekeeping and then fed it. But *you* can make up for killing her sister and help ease her pain. You're rewarding another person's kind act and in turn, you actually get rewarded for the first time in the game for doing something like that. True, saving Solaire doesn't neccessarily 'save' him given what lies at the Kiln of the First Flame, but it may be better than demonic insanity.
And for the first time, the helpless and weak (Fair Lady) save the strong, active, and helpful (You summon Solaire up to FOUR TIMES until that point).

From a lore perspective? Inheriting of values and passing of the torch.
Solaire is the servant of the Firstborn of Gwyn, Gwyn's most militaristic child, one who primarily valued strength at arms, in a covenant bound by caramaderie, and of Gwyn himself.

A Chaos Servant serves the last surviving child of the Witch of Izalith, and likely the kindest and most gentle of them.

First of all, both Gwyn and Witch of Izalith sacrificed everything they could to reignite the First Flame in their own ways. Whatever Gwyn did he did fully consciously; Witch of Izalith didn't have the luck if indeed both her body and soul are now part of the Bed of Chaos, though exactly how much time passed between creating the Flame and her falling to it is a point of content.

Solaire's fall into insanity is something he can't prevent himself, an exploitation of his weakness, and something he likely doesn't do consciously; he just passed through tons of lava, part of Lost Izalith, and likely fought the Titanite Demon in one of the toughest battles of the game arguably, so all he wanted was to just rest for a moment, remove his helmet and ponder where his sun could be.

Your sacrifice of 30 humanities, a very valuable resource, is in turn fully conscious, in a spin on Gwyn's and Witch's fates.

And again we have a theme of kindness here : So far Solaire has been helping the player for arguably no gain of his own. And we can't gain much from the Fair Lady other than the pyromancies - and that one secret passage. We can help Solaire simply by helping fix the world around him while he's down there seeking his little dream.


I think the most important lore part of it however is that inheritance of values. Servants of children of Gwyn and Witch of Izalith will now, on their own, determine if relinking the First Flame again and again is the way to go. This is why the only way to save Solaire without artificial exploitation of game mechanics is if you spend at least part of the game as a Servant of Chaos; so that the inheritors of Gwyn and Witch of Izalith can be allies and friends once more.

Or you could use poison mist.

[MaenaZ]

Yes, because Dark Souls is a perfect game and as such the creators perfectly predicted every single possibility including the Chosen Undead randomly clipping through the catacombs floor and dying. So many glorious intentional features to keep us on our toes always! Praise the Sun! \[T]/

[Vin The Crow]

Originally posted by MaenaZ:

From a gaming perspective, it's probably meant to make it so you don't neccessarily save Solaire the first time (most people probably don't if they don't use guides or have a strange attraction to helpless spider ladies), then observe where he is and what could be the possible ways to stop the strange creature from controlling him the second time. We have to remember Lost Izalith is the most unfinished location in the game; they might've planned more to it and never finished it.

From an emotional perspective, Dark Souls isn't a game that encourages kindness. You 'save' NPCs, but you never truly save them. Sure, you can pull Rhea out of the Tomb of the Giants, but we all know what happens if a certain NPC is alive or if you get lured by the girl's deceptively low prices and buy ALL of her miracles.

Laurentius? This guy shared his pyromancy flame with you for free. Granted, you saved him, but still! Surely it can't be so bad to help him realize his dream? Same with Logan. How many times can you save Siegmeyer? All it does is drive him hollow.

The Fair Lady is one of the kindest people in the game as well; saving her servants and taking their pain upon herself. She, too, isn't really rewarded for the act, becoming unable to survive without being bound to humanity through firekeeping and then fed it. But *you* can make up for killing her sister and help ease her pain. You're rewarding another person's kind act and in turn, you actually get rewarded for the first time in the game for doing something like that. True, saving Solaire doesn't neccessarily 'save' him given what lies at the Kiln of the First Flame, but it may be better than demonic insanity.
And for the first time, the helpless and weak (Fair Lady) save the strong, active, and helpful (You summon Solaire up to FOUR TIMES until that point).

From a lore perspective? Inheriting of values and passing of the torch.
Solaire is the servant of the Firstborn of Gwyn, Gwyn's most militaristic child, one who primarily valued strength at arms, in a covenant bound by caramaderie, and of Gwyn himself.

A Chaos Servant serves the last surviving child of the Witch of Izalith, and likely the kindest and most gentle of them.

First of all, both Gwyn and Witch of Izalith sacrificed everything they could to reignite the First Flame in their own ways. Whatever Gwyn did he did fully consciously; Witch of Izalith didn't have the luck if indeed both her body and soul are now part of the Bed of Chaos, though exactly how much time passed between creating the Flame and her falling to it is a point of content.

Solaire's fall into insanity is something he can't prevent himself, an exploitation of his weakness, and something he likely doesn't do consciously; he just passed through tons of lava, part of Lost Izalith, and likely fought the Titanite Demon in one of the toughest battles of the game arguably, so all he wanted was to just rest for a moment, remove his helmet and ponder where his sun could be.

Your sacrifice of 30 humanities, a very valuable resource, is in turn fully conscious, in a spin on Gwyn's and Witch's fates.

And again we have a theme of kindness here : So far Solaire has been helping the player for arguably no gain of his own. And we can't gain much from the Fair Lady other than the pyromancies - and that one secret passage. We can help Solaire simply by helping fix the world around him while he's down there seeking his little dream.


I think the most important lore part of it however is that inheritance of values. Servants of children of Gwyn and Witch of Izalith will now, on their own, determine if relinking the First Flame again and again is the way to go. This is why the only way to save Solaire without artificial exploitation of game mechanics is if you spend at least part of the game as a Servant of Chaos; so that the inheritors of Gwyn and Witch of Izalith can be allies and friends once more.

This is fantastic, dude. 10/10 answer, if yah ask me ^~^

[Kerg]

Yeah, good stuff, MaenaZ. I guess it's just initially hard to see the Chaos NPC's as "good," they are so nightmarish in appearance. But I guess if you think about it, the Fair Lady is just as benevolent and unselfish as Solaire. Never thought about it that way.

I always thought of them as wicked people who were being punished for their crimes of dabbling in demonic arts.

[Someone]

PRAISE THE SUN \[T]/

[MaenaZ]

There's a lot of theories on the Bed of Chaos and demons, including ones that paint them as more clasically 'demonic', but it can be argued there's no fully good or bad factions in Dark Souls. Sure, for us, statements like 'demons' and 'the dark' suggest which side is evil, but part of what the game does is trying to make us think outside the box.
On the other hand, it really cannot be argued that the Fair Lady specifically is a positive figure. She did willingly absorb the blightpus on behalf of the Chaos Witches' servants and about the worst thing that can be said about her is that she apparently does allow the egg-burdened to carry her eggs, although the description of her soul suggests her own eggs no longer hatch into anything (or the eggs actually require humanity to continue hatching, which is what her dialogue would suggest).

Even Quelana's quest to kill her family doesn't include the Fair Lady, as if she's the only one who doesn't have any 'making up' to do.

Though which theories you choose to believe about the Chaos Servants' and Chaos Witches' past is up to you.

[Someone]

Originally posted by MaenaZ:

There's a lot of theories on the Bed of Chaos and demons, including ones that paint them as more clasically 'demonic', but it can be argued there's no fully good or bad factions in Dark Souls. Sure, for us, statements like 'demons' and 'the dark' suggest which side is evil, but part of what the game does is trying to make us think outside the box.
On the other hand, it really cannot be argued that the Fair Lady specifically is a positive figure. She did willingly absorb the blightpus on behalf of the Chaos Witches' servants and about the worst thing that can be said about her is that she apparently does allow the egg-burdened to carry her eggs, although the description of her soul suggests her own eggs no longer hatch into anything (or the eggs actually require humanity to continue hatching, which is what her dialogue would suggest).

Even Quelana's quest to kill her family doesn't include the Fair Lady, as if she's the only one who doesn't have any 'making up' to do.

Though which theories you choose to believe about the Chaos Servants' and Chaos Witches' past is up to you.

I am pretty sure that the darkwraiths are a bad faction I mean they are insane humans who are thirsty for nothing else then humanity and power I mean have you even took a look at new londo or oolacile they were once normall people driven insane by this snake and now all they do is killing people

[MaenaZ]

Are they?
Or are they simply people who turned to extremes when trying to fight the gods themselves?

Remember Gwyn's desperation to hold onto the Age of Fire lead him to 'deny nature', and might've lead to the curse of undeath in the first place.
And while humanity is clearly dangerous in some instances, it is just as possible he was denying humanity their right to ascend in the age of Darkness.

And like I said, it's hard to say there's a faction that is entirely evil. Just read the Red Sign Soapstone description explicitly stating stuff abotu Darkwraiths.[darksouls.wikidot.com]. Because good and bad people happen on both sides, and we're not always fed enough information to be certain which is which.

Also note that none of the NPCs invading the players are part of the Darkwraiths. Kirk is a Chaos Servant, Maneater Mildred... who knows? Leeroy is a hero of the Way of White.
And Kaathe explicitly states the Darkwraiths and Four Kings failed him by going the way they did.