Damien Wayne is the Arkham Knight

[Rossboss]

I am truely interested if you have any oposing ideas after this. Its a long one but 4 hours at a desk with nothing to do got me thinking



There are four qualifications that the Arkham Knight must have. He must have the means, the skills, motive and the relation to “Arkham”.

Arkham Knight must have the means to take on batman. He has to have money for that suit of his and his army and whatever else he has in store for Batman. We know that he is going to challenge batman on a physical level so he must have the strength, cunning, fighting ability and other skills to take him on. Furthermore, we know that the Arkham Knight is out for revenge so something must have happened that would give him the drive to become the Arkham knight. Lastly, the Arkham Knight must have reason to call himself the Arkham Knight. They are in Gotham now away from Arkham City and the Asylum so choosing to conceal his identity and wear the Arkham “A” would seem pretty random if he didn’t have a link to Arkham somehow.

Damien is by far the best fit in all of these.

His grandfather, Ra’s al Ghul, (who definitely is still alive) has limitless resources both financially and in terms of manpower. Living for many centuries as the head of the Leauge of Shadows has given him time to accumulate great wealth and power that he could easily give to his grandson, Damien.

From the comics we know that he was training to be Ra’s hier until he became Robin. With experience from the league and his father, Batman, he has become quite the physical force to be reckoned with. Even without his experience as Robin in the Arkhamverse, the time under his mother’s and grandfather's training would be plenty to challenge Batman.

Most importantly, Damien has the motive! Ra’s could have told Damien Batman killed his mother giving Damien plenty of fuel for revenge. No matter which way he spun it, the reality was that Batman did fail to keep her alive (and bring out her body after the clayface fight???) and that would be plenty for Damien to come after him.

Finally, the Damien has reason to call himself the Arkham Knight. Ra’s al Ghul was behind the entire concept of Arkham City. He manipulated Hugo Strange who manipulated Warden/Mayor Quincy Sharp into creating the City. Not only that but Ra’s died on top of the Arkham “A” on the gate. With Damien as his successor, why not call him the Arkham Knight to correct his failed campaign from the last game and to carry out his plans to destroy Gotham. Damien wearing an imitation batsuit has so much symbolism too ("father to son").

Now to discount some of the other theories. First the Joker…. absolutely not. Jason Todd while he has the skills and somewhat of a motive, he is already confirmed in the game as the Red Hood, Joker is dead so his most obvious motive is gone, he does not have the means, monetary or otherwise and he has no connection to Arkham. Hush, while he might have some of the skills and means, his grudge is against Bruce Wayne, not Batman and he has no connection to Arkham other then temporarily being in the City. Azrael could have the means, and the skill but he does not have the motive or the connection to Arkham. I have yet to hear any other theories really worth any mention besides the whole thing is a hallucination (which would be cool but very unlikely and very very very hard to pull off) and Penelope Young (which is cool only because of her deep connection to Arkham and the plot of Asylum).

So now that this criteria is met for Damien and not for other theories, there is plenty more evidence provided from the games that Damien is the Arkham Knight. First of all, to those of you who deny his existence, Talia recalls to Bruce “that night in Metropolis” where they definitely banged thus Damien more than likely does exist; why else make reference to it in the game? The fact that Ra’s was so aggressively looking for a successor in Arkham City would give plenty of reason for him to turn Damien into the Arkham Knight and give him the task to kill Batman to prove himself, much as he did with Hugo Strange. The only thing really working against Damien is that we have yet to see him in the comics as anything but a child. Many think he would be too small/young to take on Batman. However, judging by the age of Tim Drake, the current Robin in AC who is at least 18 more likely in his early 20s, Damien would be at least 14 and with training/supplements/Lazurus from Ra’s along with the Arkham Knight suit which could easily increase his strength, there isn’t much weight in calling him too young. Another point is Azrael’s prophecy, "You are the one who will save this day and in doing so events will occur that you cannot stop. From the ashes of Arkham, the fires will rage and Gotham will burn." This implies that the events in Arkham Knight are made possible by what Batman did in Arkham City. Other than the Joker dying enabling Batman’s enemies to finally work together, Talia’s death is the most significant event we see which would have given the motivation to Damien and Ra’s and would fit perfectly with the prophecy.

Other clues point to Damien as the Arkham Knight like the confirmed quotes we got from early press coverage and that can be read on the Arkham Knight’s character wiki page. He says “You're not going anywhere old man. This ends tonight." Calling Batman “old man” implies that the Arkham Knight is significantly younger. In many of the other quotes he sounds very angry and defiant much like a teenager.

Also, while the announcement trailer titled “Father to Son” was absolutely epic on its own having the voice of Thomas Wayne reading his will to his son, Bruce, that father and son theme would come full circle if Arkham Knight was Batman’s son, Damien, which would be absolutely epic-er. I mean its pretty ballsy telling us who it is in the very first mention of the game now over a year before its release.

To be honest I'm super surprised more of you dont already think Damien is the Arkham Knight. I assume most of it has to do with his assumed size and age. But I have been thinking about this for over a year now and this is honestly the only thing that makes sense.

That all being said.... I do hope they pull off an original character that works with the plot even better than Damien would as it would add so much to Rocksteady's legacy. If they don't however it WILL BE DAMIEN

[ShikenNuggets]

Interesting theory. This, of course, assumes he exists. I would agree he has the means and the skills, but your explanation of the motive seems a bit strange. Ra's doesn't really have a real reason to kill Batman right now. Also, why would Ra's be trying to appoint a successor if he already had a grandson?

It is entirely possible that Ra's is still dead. Unlikely, sure, but I wouldn't be suprised if we've seen the last of him (at least for a while).

'That night in Metropolis', from what I understand wasn't very long before the events of Arkham City (a few weeks, a month at most). The reason they would reference it is to help solidify to non-comic book fans that Talia and Bruce are in some sort of relationship.

Based on my understanding of the timeline of the Arkham Games, Bruce was Batman for 2 years before Origins, Origins takes place 7 years before Asylum, Asylum 18 months (1.5 years) before City, and City 1 year before Knight. So even if Damien was conceived the same night that Bruce became Batman (which is not at all what happened), then Damien can be an absolute maximum age of 13.

In the physical sense, the Arkham Knight is definitely not 13. 18-mid 20's, MAYBE 16. But not 13 or even 14. That is a grown man. Or a robot. Or it's the Martian Manhunter.

[Rossboss]

Originally posted by ShikenNuggets:

Interesting theory. This, of course, assumes he exists. I would agree he has the means and the skills, but your explanation of the motive seems a bit strange. Ra's doesn't really have a real reason to kill Batman right now. Also, why would Ra's be trying to appoint a successor if he already had a grandson?

It is entirely possible that Ra's is still dead. Unlikely, sure, but I wouldn't be suprised if we've seen the last of him (at least for a while).

'That night in Metropolis', from what I understand wasn't very long before the events of Arkham City (a few weeks, a month at most). The reason they would reference it is to help solidify to non-comic book fans that Talia and Bruce are in some sort of relationship.

Based on my understanding of the timeline of the Arkham Games, Bruce was Batman for 2 years before Origins, Origins takes place 7 years before Asylum, Asylum 18 months (1.5 years) before City, and City 1 year before Knight. So even if Damien was conceived the same night that Bruce became Batman (which is not at all what happened), then Damien can be an absolute maximum age of 13.

In the physical sense, the Arkham Knight is definitely not 13. 18-mid 20's, MAYBE 16. But not 13 or even 14. That is a grown man. Or a robot. Or it's the Martian Manhunter.

Well said, however once again there is no reason for him not to exist. I know Rocksteady has changed many things to make thier own Batman canon but if Ra's and Talia exist, there is no reason for Damien not too. They dont necessarily have to mention him I agree but still. Ra's is definitely alive as well. Again, they dont necessarily have to mention him again like you said but I'm still thinking thats thier route.

While I do agree that it seems like "that night in metropolis" seems recent, there is no definite interpretation. Also, it may not be the first they have 'met' each other either. I mean in the comics Damien is conceived because Talia drugs and rapes Bruce lol.

Ra's reason to kill Batman is because he realizes that he will never agree to become his successor and knows if he is not his ally, Batman is his greatest enemy, hense he tried to kill him on his fall down from wonder tower by attempting to stab Batman through himself. Now that he realizes Damien is his best hope, he gives him the same challenge he gave to Hugo Strange, killing the Batman and making that person the next Head of the Demon. As far as why he wanted Batman, well, he has always wanted Batman as his successor in the comics.

As for the timeline, I'm still unsure how reliable Origins is for canon. However assuming it is, we know that the Initiation DLC takes Bruce back to his training, which was several years long with Kirigi who in the comics did train the League of Assassins for Ra's. Also many of the ninjas look identical to Talia's guard from AC so there is a clear link between Bruce and talia years before he became Batman. Rocksteady could easily play with that timeline to make Damiens age work perfectly. There was also the 'artificially aged' clone of Damien that Talia used to kill him in the comics. Not sure exactly how that all worked but apparently its possible.

Also, even at age 13, in the DCU everyone is built like a greek god and with Bruce's and Talia's genetics Damien could very well be 6' and benching 300lbs+. I mean I was 14 when i hit 6'1" and while I couldnt bench nearly that much, the DCU peak human conditions definitely inflate strength a lot. Plus give him some lazurus derivative (Lazurus alone increases strenght) or some other supplements combined with all the training he would be going through and it would work out. At the very least it is no where near the most farfetched thing DC or Rocksteady has done (I mean common...Deathstroke 9 times out of 10 would destroy Batman).

[ShikenNuggets]

Originally posted by Rossboss:

As for the timeline, I'm still unsure how reliable Origins is for canon. However assuming it is, we know that the Initiation DLC takes Bruce back to his training, which was several years long with Kirigi who in the comics did train the League of Assassins for Ra's. Also many of the ninjas look identical to Talia's guard from AC so there is a clear link between Bruce and talia years before he became Batman. Rocksteady could easily play with that timeline to make Damiens age work perfectly. There was also the 'artificially aged' clone of Damien that Talia used to kill him in the comics. Not sure exactly how that all worked but apparently its possible.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2014/03/26/rocksteady-studios-comments-on-batman-arkham-origins.aspx

Arkham Origins is canon. As for the Initiation DLC, there was a connection to the League, but there wasn't necessarily a direct connection to Talia.

Nonetheless, I would be extremely disappointed if this is ended up being the case. It may be plausible, but I think it would feel extremely forced. I hope they're true to their words and it ends up being an original character.

[Rossboss]

Originally posted by ShikenNuggets:

Originally posted by Rossboss:

Nonetheless, I would be extremely disappointed if this is ended up being the case. It may be plausible, but I think it would feel extremely forced. I hope they're true to their words and it ends up being an original character.

I honestly do want the do pull off a 100% original character. The thing is I dont know how they are going to fulfill all of those criteria i mentioned without making him appear out of thin air. Like if the Arkham Knight is Joe Schmoe who was a worker in Arkham Asylum once upon a time, I'm going to be dissappointed. I still think Damien would make a really good story but after Rocksteady insisted that it was original (whatever that means) I really do want something of their own that works well with the plot and with the Arkham legacy.

[Stormspark]

There is no evidence that the Batman in this continuity ever had any children. Not saying they couldn't retcon something but it's unlikely.

[Rossboss]

Talia and Bruce having a relationship is all the evidence that is needed honestly. I mean why screw with the canon? They are brining in red hood which is an automatic reference to Death in the Family and Barbara Gordon is Oracle which means that The Killing Joke is accepted as canon. Honestly they stick very close to many of the comics even though they obviously take things in their own direction at a certain point. Talia and Batman had a realtionship and Tim Drake is currently Robin so that point of deviation that the Arkhamverse takes is a quite a time after Damien would be born. We may not see him in Arkham Knight but I bet Rocksteady would still confirm that he exists if not for anything other than why make him not exist.

[ShikenNuggets]

Originally posted by Rossboss:

Talia and Bruce having a relationship is all the evidence that is needed honestly. I mean why screw with the canon? They are brining in red hood which is an automatic reference to Death in the Family and Barbara Gordon is Oracle which means that The Killing Joke is accepted as canon. Honestly they stick very close to many of the comics even though they obviously take things in their own direction at a certain point. Talia and Batman had a realtionship and Tim Drake is currently Robin so that point of deviation that the Arkhamverse takes is a quite a time after Damien would be born. We may not see him in Arkham Knight but I bet Rocksteady would still confirm that he exists if not for anything other than why make him not exist.

If he's not in the game at all (which I wouldn't be suprised if he wasn't), then what possible reason would they have for confirming his existence? They're not making any more Batman games. If he doesn't appear in Arkham Knight, as far as we're concerned (unless definitive evidence is found of the contrary), he doesn't exist.

Also, they already did mess around with the continuity a bit. While it is referenced in Asylum, Knightfall obviously happened a lot differently in the Arkhamverse than it did in the mainstream comics universe. And Hush obviously didn't happen. And anything based around Hugo Strange (namely 'Batman and the Monster Men') or Solomon Grundy didn't happen. They've already taken several liberties with the continuity, so making another one is completely possible.

[Rossboss]

Originally posted by ShikenNuggets:

Originally posted by Rossboss:

Talia and Bruce having a relationship is all the evidence that is needed honestly. I mean why screw with the canon? They are brining in red hood which is an automatic reference to Death in the Family and Barbara Gordon is Oracle which means that The Killing Joke is accepted as canon. Honestly they stick very close to many of the comics even though they obviously take things in their own direction at a certain point. Talia and Batman had a realtionship and Tim Drake is currently Robin so that point of deviation that the Arkhamverse takes is a quite a time after Damien would be born. We may not see him in Arkham Knight but I bet Rocksteady would still confirm that he exists if not for anything other than why make him not exist.

If he's not in the game at all (which I wouldn't be suprised if he wasn't), then what possible reason would they have for confirming his existence? They're not making any more Batman games. If he doesn't appear in Arkham Knight, as far as we're concerned (unless definitive evidence is found of the contrary), he doesn't exist.

Also, they already did mess around with the continuity a bit. While it is referenced in Asylum, Knightfall obviously happened a lot differently in the Arkhamverse than it did in the mainstream comics universe. And Hush obviously didn't happen. And anything based around Hugo Strange (namely 'Batman and the Monster Men') or Solomon Grundy didn't happen. They've already taken several liberties with the continuity, so making another one is completely possible.

Yes you are correct that they have taken quite a few liberties with the canon to create their own story but all of those characters still exist! It gets a little fuzzy with Jean Paul Valley because he is not currently Azrael but the fact that the referenced Knightfall means we can assume at least some of that happened. This second Azrael, Michael Lane, becomes Azrael independent of the Knightfall arc anyway so theres nothing saying that Jean Paul Valley wasn't Azrael before him and just never met Batman.

A large portion of Rocksteady's success in the Arkham games is the attention to detail and plethera of Batman references in the games which not only adds to player enjoyment but expands the scope of the Arkhamverse. The easter eggs open up possiblities and 'what-ifs' and really add to the experience and life of the Batman you play as. What service does it do Rocksteady or Batman if Damien doesn't exist? Even if they don't untilize him in this game, the shear possibility of Damien existing increases interest and conversation (hense this thread) and therefore interest in the games. If the in game evidence wasnt enough to convince then what about simple marketing tactics by Rocksteady?