It annoys me to no end that everyone keeps saying being nice makes me weak.

[[GRVTS]Fat Bastard]

Like seriously do these idiots who have only ever experienced the dark side know the power of the buffs? or the healing power? NO THEY HAVE NOT. They keep saying following the light side makes me weak and it is frustrating when they are completely wrong I personally find the darkside weaker.

[Emmental]

One major thing being overlooked here. Kreia is wrong. There's no moral ambiguity, I won't say anymore becuse of spoilers.

[__-__-__]

Автор сообщения: Dave

One major thing being overlooked here. Kreia is wrong. There's no moral ambiguity, I won't say anymore becuse of spoilers.

I think everyone here has played through the game, no need to worry about spoilers.

[Spatz]

Great essay you wrote a few entries back, Sesh. I actually have a similar problem as FB with the forcing of moral choices, but not so much with the altuism vs. simony of the beggar that concerns FB. Rather it is the killing of the Jedi council members on Dantoine who I've spent a lot of time befriending. What I think happened was that Lucas at the time of the second trilogy said he wanted a "darker" story in the movies, and this translated over into the game which I think was being developed at the same time. Anyway, given the endgame, which even with the Restoration still doesn't make sense, it looks to me that the devopers/writers had to switch gears in mid-development and ended up forcing some of these moral choices to make a point as directed by Lucas. Pure speculation on my part, though. A great storyteller gets people to empathize with a point, not force them to accede.

There is actually a striking example of what the game could have done to create more three-dimensional characters instead of having them suddenly change without adequate preparation. It occurs when Kreia intrudes in the Jedi's thoughts while on Onderon. The "feeling the city" speech. At first, it annoyed me, but as she went on, it expanded to something almost metaphysical. In other words, this incident enhanced the immersive experience whereas the massacre on Dantoine took me completely out of it.

Probably the funniest thing to me was that despite all the blather about being the Last Jedi, there were actually quite a few despite all the attempts to explain it away. At least to me, clearly a sign that the story they started out with was changed in midcourse.

[[GRVTS]Fat Bastard]

Автор сообщения: Spatz

Great essay you wrote a few entries back, Sesh. I actually have a similar problem as FB with the forcing of moral choices, but not so much with the altuism vs. simony of the beggar that concerns FB. Rather it is the killing of the Jedi council members on Dantoine who I've spent a lot of time befriending. What I think happened was that Lucas at the time of the second trilogy said he wanted a "darker" story in the movies, and this translated over into the game which I think was being developed at the same time. Anyway, given the endgame, which even with the Restoration still doesn't make sense, it looks to me that the devopers/writers had to switch gears in mid-development and ended up forcing some of these moral choices to make a point as directed by Lucas. Pure speculation on my part, though. A great storyteller gets people to empathize with a point, not force them to accede.

There is actually a striking example of what the game could have done to create more three-dimensional characters instead of having them suddenly change without adequate preparation. It occurs when Kreia intrudes in the Jedi's thoughts while on Onderon. The "feeling the city" speech. At first, it annoyed me, but as she went on, it expanded to something almost metaphysical. In other words, this incident enhanced the immersive experience whereas the massacre on Dantoine took me completely out of it.

Probably the funniest thing to me was that despite all the blather about being the Last Jedi, there were actually quite a few despite all the attempts to explain it away. At least to me, clearly a sign that the story they started out with was changed in midcourse.

Those three Jedi felt like such a waste of time like all dead after spending hours saving them? coulda at least left the one with that glorious moustache alive. My biggest issue is that I am judged by the NPCs, but like do they have to be so zealous about it trying to turn me into a Sadist Sith who likes seeing children cry and families be seperated. That isn't "power" that isn't "strength" as the sith would call it, that is simply being a jerk for no real reason outside of "I NEED THE MONEY FOR MYSELF" of course being the dirty awful cheater that I am I had absolutely loads of credits. It's just irritating having my choices questioned when nothing is even grey in this game, they try to pull that "doing evil is bad and doing good is bad so do nothing" However I tried to do nothing right from the very begining of that begger dialog, but the game wouldn't let me off oh no no no you're going to watch this poor homeless person who can't live without those 5 credits get punched or you will threaten his life and save yourself 5 credits you vile greedy person. It's like the game is judging me I asked nicely for the beggar to leave, but he insisted I give him the credits couldn't I simple force persuade him to go get a job?. It's a very forced decision.

[__-__-__]

Автор сообщения: Spatz

Great essay you wrote a few entries back, Sesh. I actually have a similar problem as FB with the forcing of moral choices, but not so much with the altuism vs. simony of the beggar that concerns FB. Rather it is the killing of the Jedi council members on Dantoine who I've spent a lot of time befriending. What I think happened was that Lucas at the time of the second trilogy said he wanted a "darker" story in the movies, and this translated over into the game which I think was being developed at the same time. Anyway, given the endgame, which even with the Restoration still doesn't make sense, it looks to me that the devopers/writers had to switch gears in mid-development and ended up forcing some of these moral choices to make a point as directed by Lucas. Pure speculation on my part, though. A great storyteller gets people to empathize with a point, not force them to accede.

There is actually a striking example of what the game could have done to create more three-dimensional characters instead of having them suddenly change without adequate preparation. It occurs when Kreia intrudes in the Jedi's thoughts while on Onderon. The "feeling the city" speech. At first, it annoyed me, but as she went on, it expanded to something almost metaphysical. In other words, this incident enhanced the immersive experience whereas the massacre on Dantoine took me completely out of it.

Probably the funniest thing to me was that despite all the blather about being the Last Jedi, there were actually quite a few despite all the attempts to explain it away. At least to me, clearly a sign that the story they started out with was changed in midcourse.

They did have to change thier story mid way through development, though Lucas never actually cared what happened in anything Star Wars outside of the movies, Obsidian weren't allowed to play KotOR 1 until it was released but had to start working on it 3 or so months before KotOR 1 was actually released, when they finally played KotOR 1 they realized just how much they had to change to make thier story an appropriate follow up but likely tried to adapt a few elements of what they already had so that they didn't have to completely scrap a few months of work.

In all honesty Star Wars is a terrible setting for morally gray storytelling (and I find even the term "morally gray" misses the point, it's not whether you are good or bad or somewhere in between, it's whether or not you are given realistic choices and do thier consequences make sense). While KotOR 2 has downsides to most choices much of the time the bad side for the good choice is at most implied and there are so many situations where the good concequences completely overwhelm the bad (as an example: if you side with Czerka the mercenaries attack Czerka instead of the Ithorians, the decision to help the Ithorians leads to the deaths of many of Chodo Habat's herd but not a single named character actually dies and in the end the losses don't seem to matter as the Ithorians are said to have succeeded in thier resoration efforts. You've (unintentionally) traded a small number of unnamed Ithorians that mostly served as set dressing, for the restoration of any number of planets).

[Spatz]

Once again a most excellent response! There is another moral choice in KOTOR I that involves beggars like the scenario of concern to FB. When first entering the Lower World on Taris, several beggar boys tell a story of their plight that is suspect--are they really down-and-out or are they just trying to shake you down? The player has no idea of the conditions yet in the Lower World other than some comments made beforehand that it's not a nice place. In the response dialogue tree, you can A) give them 5 credits, which is what they asked for, B) give them 20 credits to assure them a good life, or C) tell them to take a hike. So, in this instance, you're given a third choice which seems to more fit your criteria of "realistic" and making "sense."

Alas, they drop the ball when the response to your decision is identical for choosing A or B (though I think you get LS points for B). Carth makes a snarky remark and the girl from the camp chases the bums away.

As a side note, the Mass Effect series that Bioware goes on to make, to me is an extension of KOTOR and I feel all five actually make up a pentalogy. In ME, the player also is confronted with moral choices.

To broaden the discussion a bit, what *could* the devs do to create a game with a sense of a moral choices? I think the "why" is that their motives are to create a more realistic and 3-d character player game environment, depth and immersion. The "how" must drive them crazy. They must either include it outside the plot, as in the beggars scenarios, use exposition (a game momentum killer), or to make it meaningful, include it in the plot (as they do for gaining trust of the other NPCs, for example). The problem becomes one, I think, of endless dialogue branches, each which must be flagged on how it affects the outcome. I've looked at some of those dialogue trees, all contained in vast arrays of variables: if this happens then this, this and this can happen and this, this and this, can't happen all interconnected. Whew!

Your point about the Ithorians is well-taken, something I hadn't even thought of.

In the end, the answer to FB's concern (and mine) is simple: do not force "moral" choices. But how to meet the critera of realistic and sensible choices within the confines of the gaming environment seems daunting. Can you think of any game that would meet that criteria?

[[GRVTS]Fat Bastard]

Автор сообщения: Spatz

Once again a most excellent response! There is another moral choice in KOTOR I that involves beggars like the scenario of concern to FB. When first entering the Lower World on Taris, several beggar boys tell a story of their plight that is suspect--are they really down-and-out or are they just trying to shake you down? The player has no idea of the conditions yet in the Lower World other than some comments made beforehand that it's not a nice place. In the response dialogue tree, you can A) give them 5 credits, which is what they asked for, B) give them 20 credits to assure them a good life, or C) tell them to take a hike. So, in this instance, you're given a third choice which seems to more fit your criteria of "realistic" and making "sense."

Alas, they drop the ball when the response to your decision is identical for choosing A or B (though I think you get LS points for B). Carth makes a snarky remark and the girl from the camp chases the bums away.

As a side note, the Mass Effect series that Bioware goes on to make, to me is an extension of KOTOR and I feel all five actually make up a pentalogy. In ME, the player also is confronted with moral choices.

To broaden the discussion a bit, what *could* the devs do to create a game with a sense of a moral choices? I think the "why" is that their motives are to create a more realistic and 3-d character player game environment, depth and immersion. The "how" must drive them crazy. They must either include it outside the plot, as in the beggars scenarios, use exposition (a game momentum killer), or to make it meaningful, include it in the plot (as they do for gaining trust of the other NPCs, for example). The problem becomes one, I think, of endless dialogue branches, each which must be flagged on how it affects the outcome. I've looked at some of those dialogue trees, all contained in vast arrays of variables: if this happens then this, this and this can happen and this, this and this, can't happen all interconnected. Whew!

Your point about the Ithorians is well-taken, something I hadn't even thought of.

In the end, the answer to FB's concern (and mine) is simple: do not force "moral" choices. But how to meet the critera of realistic and sensible choices within the confines of the gaming environment seems daunting. Can you think of any game that would meet that criteria?

Actually the easiest way to solve these things is to make the choices less Good and Evil and more a choice to ignore the plight of the meek or help them. If a game wants to confront you with big moral choices that game needs to realize that shoving a goodvsevil selection of choices can make the whole idea of them being choices rendered moot. Infact they should also remove the paragon/renegade/light/dark point system as that can influence choices as well. At the very least make it more related to being a Jedi and following the code instead of just doing good deeds and and bad deeds, I don't think it's in the jedi code to "give all your money to the poor" so yeah.

On another point I always thought the choices in mass effect 2 were pretty good nothing made me feel like a real villain, like that mission where you have to find thane and you are prompted with shoving a guard off the building or maybe it was shooting him idk. Anyways it wasn't a "evil act" it was a fast response to a possible threat to you and your friends it wasn't about being evil tho it was a ♥♥♥♥ move lol.

[__-__-__]

Автор сообщения: Spatz

Once again a most excellent response! There is another moral choice in KOTOR I that involves beggars like the scenario of concern to FB. When first entering the Lower World on Taris, several beggar boys tell a story of their plight that is suspect--are they really down-and-out or are they just trying to shake you down? The player has no idea of the conditions yet in the Lower World other than some comments made beforehand that it's not a nice place. In the response dialogue tree, you can A) give them 5 credits, which is what they asked for, B) give them 20 credits to assure them a good life, or C) tell them to take a hike. So, in this instance, you're given a third choice which seems to more fit your criteria of "realistic" and making "sense."

Alas, they drop the ball when the response to your decision is identical for choosing A or B (though I think you get LS points for B). Carth makes a snarky remark and the girl from the camp chases the bums away.

As a side note, the Mass Effect series that Bioware goes on to make, to me is an extension of KOTOR and I feel all five actually make up a pentalogy. In ME, the player also is confronted with moral choices.

To broaden the discussion a bit, what *could* the devs do to create a game with a sense of a moral choices? I think the "why" is that their motives are to create a more realistic and 3-d character player game environment, depth and immersion. The "how" must drive them crazy. They must either include it outside the plot, as in the beggars scenarios, use exposition (a game momentum killer), or to make it meaningful, include it in the plot (as they do for gaining trust of the other NPCs, for example). The problem becomes one, I think, of endless dialogue branches, each which must be flagged on how it affects the outcome. I've looked at some of those dialogue trees, all contained in vast arrays of variables: if this happens then this, this and this can happen and this, this and this, can't happen all interconnected. Whew!

Your point about the Ithorians is well-taken, something I hadn't even thought of.

In the end, the answer to FB's concern (and mine) is simple: do not force "moral" choices. But how to meet the critera of realistic and sensible choices within the confines of the gaming environment seems daunting. Can you think of any game that would meet that criteria?

To a certain extent a beggar refusing to leave you alone until you either give them some money or make it clear you will shortly force them to back off if the don't on thier own, is fairly realistic, sometimes you come accross people who just won't take "no" for an answer. Recieving dark side points for refusal and making it into a moral lesson, especially if all you wanted to do was get away from the character, based on which choice you were forced to make can cause the whole situation to feel contrived. It can be difficult to integrate such a "lesson" into every individual playthrough but it would be possible not to force it, to let the player's choices dictate when and if such a lesson would appear and to not force the lesson after forcing the choice. There are several instances throughout the game that could be used to illustrate the point but actually allow for a neutral choice, as the dialogue in the lesson isn't even planet specific it could have been set up to trigger at any choice where a negative outcome for a positive action is possible.

You should check out Jade Empire, it's halfway between KotOR and Mass Effect. It also provides the "link" between KotOR's good/evil alignment system and Mass Effect's Paragon/Renegade, they call it Open Palm/Closed Fist.

I'm not really sure what the context was but when asked about Mass Effect 2's final mission Bioware said they were never going to work on anything so complicated again.

Mass Effect and the way it handles player/world interactions, is a fairly good compromise that manages to maintain immersion but still provide a number of variables for the player to personalize a playthrough. It comes down to the preset character, in Mass Effect and quite a number of other RPGs, the character you are playing as is the hero, no matter what they do. Where Mass Effect differs from other games is that it works within that assumption providing relatively believable choices and concequences. Many other RPG's fail because they try to let you play anything from the hero to the villian but still force you to be the hero even if you've actually made a character that is literally the worst person that particular universe has ever seen before. Mass Effect still suffers because of it's alignment system though, if you don't choose to be as saintly as possible or as brutal as possible quite a number of late game options are taken away from you. It's a system that encourages playing to an alignment rather than to a character. There is only one game I've ever played that creates a situation where the player is equally believalbe as the good guy or bad guy: the first expansion for Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (also by Obsidian).

Most games that are heavily story based with strong characterizations that don't have alignment systems (or don't place much emphasis on their value) are already half-way there. The Witcher as a series handles itself in this way (it was an advertising point of the games "No good or evil, just choices"). Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines works similarly but that's mostly because you already are a monster, its just up to you to figure out what kind of monster you want to be. The recent Shadowruns by Harebrained Schemes also feature choices where it can be rather difficult to tell what is going to result in a "good" or a "bad" outcome. Alpha Protocol (again by Obsidian) accounts for player choice to the extent that characters will occasionally register what clothes you choose to wear in dialogue and may respond differently based on an extreme variety of variables from what side you chose to support in the plot, to who you spared (or didn't) as you played through the game (including both characters and the nameless enemies that act as the obstacles of any given mission), to the way you speak to a given character, and there are advantages to handling any situation or character with any of the methods presented to you, so there is little to no pressure to act in a certain manner if it doesn't actually fit with the character you are trying to play. There is also Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas. There are a few more, these are just the most well known.

[[GRVTS]Fat Bastard]

Автор сообщения: Sesh

Автор сообщения: Spatz

Once again a most excellent response! There is another moral choice in KOTOR I that involves beggars like the scenario of concern to FB. When first entering the Lower World on Taris, several beggar boys tell a story of their plight that is suspect--are they really down-and-out or are they just trying to shake you down? The player has no idea of the conditions yet in the Lower World other than some comments made beforehand that it's not a nice place. In the response dialogue tree, you can A) give them 5 credits, which is what they asked for, B) give them 20 credits to assure them a good life, or C) tell them to take a hike. So, in this instance, you're given a third choice which seems to more fit your criteria of "realistic" and making "sense."

Alas, they drop the ball when the response to your decision is identical for choosing A or B (though I think you get LS points for B). Carth makes a snarky remark and the girl from the camp chases the bums away.

As a side note, the Mass Effect series that Bioware goes on to make, to me is an extension of KOTOR and I feel all five actually make up a pentalogy. In ME, the player also is confronted with moral choices.

To broaden the discussion a bit, what *could* the devs do to create a game with a sense of a moral choices? I think the "why" is that their motives are to create a more realistic and 3-d character player game environment, depth and immersion. The "how" must drive them crazy. They must either include it outside the plot, as in the beggars scenarios, use exposition (a game momentum killer), or to make it meaningful, include it in the plot (as they do for gaining trust of the other NPCs, for example). The problem becomes one, I think, of endless dialogue branches, each which must be flagged on how it affects the outcome. I've looked at some of those dialogue trees, all contained in vast arrays of variables: if this happens then this, this and this can happen and this, this and this, can't happen all interconnected. Whew!

Your point about the Ithorians is well-taken, something I hadn't even thought of.

In the end, the answer to FB's concern (and mine) is simple: do not force "moral" choices. But how to meet the critera of realistic and sensible choices within the confines of the gaming environment seems daunting. Can you think of any game that would meet that criteria?

To a certain extent a beggar refusing to leave you alone until you either give them some money or make it clear you will shortly force them to back off if the don't on thier own, is fairly realistic, sometimes you come accross people who just won't take "no" for an answer. Recieving dark side points for refusal and making it into a moral lesson, especially if all you wanted to do was get away from the character, based on which choice you were forced to make can cause the whole situation to feel contrived. It can be difficult to integrate such a "lesson" into every individual playthrough but it would be possible not to force it, to let the player's choices dictate when and if such a lesson would appear and to not force the lesson after forcing the choice. There are several instances throughout the game that could be used to illustrate the point but actually allow for a neutral choice, as the dialogue in the lesson isn't even planet specific it could have been set up to trigger at any choice where a negative outcome for a positive action is possible.

You should check out Jade Empire, it's halfway between KotOR and Mass Effect. It also provides the "link" between KotOR's good/evil alignment system and Mass Effect's Paragon/Renegade, they call it Open Palm/Closed Fist.

I'm not really sure what the context was but when asked about Mass Effect 2's final mission Bioware said they were never going to work on anything so complicated again.

Mass Effect and the way it handles player/world interactions, is a fairly good compromise that manages to maintain immersion but still provide a number of variables for the player to personalize a playthrough. It comes down to the preset character, in Mass Effect and quite a number of other RPGs, the character you are playing as is the hero, no matter what they do. Where Mass Effect differs from other games is that it works within that assumption providing relatively believable choices and concequences. Many other RPG's fail because they try to let you play anything from the hero to the villian but still force you to be the hero even if you've actually made a character that is literally the worst person that particular universe has ever seen before. Mass Effect still suffers because of it's alignment system though, if you don't choose to be as saintly as possible or as brutal as possible quite a number of late game options are taken away from you. It's a system that encourages playing to an alignment rather than to a character. There is only one game I've ever played that creates a situation where the player is equally believalbe as the good guy or bad guy: the first expansion for Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (also by Obsidian).

Most games that are heavily story based with strong characterizations that don't have alignment systems (or don't place much emphasis on their value) are already half-way there. The Witcher as a series handles itself in this way (it was an advertising point of the games "No good or evil, just choices"). Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines works similarly but that's mostly because you already are a monster, its just up to you to figure out what kind of monster you want to be. The recent Shadowruns by Harebrained Schemes also feature choices where it can be rather difficult to tell what is going to result in a "good" or a "bad" outcome. Alpha Protocol (again by Obsidian) accounts for player choice to the extent that characters will occasionally register what clothes you choose to wear in dialogue and may respond differently based on an extreme variety of variables from what side you chose to support in the plot, to who you spared (or didn't) as you played through the game (including both characters and the nameless enemies that act as the obstacles of any given mission), to the way you speak to a given character, and there are advantages to handling any situation or character with any of the methods presented to you, so there is little to no pressure to act in a certain manner if it doesn't actually fit with the character you are trying to play. There is also Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas. There are a few more, these are just the most well known.

I have both neverwinter games on GoG and jade empire. I don't really like Jade empires combat system as well it's very limited and the animations are stiff. It is cool at first of course being a Wuxia badass, but eh maybe it's just because I picked white demon when the game warned me people disliked it because it wasn't flashy lol. In the witcher series I can't see myself as an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I think Geralt has a certain level of dignity and professionalism he needs to uphold.

[Burvjradzite]

Why i should even use force if i have blasters, lol. Gfys, stupid monk

[The Gaping Gull]

well the same thing happend to anikin skywalker in episode 3 so i guess its realistic