Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
19 
Report this post
2- I think saving Hanharr is added insurance for her larger strategy on Malachor, which is to isolate the Exile and force her to go through Trayus alone. Mira has a particular talent for finding people, so Hanharr may be a distraction to ensure that she is unable to link up with the Exile.
3- There's a lot of talk about *echoes* in the game, and Kreia talks about manipulating people and events through a series of small actions which create trends that build over time. I think Kreia's goal is to create a resonance cascade (so to speak) from the echoes from wounds in the Force that will build upon each other until they become deafening. Killing/breaking the Exile, who has rebuilt so many connections with wounded people and on wounded planets, on Malachor V, which seems to be the biggest wound in the Force around, is probably the masterstroke intended to set off that cascade.
There was one more question I completely forgot to add originally, but what was the point of Traya visiting Atris and helping her accept her dark turn? Kreia's plan was obviously to starve Nihilus by promising an academy of force users but presenting him with one, killing both him and Atris in the process. But why go to all the trouble of converting her to the dark side proper if she was only going to have her killed a little bit later?
There's a lot of redundancies in Kreia's plan here that are obfuscating things. Nihilus has to be killed, and if the Exile fails to do that, Kreia needs him to be as weak as possible in the event she has to do it herself. Kreia considers Atris's teachings to be dangerously flawed and wants to prevent her from ever taking students. Ideally, Kreia will end the Force and it'll be a moot point, but if things don't turn out that way, she wants Atris out of the picture. Completing Atris's turn to the dark side increases the odds that her confrontation with the Exile will end in violence. Even if Atris survives, the combination of shattering her personal illusions and being confronted by the Exile will break her to the point where she will either abandon the idea of teaching, her flawed beliefs, or both.
Kreia is playing the long game, and having been utterly defeated once, she knows better than to assume that everything will go smoothly.
I always shrugged of Kreia's plan as a simple plot of revenge, and I never got myself to trusting her...
and also why did she want Nihilus dead sherlly he could have destroyed the force. possible it was because he betrade her and she wanted revenge, or possible he would have killed all life and she didn't want that?
what do you think?
I wouldn't put any stock in what comes after KotOR2 when it comes to KotOR2's plot.
The retconning of KotOR2 in TOR was so vicious and thorough that it borders on petty. Basically everything comes down to "no that didn't happen, that doesn't exist, wounds in the force aren't real, we're Bioware, up yours".
@CMDR Sweeper - Yes, I read that the Exile is killed while trying to save Revan. The thing about Kreia is that she isn't just a simple black and white, good or evil character. I think simply boiling her plan down to "revenge" is an understatement of what she was ultimately trying to achieve. Revenge is of course a part of why she does what she does; she's bitter at the Jedi, the Sith and the Force, and wishes to erradicate them entirely. But she isn't so single minded, she can see the big picture, how a lack of force within the galaxy would change things. She believes that people became slaves to the force, and that her plan would mean they would no-longer be under its control. I don't believe she did what she did for selfish reasons, whether or not she was truly evil or morally grey.
@Opos - I don't think they did help her, really. There was a point where a bunch of sith assassins appeared behind Kreia when she was at the temple, the screen fades to black and suddenly they're all dead. I think Sion only helped her because he's very submissive to her. As for Nihilus, if he had his way he would consume everything and kill the galaxy. He was too dangerous to let live and he would have never joined forces with Kreia anyway. With the Exile, at least Kreia could manipulate her/ him, mould them into her image.
Kreia's plan always struck me as far less big than "destroying the force", that was something that it seemed she wanted to do but wasn't really in a position to act on it (though the resonance cascade idea seems possible), it always struck me as something they had hoped to expand upon in a sequel. Kreia's plan always seemed to be about enacting vengeance on those that questioned her value as a teacher, the Jedi of the council and Nihilus and Sion, and proving her value beyond a shadow of a doubt. She did so by teaching someone who went on to gather the Jedi Council (Kreia may have spared them if they had accepted the Exile), to defeat Nihilus and Sion (and was probably the only person that could), and then to prove that her teachings transcend even her own life Kreia forced her best student to overcome her.
To your questons:
1. It may not be absolutely necessary for someone to have a "normal" connection to the force to establish a bond, and it is unclear what Kreia's status was at any point in the game. Additionally, Kreia's loss is likely very different from the Exile's. Kreia's is probably more like amputation where the Exile's was closer to physically tearing a limb off, which may change how things worked.
2. Easiest answer is: cut content. Given how much was cut it's entirely possible Hanharr was to play a much larger role in a light side playthrough, at one point. Mira is also one of the few people Kreia doesn't seem to hold in contempt, it may have been an act similar to getting Atris involved, allowing them to deal with this problem that has been plagueing thier lives for years.
3. Kreia provides a possible answer here, she says that they can shield one-another, or possibly themselves from the negative side effects of thier bond when they are prepared to do so (when they are fighting). If Kreia just kills herself the Exile wouldn't be able to protect themselves, but as I said before I don't think Kreia was trying to end the force in this game, I think she was simply trying to force a confrontation between herself and her student to bring about the last phase of her plan.
4. At one point during development it was actually supposed to be Atris who donned the mantle of Darth Traya and was to be the final confrontation of the story. So, again, easy answer: cut content.
The Sith serve whoever is strongest, if Kreia managed to prove that, by killing some and forcing Sion to submit, they would serve her.
Nihilus is everything she hates most, complete dependence on the Force, power without control and a student that failed to learn anything.
-edit-basically I think sith tend to follow the strongest but not allways and after betraying someone why would you follow them again?
-edit-I would go more with Sion being easilly tricked but still its a bit odd
I'm interested to know what they did in TOR. I didn't read anything about them retconning the Force Wounds, what exactly do they do?
I'm glad about that, to be honest. Kreia was always there, which meant when she did turn on the player it impacted me more. Atris was cool but we barely see her. I guess if they did have her become Darth Traya they'd put more effort into including her but it still wouldn't be the same as one of your companions turning against you.
It may also be a "unite against a common enemy thing", with the Exile (the last Jedi) coming to Malachor V the Sith could have united temporarily to resist.
It wasn't exactly a retcon, it was more how they handled everything. After KotOR 2 the Exile is treated as a normal Jedi, while there are a few references to the fact the Exile isn't normal "she" sure can't cut it when it counts. There is also the new "Sith Emporer" is essentially Nihilus without the "Out of control" part, which was the only part that made Nihilus interesting. They also changed Revan from a guy who sees what needs to be done and will do what is necessary, including falling to the Dark Side, to arrive at a greater good, to the Sith Emporer's pawn, and it's unclear whether he was mind controlled or just evil, either of which diminish the build up KotOR 2 gave "him", which was mostly speculation on Kreia's part but made the character seem so much more interesting.
Agreed, though it would have been nice if they had given Atris more screen time. It's actually amusing sometimes, in old discussions there are those saying they saw the "Kreia is evil twist, coming a mile away", which seems like that was the point when, at one point it was actually the distraction for the "Atris is actually the bad guy" twist.
Mira is one of the ones that you can train to become a Jedi so if you went that route, that was definitely a possibility, but even if Mira wasn't, the Exile seemed to hate losing anyone under her command, Jedi or not.
I'm not really sure if I'd say it was really a twist; there were so many hints to her being evil that I probably would have been more of a twist if she didn't try to betray me (I just didn't know it would be on such a grand scale; I expected her to be a pre-final boss or something, not the main antagonist). But what I liked about it is, despite all the shady things she was doing and her affiliation with the Sith Lords, I wanted to like her. She wasn't exactly the friendliest person but I had respect for her and her beliefs, and she obviously /cared/ for what was going on and for the Exile.
For me, it wasn't a case of whether or when she will betray me, but rather will I be able to convince her to turn to the light. And, in this case, I couldn't. That's what made it personal, the fact that I liked this character, respected her, and wanted her to respect me; yet she still decides to betray the player anyway despite what I did to try and keep her from turning.