STAR WARS™ Knights of the Old Republic™ II: The Sith Lords™

STAR WARS™ Knights of the Old Republic™ II: The Sith Lords™

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dprog1995 23. mar. 2022 kl. 2:40
Am I the only one that finds Kreia annoying ?
She just keeps telling me to not help people because helping people will stop them from growing up and they will become dependent on you.
Which is completely unsuitable for a RPG game. A genre where you go around and do other people chores to get money/XP.

Pretty sure she would tell Spider-Man to not use his powers to help people.:steammocking:

It also feels like that the main writer of this game hates Star Wars morality system and has made Jedis as annoying as possible to prove to us that his self insert character is always right.

Also, Kreia's plan to "destroy the force" is hugely flawed. Because if that happens then:
1.Republic will get destroyed. It was always the Jedis that saved the Republic in Star Wars universe. The moment that Jedis got nearly extinct in episode 3, the Galactic Empire rised.
2.Outer Rim people will have no defense against the pirates. Jedis were the ones that helped the defenseless people against the pirates.

Edit: And the beggar scene kinda feels like a scene that the developers put in the game to troll the players. (Since no matter your choice Kreia tells you that you have made the wrong choice and the game loves to prove to you that she is right)
Sidst redigeret af dprog1995; 23. mar. 2022 kl. 5:24
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Kashui_32 23. mar. 2022 kl. 6:24 
The force has a will which is why the events of Star Wars even happened - that is why she hates it. If Avollone did anything he improved Star Wars morality system, the behaviour of the Jedi is in line with what we see in K1 and the films - only this time they’re being held responsible. They cannot live without the force except for the Exile.
dprog1995 23. mar. 2022 kl. 9:25 
Oprindeligt skrevet af King:
The force has a will which is why the events of Star Wars even happened - that is why she hates it. If Avollone did anything he improved Star Wars morality system, the behaviour of the Jedi is in line with what we see in K1 and the films - only this time they’re being held responsible. They cannot live without the force except for the Exile.
idk man but I thought that Obi Wan actually cut himself from the force between episodes 3 and 4 which is why Emperor and Vader couldn't sense him on Tatooine.(While on Death Star Vader could sense Obi Wan because Obi Wan was using the force there and the emperor could sense Luke because Luke used the force on Hoth. They didn't sense Yoda because Yoda was near that darkside cave.)
Oprindeligt skrevet af dprog1995:
idk man but I thought that Obi Wan actually cut himself from the force between episodes 3 and 4

Oprindeligt skrevet af dprog1995:
Vader could sense Obi Wan because Obi Wan was using the force

...how would Obi-Wan be using the Force on the Death Star if he cut himself off from it?

Regardless, I'm with ⎛⎝ O_O ⎠⎞ . It seems like KotOR 2 is just not for you.
psychotron666420 23. mar. 2022 kl. 15:15 
Why would kreia care about the Republic? Also the Jedi are basically destroyed utterly by the end of Kotor 2, so even if she didn't kill the force, no Jedi are showing up to protect anyone.

And it was established in the first game that the Jedi would not join the war against the mandalorian and let the Republic get destroyed, that's why revan, Malak and the exile and all the other Jedi left the order and joined the war.

And nothing in the game pushes you or requires you get kreia approval. I don't know why you care so much about that.
cerberusiv 23. mar. 2022 kl. 23:17 
Yes, Kreia is annoying. Most of the jedi in the films arer cryptic and annoying.

Why do you need anyone's approval anyway? Play a Sith and stop being so needy.
dprog1995 24. mar. 2022 kl. 2:35 
Oprindeligt skrevet af cerberusiv:
Yes, Kreia is annoying. Most of the jedi in the films arer cryptic and annoying.

Why do you need anyone's approval anyway? Play a Sith and stop being so needy.
Unfortunately, she is hard to ignore because even when I don't place her in party she still
complains and complains in my character's head whenever I make a decision.

Plus, playing the game as a Sith will just make her just telling me that "You have learned nothing."

The Jedis in the films were annoying but they were at least right unlike Kreia. Training Anakin was a mistake and attachment was forbidden because that was what that corrupted Anakin.
psychotron666420 24. mar. 2022 kl. 7:07 
Oprindeligt skrevet af dprog1995:
Oprindeligt skrevet af cerberusiv:
Yes, Kreia is annoying. Most of the jedi in the films arer cryptic and annoying.

Why do you need anyone's approval anyway? Play a Sith and stop being so needy.
Unfortunately, she is hard to ignore because even when I don't place her in party she still
complains and complains in my character's head whenever I make a decision.

Plus, playing the game as a Sith will just make her just telling me that "You have learned nothing."

The Jedis in the films were annoying but they were at least right unlike Kreia. Training Anakin was a mistake and attachment was forbidden because that was what that corrupted Anakin.

The Jedi in the movie are basically indoctrination of child soldiers. they only train them if they are young enough to take the indoctrination. Then they take them from their families. Then they don't allow them any emotional attachments whatsoever. And then they use literal child soldiers with clones to go to war with a federation that simply wanted to be independent and not under the thumb of the Republic (and the entire point of a republic is a group of nations who come together but always have the option to leave).

Then when Yoda's years long comrades turn on him, he doesn't hesitate to slaughter them without remorse instead of trying to reason with them or find out why they turned on them in the first place.

Even qui gon jin used his Jedi powers to cheat on a gambling deal so he could take Anakin away from his mother (whom he also could have freed but decided not to) simply because of his zealous belief in his religion.

Yeah the Jedi definitely aren't good guys.
Sidst redigeret af psychotron666420; 24. mar. 2022 kl. 7:08
Emmental 24. mar. 2022 kl. 9:48 
Kreia is insane. Something to keep in mind.
cerberusiv 24. mar. 2022 kl. 22:11 
Actually, Kreia has a point. The Force makes no sense if you think logically about the things that happen. Why did the Force "allow" the Mandalorians to slaughter millions, "allow" Revan to be corrupted (in fact corrupt him itself as Light and Dark are two sides of the same coin). It is incomprehensible if you think about it at a simplistic good vs evil level.

Things are much more subtle than that but Kreia has gotten rather hung up on details (obsession with relatively small things is a recognised symptom of various forms of insanity).

Whatever you do, you cannot please her or get her to stop nagging you so stop trying. She actually gives a lot of background information, usually indirectly, if you engage her in conversation. Live with the fact that she is irritating.

SPOILER You get to kill her in the end so cheer up and look forward to enjoying that.
Sidst redigeret af cerberusiv; 24. mar. 2022 kl. 22:13
Oprindeligt skrevet af Dave:
Kreia is insane. Something to keep in mind.
She's not insane. Prone to lying at any time, but not insane.
Emmental 26. mar. 2022 kl. 5:00 
Oprindeligt skrevet af Sid Starkiller:
Oprindeligt skrevet af Dave:
Kreia is insane. Something to keep in mind.
She's not insane. Prone to lying at any time, but not insane.
Okay dokay.
Red Star, Blood Moon 26. mar. 2022 kl. 13:36 
Oprindeligt skrevet af King:
The force has a will which is why the events of Star Wars even happened - that is why she hates it. If Avollone did anything he improved Star Wars morality system, the behaviour of the Jedi is in line with what we see in K1 and the films - only this time they’re being held responsible. They cannot live without the force except for the Exile.
Yeah a lot of people tried to give Avellone crap basically for deconstructing the whole stupid system George Lucas set up which frankly never even made sense to me. Why would I, killing out of anger a rapist raping my wife, lead me to the darkside, but emotionlessly killing people like a born psychopath working for the mob be lightsided? It didn't make any sense then and still doesn't because he pretty much just threw a whole bunch of fantasy and scifi tropes together blended with le Eastern mysticism and Christian moral-esque views in the 1970s. Like I get it, what he was trying to do with basically Buddhist non-attachment along with certain Western/Christianized moral concepts particularly the whole American "good vs evil" obsession, but comes off as really weak and childish even.



Oprindeligt skrevet af Sid Starkiller:
Oprindeligt skrevet af Dave:
Kreia is insane. Something to keep in mind.
She's not insane. Prone to lying at any time, but not insane.
This, which btw after the two force raped her or whatever they did, she swore revenge and you are a part of that revenge.

Kreia basically is that same grey Jedi you found in the middle of the jungle in KOTOR 1, but deconstructed and more nuanced. She's a manipulative witch sure, but that is also part of the point, because literally her whole entire shtick is to making her pupils as freethinking, questioning, and fiercely independent as possible, which outlays the whole hypocrisy of Jedis and the Force entirely regardless be they light or dark Jedis. This is why the Sith academy is like that just like the Jedi Council, which is they fing hated independence and true critical thinking, which itself may outlay Kreia's hypocrisy albeit she's consciously doing it to make you aware of it.

Like she will use you, but she will do it saying "know I am using you and everyone around you is using you" type of thing. It's why she will chew you out regardless what choice you make in, say, throwing a guy to his death on Nar Shadaa, or helping him out.

Your main problem is if you're the kind of person who's a people pleaser, you're going to be endlessly frustrated by Kreia because literally her whole entire point as a character is to eventually not care about pleasing her or gaining her approval whatsoever. I believe this is partly why so many people hated her, because they just wanted the affirmation of Kreia telling them "you did a good job" which lel good luck with her doing that.



Oprindeligt skrevet af psychotron666420:
Oprindeligt skrevet af dprog1995:
Unfortunately, she is hard to ignore because even when I don't place her in party she still
complains and complains in my character's head whenever I make a decision.

Plus, playing the game as a Sith will just make her just telling me that "You have learned nothing."

The Jedis in the films were annoying but they were at least right unlike Kreia. Training Anakin was a mistake and attachment was forbidden because that was what that corrupted Anakin.

The Jedi in the movie are basically indoctrination of child soldiers. they only train them if they are young enough to take the indoctrination. Then they take them from their families. Then they don't allow them any emotional attachments whatsoever. And then they use literal child soldiers with clones to go to war with a federation that simply wanted to be independent and not under the thumb of the Republic (and the entire point of a republic is a group of nations who come together but always have the option to leave).

Then when Yoda's years long comrades turn on him, he doesn't hesitate to slaughter them without remorse instead of trying to reason with them or find out why they turned on them in the first place.

Even qui gon jin used his Jedi powers to cheat on a gambling deal so he could take Anakin away from his mother (whom he also could have freed but decided not to) simply because of his zealous belief in his religion.

Yeah the Jedi definitely aren't good guys.
And also pretty much this. It is basically while the whole plot to the movies becomes bringing "balance to the force" because clearly as we can see, neither Jedi nor Sith is any kind of prophets or good guys and are basically just space wizards, the Jedi themselves being empowered favoured servants and advisors to the space republic/Rome/UN/murica, and with Sith pretty much being craven and ambitious who're at times disempowered or simply craving more.

I think that is also what made some core Star Wars fans not like this game, because of the way it really ripped up that merica propaganda/fairytale type thing which you're sort of expected not to question things in the movies much. It's partly why the movie Clerks was so funny in their discussion of the morality of blowing up the Death Star, because clearly the Jedi are never concerned about collateral damage. Jedi are basically like "well, if they're opposing the political and economic order start bombing them." The republic itself, meanwhile, being led by craven politicians also, not a perfect system, but plenty capable of going into WH40K nobles territory.

It's interesting in that it doesn't really teach you to pick a side, and makes you really question the characters and motivations of say Revan, for being truly a son of Kreia who independently decided to go defend the besieged planets and fight the Mandalorians by any means necessary, and fell for it. I think they should've spent more time emphasizing exactly why Melachor is such a holocaust though, because I'm pretty much like "so, you're saying it was what, just few thousand soldiers, however many space ships lost in orbit, some ground forces? Pffft that's one of many on turn 127 in Endless Space for me."
Red Star, Blood Moon 26. mar. 2022 kl. 13:42 
Oprindeligt skrevet af dprog1995:
Oprindeligt skrevet af cerberusiv:
Yes, Kreia is annoying. Most of the jedi in the films arer cryptic and annoying.

Why do you need anyone's approval anyway? Play a Sith and stop being so needy.
Unfortunately, she is hard to ignore because even when I don't place her in party she still
complains and complains in my character's head whenever I make a decision.

Plus, playing the game as a Sith will just make her just telling me that "You have learned nothing."

The Jedis in the films were annoying but they were at least right unlike Kreia. Training Anakin was a mistake and attachment was forbidden because that was what that corrupted Anakin.
tl;dr you're supposed to question yourself, and the very fact you even came to that conclusion shows Kreia was right and it worked.

Also the problem is unlike IRL systems where you simply fall farther and farther, here you are actively rewarded for picking a side and choosing only those decisions as fanatically as possible. It's always been a thing with gaming morality systems in vidya, but here in Star Wars it's particularly atrocious, with your sometimes weird light/dark outcomes feeling increasingly detached from your own decisions, and now typing this out maybe that itself lends credence to her assertion "the force itself is aware" because now as you gain force points and become increasingly powerful, you also feel as if you've lost more and more personal freedom and autonomy in choices you make.

Seriously play a straight dark side character and it increasingly feels like being a self-aware Bioshock character who's not in control of his own character anymore, and I think that that was part of Kreia's point about the light side being like demonic possession itself just as much. Kinda like "only white magicks" Wiccans being subjects to ♥♥♥♥♥ just as much as black magic Satanists, in a sense I guess. I mean keep in mind, these are space wizards, and it's never really clearly explained the nature of the force, even with the Midachlorians bs because it is treated as almost a presence in this game than just the Qi lifeforce of the first movies.
Kashui_32 27. mar. 2022 kl. 2:21 
Oprindeligt skrevet af BlackSun:
Oprindeligt skrevet af dprog1995:
Unfortunately, she is hard to ignore because even when I don't place her in party she still
complains and complains in my character's head whenever I make a decision.

Plus, playing the game as a Sith will just make her just telling me that "You have learned nothing."

The Jedis in the films were annoying but they were at least right unlike Kreia. Training Anakin was a mistake and attachment was forbidden because that was what that corrupted Anakin.
tl;dr you're supposed to question yourself, and the very fact you even came to that conclusion shows Kreia was right and it worked.

Also the problem is unlike IRL systems where you simply fall farther and farther, here you are actively rewarded for picking a side and choosing only those decisions as fanatically as possible. It's always been a thing with gaming morality systems in vidya, but here in Star Wars it's particularly atrocious, with your sometimes weird light/dark outcomes feeling increasingly detached from your own decisions, and now typing this out maybe that itself lends credence to her assertion "the force itself is aware" because now as you gain force points and become increasingly powerful, you also feel as if you've lost more and more personal freedom and autonomy in choices you make.

Seriously play a straight dark side character and it increasingly feels like being a self-aware Bioshock character who's not in control of his own character anymore, and I think that that was part of Kreia's point about the light side being like demonic possession itself just as much. Kinda like "only white magicks" Wiccans being subjects to ♥♥♥♥♥ just as much as black magic Satanists, in a sense I guess. I mean keep in mind, these are space wizards, and it's never really clearly explained the nature of the force, even with the Midachlorians bs because it is treated as almost a presence in this game than just the Qi lifeforce of the first movies.

Star Wars was a great film saga in of itself already, but the material surrounding it along with Kotor 2 made it a mono-myth!
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