Would the exile have been able to defeat the Sith triumvirate without the force?

[Kashui_32]

After you defeat Kreia on Malachor, she mentions that giving the exile the force again was a mistake as there is “no truth in it”. Which raises the question, did the exile even need the force to rebuild the Jedi order? Would it even be possible for the exile to not feel the force again considering how their connection works (they take the power from those they kill - it is a metaphor for levelling up in-game). I am still not sure whether the sudden death of the miners was responsible for the exile’s connection returning or if it was Kreia herself - as she mentions the exile may be feeling the force through her (her being Kreia).

[Ragnarök]

"Which raises the question, did the exile even need the force to rebuild the Jedi order?"

Obviously. Jedi are only Jedi because the Force exists but rebuilding the Jedi was never Kreia's goal. There'd have been no need.

As to the title question, no, probably not, but the destruction of the Triumvirate should have ideally come before the deafening/removal of the Force. In any case, Kreia recognised that ideological purity was a luxury she could not afford. Your enemies don't care about your ideals and if you want to achieve anything your hands are not going to remain clean. That's the sacrifice that you have to make. Even then, and this is the big point, whatever future you create is not going to be for you.

She regrets training the Exile again because Kreia views the state which the Exile existed to be paradise, likening her own actions to Christ resurrecting Lazarus. She'd been in first class and was now forced back into coach. Kreia didn't get what she originally aimed for, but she got something she didn't know she wanted instead. Still, had she been able to foresee what would happen, she wouldn't have retrained you at all. Hindsight is 20/20.

The Exile had to undergo those trials and tribulations to really understand the gravity of the decision she made at the end of K2. A Force-User with the power to end the Force's influence, knowing its full nature, would willingly choose to preserve it. The meek inherit the earth.

If the Exile lived as an exile for the rest of her life, she probably would never have awoken again. Kreia sought her out and I think it was mostly Kreia that was responsible. Ultimately, she taught the Exile to hear through the noise again.

[Kashui_32]

Originally posted by Ragnarök:

"Which raises the question, did the exile even need the force to rebuild the Jedi order?"

Obviously. Jedi are only Jedi because the Force exists but rebuilding the Jedi was never Kreia's goal.

Your point about the Jedi needing the force is true to an extent, but Kreia mentions on Telos to Atton: “Watch as one tries to hold a blaster, as they try to hold a lightsaber, and you will see nothing more than a woman – or a man. A child.” This is obviously in reference to a Jedi without the force. But on Malachor, when Traya is confronted by the exile’s companions who are force sensitive, she refers to them as “Children with Lightsabers” - which implies she sees most Jedi as incapable. She even tells Atton after this on Telos that even he is more capable than a Jedi because he cannot feel the force and most importantly, doesn’t rely on it.

On the topic of a non force-sensitive exile, I still think they would be able to win. Against Nihilus, the exile only wins because they are a wound in the force like him - and by feeding on that wound he is weakened. The exile would even win against Sion, as much like the game’s major conflict/message, their battle is about belief. Sion’s fight is the only one where the exile can “erode” his will through the use of persuasion.

Whilst Darth Nihilus is posed to be the major antagonist of the game like Malak was to Kotor 1 - a major threat to the galaxy, the real antagonist is the beliefs of the Old Jedi order and the Sith triumvirate: It was the beliefs of the Jedi that led to the arrogance/blindness of the lost masters (Kreia inverts their speech to the exile, inferring their speech meant to apply to you actually applies to them) and the hypocrisy of Atris. The game’s conflict against Nihilus was created by your actions at Malachor, and is what caused the Jedi order to almost die if it weren’t for you.

The Jedi order’s battle against the Sith (the only Sith who feed on the force) in Kotor 2 is a metaphor for their effect on the galaxy: by using the force and becoming so vaunted, they are able to wipe out and extinguish large amounts of life in the galaxy. It began in the Mandalorian wars, with them choosing not to participate despite the dire situation - but by then it was too late (this is best seen in the exile cutting themselves off from the force: “you felt hints of it on Dxun”). The exile was a symptom and the old Jedi order were the cause.

Even companions who are initially without the force are better than most Jedi: Mira has a very wise and pacifist view of life: she chooses not to kill because of how it would affect others and their families - essentially saying all life is connected. Atton was once a Jedi killer for the Sith, he feels a large amount of grief due to his empathy - how he could “her pain” as he killed his last target: all those emotions he faked kept “tumbling out”. Bao Dur feels a lot of Shame and responsibility for what happened at Malachor, Brianna is already a good fighter and is loyal. I haven’t played as a female exile yet, but from what I can tell Mical is smart.

I believe Kreia thought that if the force was gone, the Jedi would be less likely to become so arrogant and dogmatic because everyone would be equal, and that by destroying the force, the Sith Revan were fighting would be powerless and the new forceless Jedi could not be corrupted.

[Ragnarök]

Originally posted by King:

But on Malachor, when Traya is confronted by the exile’s companions who are force sensitive, she refers to them as “Children with Lightsabers” - which implies she sees most Jedi as incapable.

Does it? Or does she consider them children because they essentially have no will of their own and are following the Exile around like lost ducklings? I don't know if that's commentary on Jedi at all. Kreia never had a high opinion of any of them to begin with.

Atton was effective pre-force training because he was trained as an assassin that targeted essentially good people with a moral predisposition that prevented them from replying in kind. If all Jedi were as unscrupulous as Atton, they wouldn't be Jedi. Either way he was a guy who went after small potatoes. Could he have put his skills to use against beings like Sion? Nihilus? No, he was the tool of people like that. They made him what he was.

Originally posted by King:

On the topic of a non force-sensitive exile...

More than a battle of rhetoric occurred before either of those outcomes happened. Each fight had martial portion to it even after Nihilus opened by trying to feed on you. That's leaving Sion aside. Perhaps there would be another way to cajole them into sun-setting themselves outside combat but I highly doubt the stars would align so perfectly.

Originally posted by King:

I believe Kreia thought that if the force was gone, the Jedi would be less likely to become so arrogant and dogmatic because everyone would be equal..."

It wouldn't matter, the Jedi would cease to be actors in the galaxy if the Force was gone. Their philosophy isn't Machiavellian enough to retain their position of power in the Republic or anywhere else in the galaxy.

I think Kreia hated the Jedi Council mainly because they were hypocrites within their own framework, not even following the rules they laid out for themselves. She cared that as far as there was to be a group in the galaxy that was meant to serve the "good" it needed to actually do that. Their reasoning for trying to strip the Exile was selfishness masquerading as beneficence and exposed the council as frauds to that aim.