Attributes and Character creation

[HonorableBoor]

This game is based on the D20 system and if you want to learn more about how it works check out my guide in the basic gameplay section or find a more complete guide for specifics.

Here's where I give you unwanted advice on character builds that you don't agree with.


1. You are not playing Neverwinter Nights, which is also a D20 game. You are a Jedi or Sith. If your tank build is wearing force restrictive armor then you are almost certainly missing out on a ton of potential damage and other goodies that the force can give you. Heavy Armor builds should be specifically tailored to Kotor and are not recommended for first time play throughs, as it really restricts and lessens your character's potential if not done right. Using armor early in the game and armor that says "does not restrict the use of force powers" is good to go. Just make sure the max dexterity on the armor isn't hurting your characters abilities. It is possible to put on armor that drops your defense to less than it would be if you had no armor bonus.

2. Build for your class. Don't go for a Consular and give him high combat attributes and combat feats. Max out his force attributes (wisdom and charisma), it will pay dividends mid/late game. The same goes for Gaurdians. Your Guardian should not be trying to rely on stasis feild, so keep the wisdom and charisma low. If not, it will be at the expense of massive damage potential late game and you'll have mediocre results from those force skills anyway. Play to the strengths of the class. Sentinal is the "all-around" class and is very good for someone that wants a versitile character to get the most content out of one play through. That being said, I have made many Guardians and Consulars that would smoke the best Sentinal I've ever made. They just don't have the oompf for combat that a strong build of the other two classes can have, too middle of the road. You can try to make up for this lack with stims and medpacks, but you never really will. You can definitely have a lot of fun as a Sentinal and make some really good builds, you get a great roleplay experience and will still be powerful enough to do the deed. I recommend Sentinals for first play throughs.

3. ALWAYS put at least 15 points into Constitution at character creation. You can do 16, but it's less costly and better to start with 15. Then when you get attribute points to spend during level up, which happens every four levels, spend them all on constitution until it's at 18. With a constitution of 18 you can use the best implants in the game and you get +4 vitality points per character level. The implants and extra vitality are worth it, hands down. The vitality bonus from constitution is applied to all your character levels. So if your constitution modifier goes up +1 at level ten you will now have ten extra vitality points, and will continue to gain that bonus with each new level. So by level twenty you will have 80 extra vitality points and will have been able to use D-class implants since level 12 (sooner if you use your-name armband), which you should get to shortly after them becoming available. An extra +2 or +3 to strength or dexterity is only going to be useful until Telos Station, after that you'll see diminishing returns since you miss out on a powerful gear slot and having to make up for not being able to soak as much damage.

4. I suggest you start with 2 to 4 attributes with odd numbers at character creation. This lessens your abilities early game, but allows you to max out your modifiers later on.

Here's an example of a decent Sentinal character creation. (Note: Attribute bonuses from quests and NPC's are not discussed. Players familiar with the game will be able to plan accordingly based on this build, and those not familiar need to figure that out on their own. It's an integral part of the roleplay and shouldn't be spoiled.)

Note: This build is designed to give you the most experience and playable content possible in the game. It opens the most influence and experience options that it is possible to unlock in one play-through, assuming you make the right in game choices. It also gives you lots of options for fleshing out the details of your character, which is nice but not the point. It is not a combat bulid, it is a content build. That being said, I have not had trouble with any enemy or group of enemies in the game with this build. The game simply isn't quite as easy as it usually is. If you don't like certain aspects, feel free to change them.***If you know for a fact that I am wrong and there is a way to gain more experience without cheating, please let me know and site suffcient evidence. I will change my post accordingly. Your skills have the biggest effect on unlocking content, but the attributes I have chosen do have a lesser effect on how much content you have available.***

Here it is at character creation.

Strength - 10 +0
Dexterity - 13 +1
Constitution - 15 +2
Intelligence - 14 +2
Wisdom - 13 +1
Charisma - 13 +1

Make Repair a class skill by buying the feat and save up the skill points you would be putting into it until you buy the feat. I also like to do the same thing with demolition first so that I can soak up all the extra experience from retreiving mines on Paragus. I know, two feats seem like a lot to spend on skills. If you build your character to use only one combat action feat (critical strike, rapid shot, flurry, ect), then you can focus on being very good at that particular attack which will maximize damage potential. Save the feats you wanted to spend on doing all the attacks for your weapon type and spend them on cooler stuff like class skills (max game content) and permanent character buffs. Skills to focus on are: demolitions (at least at first), computer use, security, repair, and persuasion. I don't like the stealth skill since it is only good for first shots and sneaking past experience points, which is great if you want to see how low of a level your character can be at the end game. Awareness has limited use, but I suggest you spend a little on it as mines are just buried experience points that can blow up if you don't see them in time.

At level 12 it looks like this.

Strength - 10 +0
Dexterity - 13 +1
Constitution - 18 +4
Intelligence - 14 +2
Wisdom - 13 +1
Charisma - 13 +1

Most of the attribute bonuses you get from gear at this level are going to be odd numbers, it makes sense for yours to be odd as well since only even numbers cause changes in attribute modifiers. At this point you will have some D-class implants available. You should be on Telos Station when you pick up this level so your implant options are probably going to be +3 Dexterity or six free feats. Those are just typical starting implants, and it gets better from there. Your constitution score gives you 48 extra vitality points at level 12. You have already spent a feat to make Repair a class skill. Do this early, save skill points until you buy the feat, and max out repair. Sentinals are all about getting the most story and roleplay, so you'll need this skill. Don't waste a feat on Melee finesse, just use blasters until you get your lightsaber (make sure you get lightsaber finesse before this happens). I do not recommend playing a ranged only character on first play-through, as it will restrict your characters potential. [[[ If you want to you can rely on your-name armband to supply +1 constitution for the rest of the game. That means that at this level you will have an extra attribute point to spend, but can never take off your-name armband unless you buy the last constitution point later on or aquire it another way. I prefer to give this to another character and keep both slots open for those beautiful damage soak sheilds on my arms, one for melee and one for blasters, or one of the other (better) armbands in the game. ]]]

At level 24 it looks like this.

Strength - 10 +0
Dexterity - 14 +2
Contitution - 18 +4
Intelligence - 14 +2
Wisdom - 14 +2
Charisma - 14 +2

This is very middle of the road, but that's kind of what Sentinals are all about. With this build you can choose and be effective with any of the six prestige classes and you have access to all the influence and side quest bonuses. You will also level-up more quickly and achieve a higher level if you follow my advice about the skills and use them whenever possible. Make every repair and spike every computer possible and you'll almost always get a lot more experience than if you hadn't. Always bring Kriea when available to utilize her experience bonus. At this point all your gear, feats, and force abilities have pretty much negated the whopping +3 to strength you wanted early in the game that would have cost you a ton of extra experience and options that you now have. Maxing out your combat attributes is only going to help on Peragus. By the time you hit the actual planet of Telos, any benefit from higher strength or dexterity will be negated by all the experience points you missed, created gear, and the D-class implants that are now available. You will also have to make up for not being able to soak as much damage, which will limit your options in combat and take up combat rounds. Haters gonna hate, but this isn't NWN and the feats, force powers, and gear available don't lend to building solid 'rangers', 'tanks', or 'paladins' in the traditional sense. The math just doesn't work out. This is a galaxy far far away, so build characters accordingly.

[fenke]

Don't start with 15 points in constition, and 13 in Dexterity, Wisdom and Charisma and increase these with level-up points to 14. If you had put 14 points in Con you 'd have two points to add to, say, Dexterity and Wisdom, gaining you 1 point overall later in leveling. So I would say, never put 15 points into constirution at creation.

Secondly, you don't need constitution, at all. Putting 10 points in it at creation is sufficient. There is only one implant that might be worth the investment, but that is a random drop. With this exception, none of the implants return on the invested attribute points. The only reason to use implants is because they make your build more flexible by allowing you to swap attribute points around.

Thirdly, a Sentinel has enough skill points to not need 16 Intelligence.

Kreia can be a pain to have around constantly, especially if you are LS and want to gain influence with her, or rather not loose too much. The XP bonus is neat, but there's plenty of that to be had throughout the game. Until Telos you don't really have a choice of when to take her in the party.

Strength adds to damage, even when using dexterity with lightsabre finesse for attack, and this bonus is multiplied by 1.5 when wielding a doublebladed version.

[HonorableBoor]

Dexterity will never give you enough defense to make up for the damage soak of constitution, unless you specialize in it and wisdom to the exclusion of almost everything else. The +2 or +3 to dexterity lost wont matter with cannon fodder, as they wont hit you anyway. It wont matter with bosses because they will hit you anyway, regardless of the spectacular +3 that you gained at the expense of a minimum of 96 extra vitality points and a gear slot. The same goes with the damage from strength, +3 per attack on attacks that are easily going to end up at over 50 points of damage. What a bonus. I am not suggesting that dexterity is not important, if you follow my build you have 14 in dexterity plus whatever you get from gear and your-name crystal. I am suggesting that 2 or 3 dexterity points are not worth the bonus from 2 or 3 constitution modifier and D-class implants, because they are not.

Putting 15 into constitution at character creation does cost you an extra attribute point. It also gives you 18 constitution at level 12 and allows you then to move on and level up the other attributes at your discretion. This gives you all even numbered attributes at level 24, which is likely to be the last level you gain an attribute unless you experience farm in a specific way or cheat. (Let's not forget that this character build will get you the most bonuses from influence events with the most characters. Your final stats are not going to look like the ones displayed. This is a build, not a full character walk-through.)

I suggested a 14 in the intelligence attribute, which is exactly what you need with the Sentinal to get the highest level and all the side content in the game. 100% exactly, and only if you buy the skill feats the way I desribed. Since Sentinals are terrible combat characters and terrible force users, the only reason to use them is to unlock the most content and have the most options. Unless using them diferently works well with the character you have in mind to roleplay, and you don't mind them being a little weaker. In which case, go nuts, go make your character and stop reading guides.

If you don't like Kreia, don't bring her. I wasn't desrcibing the way to play that you personally will like the best. I didn't research your profile to make assumptions about what a pain having Kreia around might be. I was describing the way to make the best and most versatile sentinal character for first time players, or 2nd or 3rd time players that don't know the D20 system and missed out on content. If you want the highest level possible without cheating you need Kreia, end of story.

Thanks for the feedback.

[fenke]

Originally posted by HonorableBoor:

Dexterity will never give you enough defense to make up for the damage soak of constitution, unless you specialize in it and wisdom to the exclusion of almost everything else. The +2 or +3 to dexterity lost wont matter with cannon fodder, as they wont hit you anyway. It wont matter with bosses because they will hit you anyway, regardless of the spectacular +3 that you gained at the expense of a minimum of 96 extra vitality points and a gear slot. The same goes with the damage from strength, +3 per attack on attacks that are easily going to end up at over 50 points of damage. What a bonus. I am not suggesting that dexterity is not important, if you follow my build you have 14 in dexterity plus whatever you get from gear and your-name crystal. I am suggesting that 2 or 3 dexterity points are not worth the bonus from 2 or 3 constitution modifier and D-class implants, because they are not.

Constitution doesn't prevent damage, like dexterity does, nor does it protect, it increases the buffer against burst attacks but eventually the lost health has to be replenished one way or another. You don't face high enough burst in this game, mobs are irrelevant and for bos fights your Exile can rely on other defences plus, when needed, the stimulants. Therefore, constitution is only of interest for implants and given the complete lack of good implants, it's not really a good stat.

And you are not loosing 2 or 3 points dexterity, you are loosing 8 points (in my math books 18 - 10 = 8), that is a 20% increase of your opponents misses - provided he is anywhere near your level. It is also 20% less chance that his critical threats become actual critical hits (allthough not for sentinels) plus, as bonus, an 20% increase on the chance that your critical threats actually becom critical hits.

Or +8 points in Strength, becomes +6 damage on a doublebladed lightsabre. I usually don't really invest much in strength myself though.

Putting 15 into constitution at character creation does cost you an extra attribute point. It also gives you 18 constitution at level 12 and allows you then to move on and level up the other attributes at your discretion.

That is a rather absurd argument, you waste a point so that after level 12 you can conveniently put them anywhere you want, rather then wait until 16 and have an additional point in any attribute. You need to level up 4 more levels to compensate for that lost point. I mean, most of the points in your guide can be reasoned for in some way, but not this.

This gives you all even numbered attributes at level 24,

You're sacrificing an attribute point to get all even numbers at level 24???And at level 28?
DS/LS and prestige bonusses are +3. Loot is randomized, you don't get a say in what equipment you will have, or care to wear because not all build want the same attributes. Not only is loot randomized, the bonus from powers and stimulants is as well. You can not exactly predict with which stats you'll enter a fight with and except for the looks on the character sheet it serves no real purpose.

I suggested a 14 in the intelligence attribute, which is exactly what you need with the Sentinal to get the highest level and all the side content in the game. 100% exactly, and only if you buy the skill feats the way I desribed.

That's ok, I have no quarrel with 14 intel to get the skillpoints for all the content. I tend to pick 14 Intel at start.
Whatever you do, keep in mind you get 4x the skill points at creation so whatever INT you want, putting it in at creation is most lucrative in terms of skill points gained.

Since Sentinals are terrible combat characters and terrible force users, the only reason to use them is to unlock the most content and have the most options.

They're the best base class for the Exile, they get lots of skill points for, yes, all the content and the attack progression of the warrior (+1 per level). Oh, and immunity to crits is quite a strong feat for a combat char. There is really little reason to not pich a Sentinel.

Unless using them diferently works well with the character you have in mind to roleplay, and you don't mind them being a little weaker. In which case, go nuts, go make your character and stop reading guides.

Loosing the atribute point for no reason makes them weaker for no reason. Even if you insist on getting 18 CON and gamble on the lucky drop for the uber-implant, don't start with 15 points.

... I was describing the way to make the best and most versatile sentinal character for first time players, or 2nd or 3rd time players that don't know the D20 system and missed out on content.

It's a very specific constitution/implant build, without leaving any other option open. And this build does not make a versatile sentinel, nor the best.

If you want the highest level possible without cheating you need Kreia, end of story.

You'll get there without dragging her into every conversation and have her define your character and RP, or loose influence with her and thus content. She's ok to have in the field though, a decent enough consular.

[HonorableBoor]

This game is based on the D20 system. What you are describing does not even come close to the effects that attributes have in this game. Constitution modifiers directly affect the extra vitality you gain per level and is the primary modifier for Fortitude saves. If by "burst attack" you mean mines and hand-grenades, that is protected against with reflex saving throws which use the dexterity modifier not constitution. The difference between dexterity 14 and dexterity 18 is exactly 2 modifier points. If you lose 2 modifier points and it accounts for 20% of your defense, that means your defense was 10 to start. Since your character defense has a base number of 10, I don't think that's going to happen. In your math book 18 - 10 = 8. Good for you, that doesn't translate to the effects in this game which runs off the D20 system and not your math book. The difference between Dex of 10 and Dex of 18 is a +4 modifier, the modifier is the only thing that matters. The reason you think a +2 dexteritity modifier is worth more than some extra vitality, and a gear slot, is that you over value the dexterity modifier and don't know what it actually does.

For critical hits dexterity does nothing more than it usually does. Nothing, at any time or with any feat. Intelligence increases the chances to stun with Sniper Shot and Strength does the same for Critical Strike, so maybe that's what you're thinking about. Most likely your are thinking that it works the way dexterity does in some other game. Dexterity gives you a modifier which is added to your defence along with several other modifiers. It can increase your base attack with dexterity based weapons. It does not directly effect your chance to avoid or land critical hits in any way what so ever (with the obvious and already mentioned effect it has on your defense [which acts as the DC for enemy attack rolls], assuming you are getting your full dexterity modifier to defense.).

Once again, the 20% you are talking about is NOT the way this game works. I suggest 14 Dex which is +2 to defense (and ranged, finesse, relfex saves). If you put no points into constitution at character creation and put them all (leaving constitution at 8 or -1 modifier) into dex, it will give you a dex of 17. You just bought +1 to dex at the expense of all constitution bonuses. This is not and will never be 20% of your defense or chance to hit. If you put all my suggested constitution points into dex up to level 12 (where I said to stop) your dex will be 20. 20 dex is a +5 modifier which is the only thing that matters. I suggested you spend up to +2 dex modifier of your global points into dex. Ignoring my advice completely and using all those consitution points in dex instead, you just bought yourself +3 to defense, reflex saves, and chance to hit with dex based attacks. That +3 will not be deciding factor for most enemies unless you are making a defense specific character and max out dex and wis. +3 doesn't matter with cannon fodder as they will miss anyway, and +3 won't stop a boss from hitting you (the only way to make that happen is for that to be one of the biggest and coolest effects you go for with your whole character, which is a lot of fun and hard to do [to make the bosses miss consistantly you will need your defense to be extremely high, well over the 30 or so you can usually expect by end-game]). +3 at the expense of minimum 96 end-game vitality points and a gear slot you can use to get a +2 dex modifier bonus if you want. You bought nothing and it cost dearly (8 constitution basically means your character is sick, so he loses 1 vitality per level), congratulations.

Not sure what your getting at with the +6 vs +8 strength thing. Your strength modifier effects the following: a direct 1 to 1 correlation between strength modifier to melee/unarmed damage except when using double-bladed weapons when it goes up to 1.5:1 (So, 18 Stength = +4 damage per hit or +6 for Db), it gives you a higher chance to stun when using Critical Strike ( 18 strength = +4 chance to stun [only when using critical strike], and it adds to your base attack modifier when unarmed or using melee [except when finesse supplants it] (18 strength = +4 modifier on melee attack). Strength effects absolutely nothing else in this game.

You're sacrificing an attribute point to get all even numbers at level 24???And at level 28? DS/LS and prestige bonusses are +3. Loot is randomized, you don't get a say in what equipment you will have, or care to wear because not all build want the same attributes. Not only is loot randomized, the bonus from powers and stimulants is as well. You can not exactly predict with which stats you'll enter a fight with and except for the looks on the character sheet it serves no real purpose

The above paragraph is gibberish. This is a build based on Global Attribute gain for Sentinal class, which is not a prestige class so +3 for prestige does not apply (I assume you mean attribute gain every 3 levels instead of 4, which is not "+3 prestige bonuses"). If you want to go off build (which you should, it's only a build) and get a prestige class then please feel free to do so. I don't know what that you're saying about DS vs LS because that has no bearing what-so-ever on anything mentioned in my build and does not affect global attribute gain in anyway. Yes, loot is randomised. It is also not directly discussed in my build at all. These are unmodified base stats and gear/NPC bonuses/feat/force affects are not displayed.

Absolutely none of the stims or force powers create a random attribute bonus of any kind. The only random aspect comes from what type of dice you get to roll for extra damage and does not apply to most stims or force powers. They give very specific bonuses and the bonuses are listed in the description. Too complicated for you to understand does not equal random. Random bonuses from powers and stims, that's hilarious.

The point of this build is to give unfamiliar players a chance to explore the game content, not predict your combat choices. It is supposed to help players avoid wasting points on attributes that seem super important on the surface and during early game, but don't actually help that much later on. That being said, I can exactly predict which stats I'll enter a fight with, with 100% accruraccy because I know how the core mechanics of this game work. I know ALL the math this game uses. It is not difficult and it is not a mystery, it is the D20 system. I can't predict 100% exactly what my level 20 character will enter combat when I am only level 10, because I cannot account for random gear drops (I can account for absolutely everything else, and luckily I don't rely on random gear to make good characters). I can and do know what all the current effects the math for a characters current gear/stats/feats/force powers will have on my character or your character. Show me your current character sheet, and I will tell you exactly how each aspect effects combat with no guess work what-so-ever.

I can't predict what YOU will enter the fight with if you use this build because this is not a character walk-through and I left a ton of room for personalization. The only thing I can't predict are your decisions (and the D20 rolls you will get or other random aspects, because they are specifically random). I can use basic statistics to account for some of the random element, because I know what system is used to generate the random numbers this game uses. (Hint: They are all based on the roll of a die or some dice.)

Thanks for the vote of support on the skills and letting me know that you can point out the obvious x4 at character creation. Very helpful.

They're the best base class for the Exile, they get lots of skill points for, yes, all the content and the attack progression of the warrior (+1 per level). Oh, and immunity to crits is quite a strong feat for a combat char. There is really little reason to not pich a Sentinel.

I'm glad you like Sentinals. They do not get anywhere near the combat bonuses as Gaurdians. The level increases for base attack alone make a huge difference in how well you do in combat, and those bonuses are certainly not the same for Sentinals as they are for Gaurdians. The reason you think it is the same is that the game makes over-powered characters so that mediocre builds will still be fun. Immunity to critical hits is included in a bunch of different gear and a feat is not needed to get that effect. It is also not that powerful because most enemies will not use critical strike/sniper shot very often. It is nice to have, but not having it wont make or break you (unless your character really sucks, even moderate or mediocre builds will have zero problem going without immunity to critical hits). If you build a sentinal that does as well in combat as your guardian build, then you don't know how to max out a gaurdian and have been limping along with characters that are good enough and not the best they can be. Which is fine, as long as you have fun. The game is over-powered so that you can make your mediocre characters and still have good game play.

There is absolutely no reason not to pick a Sentinal, which is why I suggested it for 1st play through. It will just never be as good at combat as the other two classes. It's not an opinion or a debate, it's mathematically assured by the core mechanics of the game. My builds are not for "good characters", they are for the best I can make a character for one specific purpose. In this case the purpose is to unlock content while leaving total freedom for play style.

[qoute]t's a very specific constitution/implant build, without leaving any other option open. And this build does not make a versatile sentinel, nor the best.

D-class implants are the most powerful in the game, there are several worth having and many that can completely restore the bonus you think you lost to other attributes (depending on which other attribute you wanted). I'm glad you have a favorite implant, but that has no bearing on how the math for this game works.

You will absolutely get there without bringing Kreia into every conversation. You just wont be as high a level when you get there, it isn't possible without cheating (mod or bug, it's still cheating). If you don't like her don't bring her. Once again, this describes the way to become the most powerful. It has no bearing on your opinion of what is best. It is based on the raw math incorporated in the D20 system. Just because you once built a character that works well and don't usually have problems with the game doesn't mean your character is the best it could have been. That is perfectly fine. Play the way that is most fun for you to play. Just don't think that your ability to beat a game designed to be easily beaten means you understand how that game works, or that your opinion on what's "most fun" or a "pain" directly relates to a good build.

Thanks for all the opinions and the chance to set straight some of your confusion on how this game works. For more detailed explanations of D20 (so you can predict what your stats will be before you enter combat) I suggest you find a complete D20 guide book and then research the tweaks the game developers made to the system for this game. If you don't want to do that you can read my much less detailed guide, for beginners, in the game play guides section on this site.

[Nothing - Toilet]

A well though out guide, good job, you get a medpack

[HonorableBoor]

Originally posted by nothing:

A well though out guide, good job, you get a medpack

Thank you, nothing. I love you.

[fenke]

Honorable, since Steam has diffculty quoting your post I will do it manually.For starters, you don't need to explain KotOR's variant of D20 to me. I know how critical hits work, in detail, how to compare Flurry with Criticl Strike and what Constitution does, and I know that in this game you do not need the extra health points per level it grants you character.

With 'burst damage' I am not referring to grenades, but in general to a large amount of damage, coming in any form, dealt in such a short amount of time that it can not be countered (fast enough) with healing. Your character's health pool should be large enough to survive such bursts, but it doesn't need to be much larger, since regular healing can counter that. Fortitude saves are nice, but not really a must-have neccessity, in this game.

All in all, constitution is not a high priority attribute and having 18 points into it represents approx. 8 attribute points spent in a low priority attribute.

We now come to

"The difference between dexterity 14 and dexterity 18 is exactly 2 modifier points"

Not having those 8 points in Constitution (the difference between 18 and 10) means you have 8 points to spend elsewhere, like in Dexterity. Those 8 points represent a total of 4 modifier points, not 2.

If you lose 2 modifier points and it accounts for 20% of your defense, that means your defense was 10 to start.

No, that is not how D20 works.

In this system when an attack is made a random number between 1 and 20 is generated (this used to be a roll of a 20 sided dice in PnP). If the number rolled is a 1, the attack fails, if it's a 20, the attack hits. If the nummer rolled is neither 1 nor 20, various attack modifiers are added and the result is compared to the target's defence with the various defensive modifiers added to it and if the modified attack roll is larger then the modified defence the attack is considered a hit.
Now, assuming attacker and defender are about equal, with a roll 1-10 missing and 11-20 hitting, 10 out of 20 attacks hit and 10 out of 20 miss. Now, when we add a +2 modifier to defense, rolls 1-12 will miss and 13-20 hit, or 12/20 miss and 8/20 hit. That already represent a 20% higher miss rate. Similarly our Sentinal with lightsabre finesse can add the +2 to his attack modifier and will now only miss on rolls 1-8 and hit on 9-20. That too represents a 20% change.
Because of the automatic miss and hit on 1 and 20 respecively these percentage change when attacker and defender are not well matched. A poor attacker, who would previously see all rolls but 19 and 20 miss will alwats see his 20 hit, no matter how much we add to defence. Similarly, a very strong attacker will always see his 1 miss.

If you put no points into constitution at character creation and put them all (leaving constitution at 8 or -1 modifier) into dex, it will give you a dex of 17. You just bought +1 to dex at the expense of all constitution bonuses.

Tsk, tsk, straw man fallacy in there ...

If you put that much in a stat at creation you commit yourself to spending all levelup point into it as well, so you'd end up at about 23 or 24 DEX, before bonusses, if you really wanted to go to this extreme. The +10 DEX represent a +5 modifier to attack and defence compared to 14 DEX, resulting in approx. 50% better chance-to-hit and a similar increase to your defence.

But (for this game) I would not recommend putting more then 14 points into any stat at creation. I would however recommend to put 10 in CON and distribute the additional 6 points you spend there (to get it on 15) across various stats and spend the level up points somewhere more useful.

If however one wishes to experiment with implants anyway, I suggest starting with 14 in Constitution and use 4 levelup points to get it to 18. It is unlikely you would be making or looting the 18 CON implants before level 16 anyway.

... +3 doesn't matter

No, indeed, +3 does not do a lot, but as you should know, in this type of game it is a +3 from this, another +2 from that and then +4 from something else. It's all the small bonusses added together that do make a big difference.

The above paragraph is gibberish. This is a build based on Global Attribute gain for Sentinal class, which is not a prestige class so +3 for prestige does not apply (I assume you mean attribute gain every 3 levels instead of 4, which is not "+3 prestige bonuses")

You complain about 'gibberish' in the same paragraph that you write this nonsense? 'Global Attribute' - what's that? And what attribute gain every 3 levels are you talking about?

You aim to end with base attributes at an even number. While this may seem to give the best results for modifiers, it neglects bonusses on attributes from gear and stimulants. Adding a +5 gear bonus to an even valued attribute will not give the best modifier. Without knowing the equipment modifiers you can not predict which attribute values are optimal.

If you want to go off build (which you should, it's only a build) and get a prestige class then please feel free to do so

Off course you get a prestige class, why would you not?

Absolutely none of the stims or force powers create a random attribute bonus of any kind

Check your logs. Afaik there are dice rolls that determine how much bonus the stimulants add.

The point of this build is to give unfamiliar players a chance to explore the game content, not predict your combat choices. It is supposed to help players avoid wasting points on attributes that seem super important on the surface and during early game, but don't actually help that much later on.

Your build wastes a lot of points on Constitution. You don't need that much - even when the extra health seems useful early on, it is wasted in the mid and end-game. The only reason to go 18 points into Constitution is to get the higher tiered implants, but they will never repay the points you spend in Constitution. Only one item can potentially pay back this investment, but this is a random drop near the end of the game.

....I cannot account for random gear drops ...

Meaning you can not predict how your character will enter battle 6 levels from now, prescribing an exact build is thus not optimal. The only thing one can do is follow general directions, depending on what kind of gameplay is favoured. Choosing for lightsabre, ranged or force-powers favours specific class, build and gear choices.

I'm glad you like Sentinals. They do not get anywhere near the combat bonuses as Gaurdians. The level increases for base attack alone make a huge difference in how well you do in combat

As far as I know KotOR-2 deviates from KotOR-1 (and D20) in giving Guardians, Sentinals and Consulars the same progression in base-attack. On top, Guardians get only one feat more the Sentinals. With those two decisively important factors equalized, Sentinals stand above the others because of their skill point progression while they are almost as strong as Guardians in combat.

Immunity to critical hits is included in a bunch of different gear and a feat is not needed to get that effect. It is also not that powerful because most enemies will not use critical strike/sniper shot very often

It's a piece of gear you can give to companion then, who are generally weaker anyway. Critical hits can occur without using these specific attacks that increase the threat-range.

D-class implants are the most powerful in the game, there are several worth having and many that can completely restore the bonus you think you lost to other attributes

Which implants are you thinking of? Except for a specific random drop, there is no implant that will make up the 9 attribute points that you put in Constitution to get it from 10 to 18.

[HonorableBoor]

Fenke, I have choosen not to quote your comment, manually or otherwise, cause ain't nobody got time for that. I'll address your concerns in as close to the order you stated them as I can though, so you can go back and reference them.

First of all, this is a build for 1st time players and content seekers. If you don't like it you are free to mosey on your merry way whenever you like.

In the D20 world, most of us like to use the term massive damage. Burst damage is pretty cute though. Makes it seem like maybe there will be fireworks. Use whatever terms you like, just don't expect me to know them and I won't expect you to know the terms I use either (even though they're standard terms). Global Atrributes are attributes everyone gets from the world simply for being in it and acheiving the needed level, regardless of in game choices. It's not a term I made up, and as often as you ask for advice in the forum I would have thought you had heard it before.

If you assume that 1-10 will miss and 11-20 will hit, then I guess we can just throw the die away and grab a coin to flip. Read your logs a little more closely, shockingly enough you'll find no evidence to support your amazing hypothesis that the D20 is just a cooler looking penny that we can divide into ten pieces after we flip it. Better yet, go run into combat with a naked character and let me know if you get hit 50% of the time. Nice thought but that's not the way it works out in this game. I see where you're coming from, but that hypothesis you came up with doesn't pan out in practical terms.

In your next prargraph you continue to explain how the difference between a +5 modifier and a +2 modifier will account for 50% of your chance to hit. My current level 12 Sentinal has an attack modifier of +22. Even if the D20 was actually a penny and the enemies had stats that related to my level equvilency (which they don't), +3 is not going to account for 50% of my chance to hit because luckily I have other modifiers. Not unless I squint real hard and tilt my head when I look at my combat logs. I'm super glad you recommend not putting more than 14 into any stat. I bet you could even make your own attribute tips guide, instead of making an attribute tips post asking other people what you need to do to make a character "that has 20 in as many as possible". Nice use of strawman fallacy though, bonus points for flair.

Yes it does add +2 for this and +4 for that, which is exactly why the +3 doesn't matter. It's after you add in the other modifiers +3 to defense doesn't matter, if there were no other modifiers it would be crucial, so thanks for proving my point on that one.

I aim to give newer players a starting sheet that they can use to unlock content and explore the world with whatever play style they like. Unless they like to try to get as many attributes to 20, I guess. Since this character has the potential to unlock all party member content, what do you suppose the chances are of any of those stats being even after attribute bonuses are applied? Hard to say since all those attributes can be increased by NPC's depending on in game choices. I specifically chose not to address those potential gains, so as not to spoil content. I don't imagine anyone is going to end up spreading those last three points after level 12 to all the uneven attributes left since they'll have nailed down a play style, but if they want to they can and it won't hurt their character. No one stays on build, and they shouldn't. It's a reference to use at character creation. Anyone that rolls the dice knows that the most fleshed out build always takes a turn when it hits the DM or GM.

You might not get a prestige class because you don't want it, or you want to make a nuetral character that doesn't get a prestige class. Maybe my build is for beginners and specifically states that I don't want to add spoilers (I mentioned the prestige classes but specifically chose not to go into any details). Maybe the way that you think is most fun to play this game doesn't apply to my content build. I suppose the options are endless on that one since my guide is a guide for character creation and not a mandate on how you live your life.

I took your advice and checked my logs for stims to see if you were right. "Harry Kim uses Adrenal Stimulant". Where is the die roll? Maybe it's in a secret log that's only for the bestest players. I guess I'm just really lucky and always get exactly the bonus desribed by the stim. Yay, me. Afiak there are no die rolls for attribute bonuses from stims.

My build puts usable points into constitution that will directly relate to how many medpacs, stims, and force buffs your character will have to waste combat rounds on. Which leaves you free to actually deal damage during those rounds, killing your opponent more quickly. So while your spending a round avoiding 60 points of damage or healing 100, I still have 100 in reserve and I am attacking my opponent with upwards of 200 damage (depending on my current playstlye). You act like I'm going to spend in constitution and then stand quietly in corners while the enemies in the game beat me to death. You have suggested several times that those points would be better spent on dexterity, where they will be mostly useless by mid game at the latest. (Oh no, I forgot your magic math where everything is equal and the D20 is a coin. Whatever will I do with now that my attack Base of +24 is 50% less effective due to a +3 modifier loss.) Your other suggestion is to spread them out everywhere, making the most vanilla and least specialized character in all gods creation. If you want to do that, then knock yourself out, have a blast. Since my build isn't tailored exactly to your game play needs, it must be garbage. Sorry for forcing it on you.

First of all, I'd like you look in my original build post and tell me where I say anything about predicting your over-all modifiers for combat. I didn't because it's a build and not a new bible I want you live by. Secondly, your comment clearly states that force powers and stims are random and that is why you can't predict your combat stats. Since the attribute bonuses are NOT RANDOM from stims and powers, your idea that exact combat stats can't be addressed is false. I included the part about making future predictions because I assumed you were an idiot that would try to twist his own words into making it seem like you meant future prediction instead of predictions for your current stats. Hmmm......

I far as I know, you don't know very far. Considering I currently have a gaurdian with an unmodified base attack of 7 at level 8 and a Sentinal with an unmodified base attack of 12 at level 12, your 1 to 1 assumption might be flawed. You are right about feats though, 19 choosable feats for Sentinal and 20 for Gaurdians. Not all the feats are choosable however, and the Gaurdians automatic feat gains heavily out-weigh the combat bonuses of a sentinals.

Immunity to critical hits is in a lot of gear, available early on. Everyone can have it. Maybe if your character had some vitality points he wouldn't lose a quarter his health everytime a connon-fodder rolls a 20 and you would realize you could be focusing on something else.

Even a common reaction sytem available at consitution of 16 and adds a +3 to dex restores the dexterity modifier that you are so convinced you lost. You will likely have one before level 10. As you go up in level and increase your constitution to 18 you will get better implants that can either pretty much make up the difference in continued attribute spending for dex, or completely make up for it (depending on gear drops).

Long story short, there are a lot of ways to play this game and none of them are the wrong way. Some builds are better than others, but that is hard to judge since most builds are for a specific purpose. I don't care how you play. I would appreciate it if you would stop attempting to hijack my thread by posting your opinions like they were fact and giving out false information about the core mechanics of the game though. If you don't like my build, don't use it.

[fenke]

Hi.

Global Attributes is not a term commonly used in D20, not even on forums: https://www.google.com/search?q=global+attributes+d20 so you did make it up. From your description it sounds like you refer to things like your HP pool, saves and base attack.

Burst damage is a term I know from MMORPG and while massive damage is in D20, it is not what I meant.

If you assume that 1-10 will miss and 11-20 will hit

Please read what I write and stop making Straw Man arguments. If you did read my post you'd find an explanation of the D20 attack roll system, something you probably should try to understand before engaging in a detailed number crunching attempt.
Here read my description of D20 attack rolls first, if you find a penny in there, I'll give you a dollar

In this system when an attack is made a random number between 1 and 20 is generated (this used to be a roll of a 20 sided dice in PnP). If the number rolled is a 1, the attack fails, if it's a 20, the attack hits. If the nummer rolled is neither 1 nor 20, various attack modifiers are added and the result is compared to the target's defence with the various defensive modifiers added to it and if the modified attack roll is larger then the modified defence the attack is considered a hit.

I'll try to explain the proces so that perhaps you might come to understand.

Roll a 20 sided dice
Check if the roll is 1 or 20, if it rolled 1 the attack fails, if it rolles 20 the attack hits. Done
Otherwise, add all attack modifiers to the roll, compare the value to defence plus all it's modifiers, if it's larger, the attack hits, if not it misses

It's really not that hard, it has nothing to do with tossing pennies, but with rolling a 20 sided dice and some primary school math.

I aim to give newer players a starting sheet that they can use to unlock content and explore the world with whatever play style they like

Your guide locks them into a build that focusses on implants. Which will not give them anything because they are terrible. The only conceivable use I could see for them is temporarily playing gunslinger on a character otherwise build as lightsabre user. But you never point in that direction. All other implants simply do not add, or change, enough to make a big enough impact on a build.

And you also waste an attribute point for no reason at all! But I suppose that is your point, an effective build will make the game to easy so you waste points in Constitution, gimping your character enough to make it all a bit more challenging.

My build puts usable points into constitution that will directly relate to how many medpacs, stims, and force buffs your character will have to waste combat rounds on.

Mhh, no actually Constitution does not make your character more effective in combat, actually Dexterity and Strength do that better. If anything, your constitution sentinel would need more stims then a Dexterity or Strength oriented build. Luckily, you do not need to waste rounds on stims, you either use them before battle or from the inventory, at the start of the round. It worked like this in Kotor-1, I assume it still works in kotor-2.

I far as I know, you don't know very far. Considering I currently have a gaurdian with an unmodified base attack of 7 at level 8 and a Sentinal with an unmodified base attack of 12 at level 12, your 1 to 1 assumption might be flawed.

You are saying the Sentinel got +12 base attack at level 12, or +1 attack per level and the Guardian got only +7 base attack in 8 levels? You are saying your Sentinel got more base attack per level then the Guardian? So according to your observation the Sentinal gets better combat stats then the Guardian?

Bickering about Sentinel vs. Guardian is pointless, the Sentinel gets the most skill points, and thereby the most content. Sentinal gets the same attack progression as the Guardian, and almost the same number of feats.

You act like I'm going to spend in constitution and then stand quietly in corners while the enemies in the game beat me to death.

No? I don't think I made any such remarks, please point them out if you read something of that nature in my post. More dexterity will make your character more effective though, especially in the end-game, when you face the bosses. Constitution will do nothing in those fights.

Immunity to critical hits is in a lot of gear

It takes up a slot and the item your character uses is not available for other partymembers, who may need it more (Kreia I am looking at you).

everytime a connon-fodder rolls a 20

They typically don't get to roll at all and when eventually one manages to roll a 20, they don't roll enough damage to get through Barrier anyway (which was untouched because the rolls from the other fodder all missed anyway due to the high defence from dexterity.

Long story short, there are a lot of ways to play this game and none of them are the wrong way.

That is true.

I would appreciate it if you would stop attempting to hijack my thread by posting your opinions ...

Then don't make threads on a discussion forum. Create a guide, then discuss the guide in a thread, if you want feedback.

like they were fact and giving out false information about the core mechanics of the game though.

I don't give out false information, you deliberately misinterpret my statements and twist them. and then claim it is false information. Perhaps your use of logical fallacies is the kind of logic you are the most familiar with?

[HonorableBoor]

I give up Fenke, you win the internet. Please excuse my continued presence on this planet. [walks backwards out of room, bowing repeatedly.]

[fenke]

Ach, so sad.

[UnicornPoacher]

I am now profoundly confused after that duel of the fates!

[Questionable]

Strength - 10 +0
Dexterity - 13 +1
Constitution - 15 +2
Intelligence - 14 +2
Wisdom - 13 +1
Charisma - 13 +1

You literally can't do this, not enough points.

[Cobravirus]

Constitution only raises your max HP & gives you access to more implants. Not the best investment of points imo. You can just get bonus Con from armour/robes anyway.

[cerberusiv]

Originally posted by I used to to trap out of subway:

Constitution only raises your max HP & gives you access to more implants. Not the best investment of points imo. You can just get bonus Con from armour/robes anyway.

Bonus Con doesn't count towards implants. If you are using TSLRCM you would be very unlucky not to find an implant (or several) that boosts multiple stats making the investment in Con pay off. You can get more than enough Str and Dex from gear (including the high end implants) and there are implants to boost skills rather than putting points into Int. If you are playing a consular there is an argument for putting the points into Wis, otherwise Con is a good investment.