Order of the Flaming Rose or the Scoia'tel *SPOILERS*

[Luke]

Which one did you side with and why? Or did you remain neutral? In my playthrough I sided with the Order because as a Witcher, your job is to protect humans from monsters, be it literal or figurative. The Scoia'tel were terrorists, and while I was sympathetic towards them, extremely, I would not stand by them due to their acts against humanity, such as their kidnapping of the entirety of Murky Waters in Act IV and the attack against Vizima in Act V. Sure the Order's Grandmaster (Alvin) was actually leading Salamandra but if you go with the Order, Siegfried takes over and it becomes a force for good again. In the end, Witchers are made to save human lives from monsters, and that's what the Scoia'tel were.

[Nevermore]

Messaggio originale di ye:

Well as a witcher your job is to protect humans from monsters.

That is all, rest is up to you. You think Scoia'tael are monsters and terrorists? Fine by me.

[Serendipity]

Don't you think scoia'tel would have seen humans as terroists after their conquest of the elder races lands? or is the word terrorist only meant for those who are fighting for their rights.

First play through of this I went with the order and was sickened at the outcome, now I'm on my second playthrough and I swear I tried to stay neutral but after reading a lot of back story and listening to Morenn in the druids grove, she tells you what is happening even now in her homeland, well, tough choices.

I take the point about the food in Muky Waters, but, I still don't see the scoia'tel as the total aggressors, just people fighting for the right to live.

Gerralt does not and has not always stayed neutral as evidenced. if you side with yaevin in Gold Rush, when you tell triss and she says that it is what Gerralt would have done.

curiously when you first meet Zoltan in the outskirts he claims he is no sympathiser of the scoia'tel, but if you side with the order at the end of chapter four when you get back to vizima docks he spits at you.

[Nevermore]

Here is something to read, this just might help you to realise how people love you as a witcehr


'Let's talk, lola.
'I need this conversation. They say silence is golden. Maybe it is, although I'm not sure it's worth that much. It has its price certainly; you have to pay for it.
'It's easier for you. Yes it is, don't deny it. You're silent through choice; you've made it a sacrifice to your goddess. I don't believe in Melitele, don't believe in the existence of other gods either, but I respect your choice, your sacrifice. Your belief. Because your faith and
sacrifice, the price you're paying for your silence, will make you a better, a greater being. Or, at least, it could. But my faithlessness can do nothing. It's powerless.
'You ask what I believe in, in that case.
'I believe in the sword.
'As you can see, I carry two. Every witcher does. It's said, spitefully, the silver one is for monsters and the iron for humans. But that's wrong. As there are monsters which can be struck down only with a silver blade, so there are those for whom iron is lethal. And lola, not just any iron, it must come from a meteorite. What is a meteorite, you ask? It's a falling star. You must have seen them - short, luminous streaks in the night. You've probably made a wish on one. Perhaps it was one more reason for you to believe in the gods. For me, a meteorite is nothing more than a bit of metal, primed by the sun and its fall, metal to make swords.
'Yes, of course you can take my sword. Feel how light it— No! Don't touch the edge, you'll cut yourself. It's sharper than a razor. It has to be.
'I train in every spare moment. I don't dare lose my skill. I've come here - this furthest corner of the temple garden - to limber up, to rid my muscles of that hideous, loathsome numbness which
has come over me, this coldness flowing through me. And you found me here. Funny, for a few days I was trying to find you. I wanted—
'I need to talk, Iola. Let's sit down for a moment.
'You don't know me at all, do you?
'I'm called Geralt. Geralt of— No. Only Geralt. Geralt of nowhere. I'm a witcher.
'My home is Kaer Morhen, Witcher's Settlement. It's ... It was a fortress. Not much remains of it.
'Kaer Morhen . . . That's where the likes of
me were produced. It's not done anymore, no one
lives in Kaer Morhen now. No one but Vesemir. Who's Vesemir? My father. Why are you so
surprised? What's so strange a
bout it? Everyone's got a father, and mine is Vesemir. And so
what if he's not my real father? I didn't know
him, or my mother. I don't even know if they're
still alive, and I don't much care.
Yes, Kaer Morhen. I underwent the usual muta
tion there, through the Tr
ial of Grasses, and
then hormones, herbs, viral infections. And
then through them all again. And again, to the
bitter end. Apparently, I t
ook the changes unusually well;
I was only ill briefly. I was
considered to be an exceptiona
lly resilient brat . . . and was chosen for more complicated
experiments as a result. They we
re worse. Much worse. But, as you see, I survived. The only
one to live out of all those chosen for further tr
ials. My hair's been white ever since. Total loss
of pigmentation. A side-effect, as they say. A trifle.
'Then they taught me various things until the da
y when I left Kaer Morhen and took to the
road. I'd earned my medallion, the Sign of the
Wolf's School. I had two swords: silver and
iron, and my conviction, enthusiasm, incentive an
d . . . faith. Faith that I was needed in a
world full of monsters and beasts
, to protect the innocent. As I
left Kaer Morhen I dreamed of
meeting my first monster. I couldn't wait to
stand eye to eye with him. And the moment
arrived.
'My first monster, Iola, was bald and had excep
tionally rotten teeth. I came across him on the
highway where, with some fellow
monsters, deserters, he'd stopped a peasant's car
t and pulled out a little
girl, maybe thirteen
years old. His companions held her father while
the bald man tore off her dress, yelling it was
time for her to meet a real man. I rode up and said the time had come for him, too - I thought I
was very witty. The bald monster released the gi
rl and threw himself at me with an axe. He
was slow but tough. I hit him twice — not clean
cuts, but spectacular,
and only then did he
fall. His gang ran away when they saw what a witcher's sword could do to a man . . .
'Am I boring you, Iola?

[Nevermore]

'I need this. I really do need it.
'Where was I? My first noble deed. You see, th
ey'd told me again and again in Kaer Morhen
not to get involved in such incide
nts, not to play at being kni
ght errant or uphold the law. Not
to show off, but to work for m
oney. And I joined this fight like
an idiot, not fifty miles from
the mountains. And do you know why?
I wanted the girl, sobbing
with gratitude, to kiss her
saviour on the hands, and her father to thank me
on his knees. In reality her father fled with
his attackers, and the girl, drenched in th
e bald man's blood, threw up, became hysterical and
fainted in fear when I approached her. Since th
en, I've only very rarely
interfered in such
matters.
'I did my job. I quickly learnt how. I'd ride up to
village enclosures or
town pickets and wait.
If they spat, cursed and threw stones I rode
away. If someone came out to give me a
commission, I'd carry it out.
'I visited towns and fortresses. I looked for pr
oclamations nailed to posts
at the crossroads. I
looked for the words "Witcher urgently needed".
And then there'd be a sacred site, a dungeon,
necropolis or ruins, forest ravine or grotto
hidden in the mountains, full of bones and stinking
carcasses. Some creature which lived to kill, out
of hunger, for pleasure, or invoked by some
sick will. A manticore, wyvern, fogler, aesc
hna, ilyocoris, chimera, leshy, vampire, ghoul,
graveir, were-wolf, giant sc
orpion, striga, black annis, kikimora, vypper ... so many I've
killed. There'd be a
dance in the dark and a slash of the sword, and
fear and distaste in the eyes of my employer
afterwards.
'Mistakes? Of course I've made them. But I k
eep to my principles. No, not the code. Although
I have at times hidden behind a code. People li
ke that. Those who follow a code are often
respected and held in high esteem. But no one's
ever compiled a witcher's code. I invented
mine. Just like that. And keep to it. Always—
'Not always.
'There have been situations
where it seemed there wasn't any room for doubt. When I should
say to myself "What do I care? It's nothing to
do with me, I'm a witcher". When I should
listen to the voice of reason. To listen to my ins
tinct, even if it's fear, if not to what my
experience dictates.
'I should have listened to the voi
ce of reason that time . . .
'I didn't.
'I thought I was choosing the le
sser evil. I chose the lesser ev
il. Lesser evil! I'm Geralt!
Witcher . . . I'm the Butcher of Blaviken—
'Don't touch me! It might . . . You might see
. . . and I don't want you to. I don't want to know.
I know my fate whirls about me like water in
a weir. It's hard on my heels, following my
tracks, but I never look back.
A loop? Yes, that's what Nenneke sensed. What
tempted me, I wonder,
in Cintra? How could
I have taken such a risk so foolishly—?
'No, no, no. I never look back. I'll ne
ver return to Cintra
. I'll avoid it like th
e plague. I'll never
go back there.
'Heh, if my calculations are correct, that ch
ild would have been born in May, sometime
around the feast of Belleteyn. If that's true it's
an interesting coincide
nce. Because Yennefer
was also born on Belleteyn's . . .
'Enough of this, we should go. It's already dusk.
'Thank you for talking to me. Thank you, Iola.
'No, nothing's wrong. I'm fine.
'Quite fine.

The Last Wish. Chapter 4 The voice of reason

[Ragnarök]

Conquest does not equal terrorism. Conquest equals conquest. Humans cannot be faulted over the fact that they outbred the Elves and thus required more land to sustain themselves. That is simply their nature. The Squirrels use human shields, shoot up civilian establishments, attack caravans, rob banks, burn cities with their own people still inside to make a point. All of this is to the detriment of their own people. That's terrorism.

The Scoia'tael aren't fighting solely for their rights, they're fighting to eliminate the dhoine menace, which is literally no different from the Order. Their motto is "Drive them into the Sea!" Furthermore they're backed by a foreign power. This foreign power has a tendency to enact scorched earth on whatever they capture and can't hold. This is the pro-slavery Empire of Nilfgaard.

They are the worst possible choice because even while doing all of this, they still fail miserably in the end without Geralt's intervention. At least the Order are competent. If they took over Temeria they'd actually be capable of administering it, unlike the Squirrels who would be the equivilent of rolling out the welcome mat for Nilfgaard to invade.

Zoltan was understandably biased. Triss was wrong. Neutrality, if anything, is the most likely path Geralt would take based on what he had seen. He often said that the Scoia'tael were fighting for a lost cause but simultaneously he wouldn't take arms against them for it. Their cause wasn't any less lost by the time the events in the game took place.

[Nevermore]

That isn't the point. The point is it's not your war. Visima is not your city. Humans hate you as well as elves, you are not one of them. You are simple monster slayer for hire. You are playing a witcher. The only task you should do is your tasks, only persons you need to trust are you friends humas and non-humas.


Scoia'tael are a military oragnisation formed and financed by Nilfggard (humans) when the time was up Nilfs betraid them. The gave what they prommised Dol Blata beame elves country under one condition , fighting Scoia'tael had no rights to seek protection there

[Serendipity]

I bet that conquest looked very much like terrorism to the elder races.

[Nevermore]

Messaggio originale di susanmel:

I bet that conquest looked very much like terrorism to the elder races.

That is messed up as well. Elves start to unite with otehes only when humans become stronger, before that they were like humans, conquring, killing and beeeing rasist to elder races: dwarves, gnomes and halflings.

For the records elves came to Witchers's world 1500 years ago, humans only 500

[Ragnarök]

Messaggio originale di Nevermore:

That isn't the point. The point is it's not your war. Visima is not your city. Humans hate you as well as elves, you are not one of them. You are simple monster slayer for hire. You are playing a witcher. The only task you should do is your tasks, only persons you need to trust are you friends humas and non-humas.

That depends solely on your definition of a monster. Whether you acknowledge it or not, you're still fighting for someone by the end of the game. Namely Foltest. Even if you side with Yaevinn, Foltest still gives him the boot afterward because he knew there was zero chance of reconsiliation after what he did to the city. The Squirrels objectively made matters worse for their own people, which is why I find them to be the worst of the three options.

Messaggio originale di Nevermore:

Scoia'tael are a military oragnisation formed and financed by Nilfggard (humans) when the time was up Nilfs betraid them. The gave what they prommised Dol Blata beame elves country under one condition , fighting Scoia'tael had no rights to seek protection there

That condition was basically meaningless because it could/would never be enforced. Simply disarm the unit before entering Dol Blathana and re-arm it upon exiting. Moreover Nilfgaard knew they would continue to wreak havoc regardless, which would never cease to be in their benefit.

[Nevermore]

Messaggio originale di Ragnarök:

That condition was basically meaningless because it could/would never be enforced. Simply disarm the unit before entering Dol Blathana and re-arm it upon exiting. Moreover Nilfgaard knew they would continue to wreak havoc regardless, which would never cease to be in their benefit.

No they coudn't that was the condition.One simply doesn't mess with Nilfgaard. Dol Blata was under the Nilf's. Othervise Dol Blata as elves country could disappear.. Elves from Dol Blata towards with theire queen Francesca Findabair sacrificed Scoia'tael (elves). The only choose the Scoia'tael had after the end of the war is to go/return to Blue mountains to starve from hunger.

[Ragnarök]

The condition was meaningless because it was only created to appease the Northern Kingdoms in the peace deal. There's literally no reason why Nilfgaard wouldn't want the Scoia'tael continuing business as usual as long as they couldn't be traced back to Nilfgaard directly. The Scoia'tael creating unrest in the north would still benefit Nilfgaard indirectly. They were well aware of this.

Excluding the officers who would be on trial for war crimes, the rest had the choice to disarm at the end of the war. Thus they would cease to be fighting Scoia'tael. They chose to continue fighting because Dol Blathanna wasn't good enough for them. That was Francesca Findabair's betrayal, she sold them out for a pittance.

[Nevermore]

Messaggio originale di Ragnarök:

The condition was meaningless because it was only created to appease the Northern Kingdoms in the peace deal. There's literally no reason why Nilfgaard wouldn't want the Scoia'tael continuing business as usual as long as they couldn't be traced back to Nilfgaard directly. The Scoia'tael creating unrest in the north would still benefit Nilfgaard indirectly. They were well aware of this.
.

You are forgeting one thing. Would any Scoia'tael want to work for Nilfgaard after the "Cintra's agreement"? None would. Dol Blathana had only 2k population, any new face would be easily recognised, captured and sent to prison just in case.

[Ragnarök]

What other choice would they have? There are no other potential allies.

Nilfgaard would have no interest in policing the Scoia'tael, so it would be left to Aedirn. How exactly would they police that? It's not illegal to travel the roads armed. That's if they used roads in the first place. Once they get into Dol Blathanna are their own people going to sell them out? To what end? How can you tell the difference between a Squirrel and an Elf with a sword? I think you're overestimating the ability of ordered units to monitor guerilla forces.

The point is that they're working for a foreign power regardless of whether they want to or not. Nilfgaard benefits. That is the only excuse you'd ever need to banish them as a king. Their rebellion directly harms the state and its people and leaves it vulnerable to outside forces.

[Nevermore]

Look none of them wanted to go Dol Blathana cos of FF. None would would work fro Nilfs after Cintra. Thath is why they are desparate, left alone and have no choose but to fight for a piece of land under the sun.

Elves won't sell them to state but spies of NIlfs would. Those that are loyal to FF would as well to keep Dol Blathana outta trouble

[kb_zed]

First off, I will try to avoid spoilers by talking in general terms. However, I may slip up... so don't read if you want no spoilers at all.

I found it interesting playing through again, albiet ten years later.

Originally I played through and sympathized with the Scoiatel heavily due to the opression and racism they faced. However, playing again I found myself having differing opinions then I used too, maybe chalk it up to emotional maturity? >.<

Scoiatel:
There are members who are simply trying to make the world a better place such as Vivaldi and Zoltan. However, there are a large number of members whose goal is to bring about change through indiscriminant murder. These are racist fanatics beyond that of the Order. Human lives mean nothing to them. In several instances you find them murdering without mercy people who have nothing to do with their conflict. In two separate missions they killed humans that were helping them. They frequently use hostages and are perfectly willing to lock in defenceless civilians with ghouls to achieve their ends.

Yaevinn: (sp?)
Is a monster, wellspoken, but a monster. For example:
If you pay attention to Shani's (drunk) talks about the battle of Brenna, she witnessed Yaevinn lead his commandos to attack the medic tents where she worked. Her mentor, a Gnome, was killed by him. They had been treating humans and non-humans alike. Yaevinn did not like that. He stopped the attacks only when forced by members of HIS OWN Elven Commando Unit who believed he was going too far.

Order of the Flaming Rose:
They are largely shaped by the philosophy that humankind needs protection from all its foes. Originally the Order of the White Rose, their core values were to protect and serve the peoples of the land. However after witnessing a great deal of suffering at the hands of monsters, witches, and the Scoiatel. A new leader rose up by the name of Jacques and transfromed the order to that of the Flaming Rose. The new Order reforms included policy changes towards the treatment of non-humans, magic users, and monsters. As well as promoting the Eternal Fire faith. They are racists, but they operate within the law. However, all it takes is an accusation, and even an innocent non-human is sent to the gallows after an 'investigation'.

Siegfried:
By all examples believes in the greater good and in general seems to be a decent person. He believes by his own admission that the treatment of non-humans by the Order is deplorable, however he feels there is nothing to be done while the Scoiatel continue to wage war. The major exceptions from this benevolence towards non-humans is towards crimnals, magic users, and Scoiatel.

I found myself finding both sides equally distasteful.
The Scoiatel with unlawful actions, good ideals, and horrific acts.
The Order with lawful actions, poor ideals, and deploable acts.

And thus decided to remain neutral.

What decided it for me when choosing who to help at the Bank:
Siegfried congratulated me on saving the innocent in a previous mission.
Yaevinn was angry because I spared the innocent in a previous misson.

Anyway, thoughts?