Traya's plan explained? [SPOILERS]

[Uncle Bones]

Ok, so I completed KotOR2 for the first time last week, and I'm still thinking about it, that's how good it was. But there are a few loose ends I'm not sure on, specifically with Darth Traya's plan to destroy/ deafen the force, and wookiepedia isn't really helping. I'm going to run down what I know about Darth Traya's plot, and then list some questions at the end. Feel free to skip to the end to see the questions, I'm writing it out for the hardcore fans to read through and see if I'm getting it right.

Her origins I understand; exiled by the Jedi, discovers Malachor V's Trayus Academy, teaches Darth Nihilus and Sion in the dark side but eventually gets betrayed. So, I won't go into detail on that.

So during her betrayal by her dark-sider students, she gets stripped of the force and loses her Jedi abilities. From this point on she abandons both the Jedi and the Sith, and begins her plan in removing the force from the galaxy using "force wounds." She discovers the Exile, and decides to attempt to use her force wound from Malachor to try and bring about her plan.

The Exile is being brought back into republic space through the Harbinger, but is attacked by Sith. She is rescued by Kreia, but she too is attacked and makes a landing on the Peragus mining facility. There, they develop a force bond between them, and Kreia manipulates the Exile into submission by claiming the force bond is lethal, and will kill her if Kreia dies.

From here, she tries to teach or manipulate the Exile into her image, and starts bringing her plan together. She manipulates and even blackmails some of the Exile's companions so they stay with the Exile, she saves Hanharr from Mira and sends him to Malachor V to await her, she feeds General Tobin false information so that he may leak it to Darth Nihilus, she convinces Atris to accept her fall to the Dark Side, and finally has all of the last remaining Jedi gather on Dantooine so she may kill them (assuming the player doesn't kill them already).

Once both Darth Nihilus and the Jedi have been killed by the Exile, she returns to Malachor V to finalise her plan and bring about an end to the force. She takes in Sion again, and waits for the Exile. Her plan was to use the force bond with the Exile to strengthen the force wound so that it may cripple the force and destroy all remaining force sensitives, but decides to wait for the Exile so that Traya may confront her. Once the player arrives and defeats her, she predicts the future for the Exile and succumbs to the force (dies).

Now, here's what I don't understand:
1- If she had her connection to the force severed, how did she establish a force bond with the exile? I assume that maybe the Exile gave her strength, but the Exile feeds off of other force users so I'm not sure how that works.
2- I'm not sure why she saves Hanharr, I get that she tries to help him kill Mira, but how does that help her plan in any way?
3- How would she use her force bond with the Exile to end the force? I read on wookiepedia that she planned to sacrifice herself, but how would that work? As well as that, she was innevitably killed by the Exile anyway, so whether or not she won or lost the battle, she would have enacted her force purge.

I hope that others can help answer my questions, thanks for your patience. You're all great

[Andaros]

It seems to be everyone completely misses the point to Darth Traya because they focus on what her plan was. Traya is an attempt by Bioware, and later Disney, to force people to think of the Force as not a black and white, but in 50 shades of grey. Her purpose in the plot is to promote a sense of moral ambiguity. If the official canon storyline is similar, then her plan pushes/directs the MC toward moral ambiguity, rather than a viewpoint that includes good and evil. It's to make more like her, if this is the case.

P.S. They got rid of an awful lot of optional content from what the game once was, you could be arrested after helping the Ithorians with stealing B4-D4, and not wiping his purchase information, for example, whereas in the current iteration, you cannot. Some of this may just be due to folly on the part of those who put together the TSLRCM and M4-78. You also used to be able to get the "sith" twi'lek as a companion if you played a female and played through Nar Shaddaa, and then Korriban, or M4-78 would likely allow it if this was still in the game. You had to at least have gone through the sequence in the Jek Jek Tar, and gotten the force breathing technique, I can't remember if that's it's name, but it was part of it. You also couldn't have a full party at the time you tried to get him. A lot has been cut though, so I don't know if it's even possible anymore. It was also possible at one time to not get G0-T0 as a companion.

[psychotron666]

Andaros님이 먼저 게시:

It seems to be everyone completely misses the point to Darth Traya because they focus on what her plan was. Traya is an attempt by Bioware, and later Disney, to force people to think of the Force as not a black and white, but in 50 shades of grey. Her purpose in the plot is to promote a sense of moral ambiguity. If the official canon storyline is similar, then her plan pushes/directs the MC toward moral ambiguity, rather than a viewpoint that includes good and evil. It's to make more like her, if this is the case.

P.S. They got rid of an awful lot of optional content from what the game once was, you could be arrested after helping the Ithorians with stealing B4-D4, and not wiping his purchase information, for example, whereas in the current iteration, you cannot. Some of this may just be due to folly on the part of those who put together the TSLRCM and M4-78. You also used to be able to get the "sith" twi'lek as a companion if you played a female and played through Nar Shaddaa, and then Korriban, or M4-78 would likely allow it if this was still in the game. You had to at least have gone through the sequence in the Jek Jek Tar, and gotten the force breathing technique, I can't remember if that's it's name, but it was part of it. You also couldn't have a full party at the time you tried to get him. A lot has been cut though, so I don't know if it's even possible anymore. It was also possible at one time to not get G0-T0 as a companion.

Traya wasn't written by BioWare or Disney, traya was written by Chris avellone from obsidian. Before they made Kotor, Chris read every single star wars novel and comic, and wrote traya and Kotor 2 as a way to flip the lore of star wars upside down on itself.

Also I played the game at release before the restored content mod was a thing, I don't remember any of those things you mentioned, like a twielik companion. You must be thinking of a mod, because those weren't a thing in the game (maybe cut content that never saw release).

[cerberusiv]

Where to begin?

Kreia is hinted to originally be a jedi nightcalled Arran Kae (never confirmed by Chris Avellone - but not denied either). She is believed to have died in the Mandalorian Wars but may have taught Revan. Reven certainly studied Kreia's teachings. It is likely that both developed views regarding the need for balance in the Force. Reven was prepared to play either side whilst Kreia began to plot the elimination of the Force (how you do this without eliminating life is not answered). Not clear exactly how this would work (my personal view is that she hoped to eliminate Force Sensitives as far as possible and turn everything and everyone away from the Force through, initially,m the actions of The Exile). Kreia was aware, as was Revan, of the true Sith Empire hidden in the Unknown Regions (sort of addressed in The Old Republic MMORPG [not that any real fan of the Kotor games ever acknowedges theexistence of that abomination]).

The Exile cuts him/herself off from the Force to survive Malachor V. This attracts Kreia's attention, particularly after her attempt to follow Revan and play a Sith Lord results in her power being stripped (did she actually allow this in order to work with the Exile?).

Kreia begins to influence The Exile, initially to remove the remaining jedi masters and sith lords, and then to seek Revan in the Unknown Regions. This game ends with Kreia/Traya and all the other Masters and Sith Lords dead and The Exile left presumably to follow Revans trail.

There is a huge amount of detail, some only the faintest of hints, buried in dialogue throughout this game that fits with what I have broadly set out but there is enough scope to interpret the details as you please.

[psychotron666]

cerberusiv님이 먼저 게시:

Where to begin?

Kreia is hinted to originally be a jedi nightcalled Arran Kae (never confirmed by Chris Avellone - but not denied either). She is believed to have died in the Mandalorian Wars but may have taught Revan. Reven certainly studied Kreia's teachings. It is likely that both developed views regarding the need for balance in the Force. Reven was prepared to play either side whilst Kreia began to plot the elimination of the Force (how you do this without eliminating life is not answered). Not clear exactly how this would work (my personal view is that she hoped to eliminate Force Sensitives as far as possible and turn everything and everyone away from the Force through, initially,m the actions of The Exile). Kreia was aware, as was Revan, of the true Sith Empire hidden in the Unknown Regions (sort of addressed in The Old Republic MMORPG [not that any real fan of the Kotor games ever acknowedges theexistence of that abomination]).

The Exile cuts him/herself off from the Force to survive Malachor V. This attracts Kreia's attention, particularly after her attempt to follow Revan and play a Sith Lord results in her power being stripped (did she actually allow this in order to work with the Exile?).

Kreia begins to influence The Exile, initially to remove the remaining jedi masters and sith lords, and then to seek Revan in the Unknown Regions. This game ends with Kreia/Traya and all the other Masters and Sith Lords dead and The Exile left presumably to follow Revans trail.

There is a huge amount of detail, some only the faintest of hints, buried in dialogue throughout this game that fits with what I have broadly set out but there is enough scope to interpret the details as you please.

Kreia wasn't trying to eliminate the force. She wanted to use the exile (who was basically a void in the force) to amplify the malachior force wound and connect to the force wounds across the galaxy, and deafen the force. It won't eliminate people who use the force, or the force itself, it will just deafen it so nobody can hear the force and use it.

[cerberusiv]

Thanks, I had not quite worked out exactly how what she intended would work. I was largely going on her line speaking to the Exile at the end "In you I see the death of the Force".

[wildnike]

cerberusiv님이 먼저 게시:

Thanks, I had not quite worked out exactly how what she intended would work. I was largely going on her line speaking to the Exile at the end "In you I see the death of the Force".

I actually see this as *technically* a part of the plan but also a lean on what was likely to be with Kotor 3.

Kreia was, in a sense, attempting to carry out the death of the force. Not through literally killing it, but abandoning it. Leaving the galaxy to forcefully live without the use of it. If the Exile is her proof of concept that an entity can cut themselves from the most powerful and arguably manipulative tool in the universe and live without it, how many more could follow in their footsteps?

On the quote itself, let's remember this was in term with a comparison to Revan, who she described as the Heart of the Force. I always thought the comparison would have been the Exile and Revan working together as equal if opposites sides of the coin and ideology in dealing with the great threat in the Unknown Regions, given the original K3 pitch.

[Altair1243]

Terra님이 먼저 게시:

CMDR Sweeper님이 먼저 게시:

A little bit unrelated, but your character you play as the Exile is killed after KOTOR 2...

I always shrugged of Kreia's plan as a simple plot of revenge, and I never got myself to trusting her...

I wouldn't put any stock in what comes after KotOR2 when it comes to KotOR2's plot.

The retconning of KotOR2 in TOR was so vicious and thorough that it borders on petty. Basically everything comes down to "no that didn't happen, that doesn't exist, wounds in the force aren't real, we're Bioware, up yours".

That's classic (modern) bioware, getting in early to ♥♥♥♥ everyone over. Thank you, I actually forgot that, yes, TOR was THAT bad. Gameplay might be serviceable, if you're thirsting for star wars, but otherwise... lol

[Altair1243]

Derek님이 먼저 게시:

-Sesh- Interesting exsplaination however the sith don't always support the strongest forenstance Darth Vader was more powerful than Palpatin yet he never took over, of course that was because other reasons but if Vader has a reason to follow someone weaker so could other sith.

-edit-basically I think sith tend to follow the strongest but not allways and after betraying someone why would you follow them again?

-edit-I would go more with Sion being easilly tricked but still its a bit odd

That's literally only because Vader never really WANTED to lead the sith. He was pretty much broken after....3, IIRC? which suited Palpatine just fine because he remained a lethal and loyal(?) tool. Granted, I suppose it is possible at some point Vader would have legitimately betrayed palpatine to take over, but obviously it never got that far

[Altair1243]

__-__-__님이 먼저 게시:

Angry British Ace님이 먼저 게시:

I'm interested to know what they did in TOR. I didn't read anything about them retconning the Force Wounds, what exactly do they do?



I'm glad about that, to be honest. Kreia was always there, which meant when she did turn on the player it impacted me more. Atris was cool but we barely see her. I guess if they did have her become Darth Traya they'd put more effort into including her but it still wouldn't be the same as one of your companions turning against you.

It wasn't exactly a retcon, it was more how they handled everything. After KotOR 2 the Exile is treated as a normal Jedi, while there are a few references to the fact the Exile isn't normal "she" sure can't cut it when it counts. There is also the new "Sith Emporer" is essentially Nihilus without the "Out of control" part, which was the only part that made Nihilus interesting. They also changed Revan from a guy who sees what needs to be done and will do what is necessary, including falling to the Dark Side, to arrive at a greater good, to the Sith Emporer's pawn, and it's unclear whether he was mind controlled or just evil, either of which diminish the build up KotOR 2 gave "him", which was mostly speculation on Kreia's part but made the character seem so much more interesting.

Agreed, though it would have been nice if they had given Atris more screen time. It's actually amusing sometimes, in old discussions there are those saying they saw the "Kreia is evil twist, coming a mile away", which seems like that was the point when, at one point it was actually the distraction for the "Atris is actually the bad guy" twist.

1) Even if the Exile isn't exactly a "normal" jedi, that doesn't mean that functionally they aren't, so the difference is kinda moot

2) Revan's personality didn't really change. The star forge was literally seeped in the dark side, so "mind control" is probably as close an approximation we can get to understanding how a cosmic force can cause you to switch sides and alter your beliefs, very likely unwillingly

3) Also, Kreia going full sith was a bit of a surprise but also not REALLY that unpredictable. Even for a "neutral" force user, she does at times make clearly dark-side related comments (like viewing your allies as disposable, etc..), and probably a good bit more frequently than she espouses anything light-side, the most I can remember her disparaging dark side is for unnecessary cruelty but less for humanitarian purposes and more because it's just actually out of control and unneeded