Origins vs. Knight

[nightblade628]

Having played the hell out of both, I remember the flak that Origins drew at release. "Too much like Arkham City. Not innovative enough. It doesn't run as well as it should. There's no Kevin Conroy or Mark Hamill!"

Having revisited Origins again tonight, and after playing up until the "death" of a certain main character in Arkham Knight this week, here's what I see. I realise many of you may disagree, but I felt this is worth saying since the "improvements" they made to Arkham Knight weren't as extensive as I had hoped, and I still feel that the game could use a lot of graphical engine work.

Graphics/Performance:
ORIGINS looks brilliant. It's crisp, clear, runs at over 100fps consistently (mostly 143fps on my i5-4670k/12GB RAM/GTX 980 except for loading screens) and that's with everything maxed. AA can be anything from FXAA to MSAAx2/4/8, to TXAA, which I personally hate. The graphics options are multiple, and the game looks amazing, all things considered.
KNIGHT, on the other hand, does have far superior graphics in terms of complexity - everything does look next-gen, but where it fails is its performance and overall sheen.

Even with everything maxed, the game looks very jagged, almost like someone's applied a bad form of FXAA over everything - there's no sharpness or rigidness to anything, and performance is all over the place. RARELY will it ever even approach 90fps (its limit which, considering it came after Origins' 144fps, is a step backwards). Moving around is stuttery and not nearly as fluid. In short, I'm disappointed at how badly the game performs and looks despite having technically better assets - the rendering is a let-down. After all the "fixing", the game regularly dips below 60fps by a large margin. It's sad.

Gameplay:
The gameplay in origins sticks mostly to the tried and trusted Arkham City formula, whereas Knight improves upon it immensely. Going back to Origins, I miss not being able to punch enemies on the ground and only being able to perform Ground Finishers (or a cape-stun). The Batmobile is fun, if unnecessary and a bit repetitive. (I can glide everywhere faster and shooting drones gets old, fast).
I like the XP system in Knight better, as it rewards you based on what you actually pulled off, rather than giving you only a percentage of a max value. I HATE that fighting random goons gives you no XP in Knight - attacking the thugs in the streets is 100% pointless now, whereas Origins allows you to bump up your XP if you're aiming to unlock a certain skill but don't have the points. I realise Knight focuses on completing tasks for XP instead, though, so I suppose it balances in the end. Plus, Knight has better skills I felt.

What I love is the fact that, in Origins, there was a lot more "Batmanning" to be done. We could visit the cave and see Alfred. We had Detective Mode investigations to perform at crime scenes, which were far fewer in Knight. Origins gave Batman a sense of identity unfolding: He was new, he had never encountered many of these criminals before, and the story unfolded in a brilliant way. Hell, he had assassins randomly coming out of the woodwork! Knight, to me, just felt a bit chaotic, with one crisis after another - like trying to put out a fire with two more springing up. Yes, it felt "urgent", but it didn't have the development or Origins, I personally felt. You might disagree, which is perfectly fine, but it just feels like Batman is trying to run a marathon, has 5 miles left, and is about to pass out from exhaustion. He isn't "Batman", he's "I'm outnumbered and everything is kicking my ass-Man"

Sound:
I still think Arkham City is the epitome of the series with regards to sound. The score was tense and did an amazing job at backing up your escapades. Origins wasn't as good - but it did have a decent Christmas theme to it, and was still okay in its own right.

But Knight? What the hell did they do? They completely dropped the ball on this one. The tense, thoughtful music of City? Gone. Replaced by... virtually nothing. Most of the time, I have to really listen to pick up on anything, if I didn't do that I would tell you that the game has no music in it whatsoever. That's how unambitious and quiet Knight's soundtrack is.

Knight does still win with regards to voice-overs; Origins VO was excellent, and I don't think any of the core characters could be replaced any better than they were in Origins. But nothing beats Conroy and Hamill; even John Noble excelled as Scarecrow, with his insidious "You're going to lose no matter what you do" attitude.

All I can say is, thank God none of the games used Christian Bale's Batman voice. I'm just waiting for someone to ask me what the difference between them and me is, just so I can tell them that I am, in fact, not wearing Hockey pads.

The Batsuit:
City's Batsuit felt a bit tired and boring; Knight's new Batsuit was excellent, and the DLC suits were also mostly great. Origins' Batsuit was also really good; for a v.1 or v.2 Batsuit, I thought it looked excellent. Although Knight's Batsuit did have finer details to it. It makes Arkham Asylum's Batsuit look archaic in comparison.

Overall:
I know we all dissed Origins, but having spent the past hour running around at 144fps with crystal-clear MSAA makes me reallllly miss that game. I just miss how damn well it runs, how good it looks, and in short, if Knight ran like that, it would categorically be a better game in almost every regard.

But to me, I just feel as if its performance lets it down drastically, its soundtrack is almost non-existent, and while there is a TON of stuff to do... There's just too much detracting from the enjoyment of the core game to make me actually enjoy the time I spend with it. And trust me, the core game, under all that, is phenomenal, apart from a few miscellaneous shortcomings.

If only they could do a "pre-sequel" like they did with Arkham City -> Arkham Origins, except have Arkham Knight -> Arkham Exigency.

What do you guys feel about Arkham Origins compared to Arkham Knight, now that we've got a year behind us on Knight and several years on Origins?

[ShikenNuggets]

I liked Origins, even at launch, but I still think it's the lowest point in the series (aside from Blackgate, but... we don't need to talk about that).

The main things I don't like about Origins are the bugs (even now, they're still not great) and the fact that it doesn't have the same attention to detail that the other games do. Also, due to the recycled content, it feels more like a standalone expansion for Arkham City than its own game.

It's a solid game, and it's definitely worth playing, but it isn't the same level of quality as the rest of the series.

[hk_prometheus]

The best part of Origins is the boss fights. The rest of it is subpar compared to the rest of the series. The melee combat was clunky, Grappling was broken and often didn't even work, the story was so nonsensical that it was hard to take the game seriously. A real Batman Origins story shouldn't have him taking on Bane, Deathstroke, Joker, Penguin, Shiva, Deadshot, Killer Croc, Firefly, and GCPD all in the same night. While the boss fights were fun and the only redeeming part of the game for me, the rest of the game fell short.

[ShikenNuggets]

Originally posted by Transporter_011:

A real Batman Origins story shouldn't have him taking on Bane, Deathstroke, Joker, Penguin, Shiva, Deadshot, Killer Croc, Firefly, and GCPD all in the same night.

It's not Batman origin story though, it's an introduction to the Joker/Batman dynamic, and it gives some background information on the main plotlines of the series (most notably TITAN and the creation of Arkham City).

[Ebon Wolf]

Origins has the second best story in the series and the best boss fights. It also has the real version of Bane. Despite not having the origina VAs, the performances are incredible. People rip on Origins far too much.

[ShikenNuggets]

Originally posted by Ebon Wolf:

Origins has the second best story in the series and the best boss fights.

I have to disagree with this. While the story is solid, I would still rank it below the rest of the series.

As for boss fights, I really don't think any of them are better gameplay-wise than the Arkham City boss fights (not to mention some of them recycle elements from City's boss fights).

And of course, let's not forget that Mr. Freeze in Arkham City is by far the best boss fight of the series.

[hk_prometheus]

Originally posted by ShikenNuggets:

Originally posted by Transporter_011:

A real Batman Origins story shouldn't have him taking on Bane, Deathstroke, Joker, Penguin, Shiva, Deadshot, Killer Croc, Firefly, and GCPD all in the same night.

It's not Batman origin story though, it's an introduction to the Joker/Batman dynamic, and it gives some background information on the main plotlines of the series (most notably TITAN and the creation of Arkham City).

It is an origin story as it relates to the Arkham series, though. Which is basically my point. Origins features a young Bruce Wayne, who has recently become the bat vigilante. The number of enemies he's tasked with taking down is a bit much, imo. Just having Bane or Joker would have been difficult enough for him to overcome, but when you throw in Deathstroke, Shiva and the others it really gets ridicilous.

[ShikenNuggets]

Originally posted by Transporter_011:

It is an origin story as it relates to the Arkham series, though. Which is basically my point. Origins features a young Bruce Wayne, who has recently become the bat vigilante. The number of enemies he's tasked with taking down is a bit much, imo. Just having Bane or Joker would have been difficult enough for him to overcome, but when you throw in Deathstroke, Shiva and the others it really gets ridicilous.

This is Batman we're talking about, and he's been Batman for two years. He's not quite a master yet, but he's still pretty damn good.

Ridiculous? Perhaps, but it's fitting considering who we're talking about.

[nightblade628]

I agree with a lot of what's been said; I do think, in terms of production quality, it was more of a side-step to Arkham City than a pre-sequel. I think if it was released after Arkham Asylum it would have been far more popular but because it "derives" so much from Arkham City, I do see why people write it off as an expansion pack sold as a full game. I've thankfully not encountered many bugs while playing through the game and I've played through it three times so far, but maybe I'm just lucky (or not observant).

I think the most succinct way of putting it is that it's Arkham City with a few small innovations, minus all of the "big budget AAA+" sheen that AC had. It just didn't feel like a premium title. It felt like a damn good B-movie, but a derivative B-movie nonetheless, kinda like New Vegas was to Fallout, except without all the hidden quality that New Vegas eventually had once polished.

Still, it's nice to see differing opinions without it turning into a ♥♥♥♥ slinging match for once.

[Jac]

I've skipped reading a lot of the posts here for fear of spoilers. I've played all the Arkham titles except Origins but intend to play through the game as we come into winter. I always avoided Origins becaue it wasn't a Rocksteady title but after going through City again I want some more Arkham action and Origins looks decent. I like the fact that the world is Arkham City before it was turned into a prison.

[Frag Maniac]

Originally posted by nightblade628:

...if Knight ran like that, it would categorically be a better game in almost every regard.

I see a lot of mixed signals in this analogy. You started out praising Origins for far more than just performance, but in the end, that's pretty much all you give it credit for. It's also baffling you so easily rate Knight's gameplay as superior, when you only mention ground melee attacks.

Granted, you briefly touched on Knight's repetitive Batmobile usage, but said nothing about it having no melee boss fights, something that Origins did better than any game in the franchise. Also, Origins easily has some of the best if not THE best DLC in the franchise in Cold, Cold Heart.

[FreeToaster]

Originally posted by Frag Maniac:

Originally posted by nightblade628:

...if Knight ran like that, it would categorically be a better game in almost every regard.

I see a lot of mixed signals in this analogy. You started out praising Origins for far more than just performance, but in the end, that's pretty much all you give it credit for. It's also baffling you so easily rate Knight's gameplay as superior, when you only mention ground melee attacks.

Granted, you briefly touched on Knight's repetitive Batmobile usage, but said nothing about it having no melee boss fights, something that Origins did better than any game in the franchise. Also, Origins easily has some of the best if not THE best DLC in the franchise in Cold, Cold Heart.

The game has melee boss fights though. diregarding the quality or even quantity of those fights they still do exist.

[Frag Maniac]

Originally posted by FreeToaster:

The game has melee boss fights though. diregarding the quality or even quantity of those fights they still do exist.

You claim that quite often, yet never once have given so much as ONE example.

[ShikenNuggets]

Originally posted by Frag Maniac:

Originally posted by FreeToaster:

The game has melee boss fights though. diregarding the quality or even quantity of those fights they still do exist.

You claim that quite often, yet never once have given so much as ONE example.

Riddler, Albert King and Killer Croc (which is just a reskin of the Albert King fight, but still worth mentioning). There's 3.

[FreeToaster]

Originally posted by Frag Maniac:

Originally posted by FreeToaster:

The game has melee boss fights though. diregarding the quality or even quantity of those fights they still do exist.

You claim that quite often, yet never once have given so much as ONE example.

Do I have to? I mean you've played the game right? Two face is a boss fight. piggy is a boss fight, riddler is a boss fight, albert king is a boss fight. Thats just off the top of my head, I'm sure youll argue that they arent or somehow don't count considering you do keep claiming there are no melee fights, doesnt change the fact that they are.

[Jac]

The game is on sale, just got it for a couple of pounds.