This game is the best Star Wars story written, it’s splendid, I cannot stop replaying it!

[Kashui_32]

I’ve already done 2 play throughs (1 light-side and 1 dark-side) and I’ve just started another one.

Kotor 2 is the best Star Wars game ever made!

[The Badman]

Aphex původně napsal:

Kreia being an author insert is no secret. He admitted as much.

"Kreia wants Jedi to be enablers to social darwinism "charity robs the people of the opportunity to improve themselfes"
You need to play the game more than once and make different choices. If you shoo the beggar away. She still nag you either way. You gain influence with her by concluding in the direction of I will consider my action or something similar. She fits the contrarian definition by always questioning your action like this. Or always playing devil's advocate or whatever. The point is she set herself up against you till the end and die for it. I'm double sure she would oppose your action if you have a grey response, the author pulled the same trick with Durance in pillar of eternity.

Thinking that this is criticism of the Jedi is incomplete. She criticise not only the Jedi but the Sith. And at the end reveal that she hates the Force as a whole. As it inevitably give rise to Jedi and Sith as the SW history proved. It's only time until one of the force sensitives commit the oopsies. The problem is getting rid of it is even more destructive and that's where the PC had to step in. At near death, she list examples what you could do in the future but also tell you "there is no dishonor in these choices" and "I only aks you to make them without regret". So she doesnt want you to treat the galaxy in any certain way. Just that you think about and put it in action.

The movie and material from George Lucas himself contradict what you think of "how the Jedi should be". Jedi didnt try to ascend humanity, they had to stay away from passion and attachment not because it help them become better but because it can lead them down a destructive path. It sure didnt help them make better decisions in the PT or in the games. And in the OTs, Yoda gave Luke an "unclouded by emotion" solution which he defied due to his filial piety, to the benefit of the galaxy. Luke then went on to create a "more human" Jedi order in the EU: allow marriage, encourage more involvement in local affair... He even had wife and kid. Who went on to spawn several generations. A decision which was neither great (there was still fallen Jedis) nor bad (they still preserved through crisis that would break previous Republic). George went on to say that Jedi should be allowed emotions. The key is they should know when to let go of them. Which this game elevate to letting go of belief/way of life when it leads one to ruin.

[The Badman]

And Kreia wouldnt want to be label as dark, light or anything inbetween lol. She 'ate the Force and what it creates including the ever elusive "grey Jedi", simple as.

[The Badman]

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

Having 100% Jedi doesnt mean being in a state of 100% light. Because that's just impossible due to the nature of human being. The Jedi themselves are in a constant battle against their worse nature. It's like fighting against your urge to evade tax as Jeff Bezos.

[Ragnarök]

Kreia was not a "Grey Jedi". She abhorred Fence-sitters. "Grey Jedi" are a meme. They don't exist in Star Wars. And no, she doesn't want Social Darwinism. She wants the beings that are Jedi and Sith to succeed by their own merit not by the unearned power of space-god (which is actually just an energy field generated by the collective of life). That is the long game she is running, and being a pragmatist not an ideologue means she gets to use all the tools available to bring that about.

Insofar as the Force has influence, she wants the Jedi (who claim to serve it) to not be hypocrites. Trying to strip the Exile of the Force on Dantooine proved to her that they were not fit for purpose. They were pragmatists and would have fallen eventually. You can't be a pragmatist while the Force exists and claim that you're actually the "good guy".

[Ragnarök]

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

i think you're ignoring the concept of "balance."

the light side is TOO pure. a fully light side galaxy is just as doomed as a fully dark side one.

i mean, that's why anakin was the chosen one. he eliminated the extremism of both the sith and jedi, bringing balance to the force.

furthermore, "social darwinism" is not simply the absence of jedi teachings, that's one of the core sith tenants. sharing power ("charity,") diminishes both yourself, and the one you gave to, as you only ever develop true power and strength through adversity.

Anakin was the Chosen One because he eliminated the Sith. The Jedi Council of the prequels were not an issue to balance in the Force. You can destroy a planet at the push of a button, you cannot do the same to save one. That's why the Jedi represent balance and the Sith are imbalance.

Taking on the burdens of another (charity) can strengthen you but it weakens the other. However it can also weaken you both if it distracts you from your ultimate purpose. What Kreia wants is for you to consider whether the power gained is worth the burden. Take on the burdens that are worth taking (when needed) and leave the ones that are solvable by the individual. Be discerning.

[Kashui_32]

Aphex původně napsal:

The Badman původně napsal:

...she herself strictly adhered to her contrarian stance. This led to her voluntary death at the hand of the Exile.

She wasn't really a contrarian it's just that there are no options for the pc to give "grey" answers. I assume this was deliberate in order to spew the "grey", more human Jedi meme. Kreia simply is a writer self insert arguing with the player. Kreia wants Jedi to be enablers to social darwinism "charity robs the people of the opportunity to improve themselfes" and while i agree to some extent (see Africa) imho it is not how the Jedi should be.

Jedi are superhuman monks. They aspire to ascend humanity by shedding fleshly desires and don't let emotions cloud their judgement. They represent Justicia, blind to influences, pure justice and carried out on behalf of the force itself (Angels). They should inspire people, people should look up to them and aspire to be them. Becoming more human only means watering down their beliefs, values and morality...becoming more human is becoming corrupted. When a jedi is corrupted he walks the path of the dark side and he failed to be a jedi, there is no grey. Kreia was just copeing because she couldn't live up to the Jedi standarts.

The Exile survived Malachor because of her humanity - she chose Life instead of the Force (something most Jedi/Sith could not do), if she did not she would’ve died due to their force bonds. Kreia mainly wants to change the Jedi order for the better, such as not relying on the force (as that weakened them, true strength comes from ones will, beliefs and the ability to adapt, which is seen in the lesson of strength). Giving up one’s humanity detaches them from Life, which is what the Jedi are meant to serve. Humanity is a result of Life - by waiting to evaluate the threat of the war the Masters dithered and let many people suffer which led to Revan and the Exile fighting for the republic, who were losing until the few Jedi joined. A Jedi’s humanity and self control is what makes them a “true” Jedi - such as Luke Skywalker (not only did he resist the dark side after using his rage, but he believed Vader could be redeemed). Kreia’s Social Darwinism is due to the Exile’s predicament and how they will need to destroy the triumvirate.

[Thundercracker]

Ragnarök původně napsal:

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

i think you're ignoring the concept of "balance."

the light side is TOO pure. a fully light side galaxy is just as doomed as a fully dark side one.

i mean, that's why anakin was the chosen one. he eliminated the extremism of both the sith and jedi, bringing balance to the force.

furthermore, "social darwinism" is not simply the absence of jedi teachings, that's one of the core sith tenants. sharing power ("charity,") diminishes both yourself, and the one you gave to, as you only ever develop true power and strength through adversity.

Anakin was the Chosen One because he eliminated the Sith. The Jedi Council of the prequels were not an issue to balance in the Force. You can destroy a planet at the push of a button, you cannot do the same to save one. That's why the Jedi represent balance and the Sith are imbalance.

Taking on the burdens of another (charity) can strengthen you but it weakens the other. However it can also weaken you both if it distracts you from your ultimate purpose. What Kreia wants is for you to consider whether the power gained is worth the burden. Take on the burdens that are worth taking (when needed) and leave the ones that are solvable by the individual. Be discerning.

oh yes, the PT jedi were very much an imbalance in the force, and had been so since the sith had been reduced to two.

you've got the dichotomy wrong, it's not "press a button to destroy a planet, press a button to save it," it's "change vs stagnation."

change brings conflict, and from conflict comes strength, according to the sith. the jedi do not want change, they wish to preserve the "balance" they achieved in the past to be preserved. the jedi are more than willing to let entire planets die, despite it making them sad, if they feel it preserves their "balance." both KOTORs demonstrate this. how many planets did the mandalorians destroy while the jedi did nothing? how many planets did revan destroy before the jedi finally started doing something? also, the jedi idolize the lack of emotion, "there is no emotion, there is peace." life cannot live without emotion.

furthermore, in order to destroy the sith, anakin had to become a sith. not pretend. not join up with hidden motives. in order to destroy the darkness, he had to fall from the light. in order to join the sith, anakin had to eradicate the jedi. in order to bring true balance to the force, anakin killed both the jedi and the sith.

you guys are now going on about how treya just hated force users, now. which side of the force was it that drew power from hate? which order had adherents who strove for the death of the force, and thus the death of all life?

just because the two sides of the force represent opposite extremes does not mean every member of both orders were paragons of their respective philosophies. i mean, anakin was a paragon of neither, despite being the literal son of the force. and in the end, he could not commit to "power over everything," and was redeemed.

the force is life, and life is not almost all light, with a few drops of dark scattered around. that's not balance. balance is light and dark in equal amounts. the jedi screwed the balance when they tried to stomp the dark side out of existence. and from that point on, they tried to preserve this "balance," which actually prevented the true balance.


this discussion has made me realize how similar the force is to 40k's warp. both power space wizards. both are reflections of all life. both are necessary for life. to the unfamiliar, there's basically 4 sides to the warp, and they are all dark. but there is still light in each side, and they are all necessary for life. nurgle is rot, but also new growth. khorn is both berserk rage and righteous anger. slaanesh is both pleasure and pain. tzeentch represents schemes, ambition, and backstabbing, but also hope.

[Ragnarök]

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

oh yes, the PT jedi were very much an imbalance in the force, and had been so since the sith had been reduced to two.

you've got the dichotomy wrong, it's not "press a button to destroy a planet, press a button to save it," it's "change vs stagnation."

change brings conflict, and from conflict comes strength, according to the sith. the jedi do not want change, they wish to preserve the "balance" they achieved in the past to be preserved. the jedi are more than willing to let entire planets die, despite it making them sad, if they feel it preserves their "balance." both KOTORs demonstrate this. how many planets did the mandalorians destroy while the jedi did nothing? how many planets did revan destroy before the jedi finally started doing something? also, the jedi idolize the lack of emotion, "there is no emotion, there is peace." life cannot live without emotion.

furthermore, in order to destroy the sith, anakin had to become a sith. not pretend. not join up with hidden motives. in order to destroy the darkness, he had to fall from the light. in order to join the sith, anakin had to eradicate the jedi. in order to bring true balance to the force, anakin killed both the jedi and the sith.

you guys are now going on about how treya just hated force users, now. which side of the force was it that drew power from hate? which order had adherents who strove for the death of the force, and thus the death of all life?

just because the two sides of the force represent opposite extremes does not mean every member of both orders were paragons of their respective philosophies. i mean, anakin was a paragon of neither, despite being the literal son of the force. and in the end, he could not commit to "power over everything," and was redeemed.

the force is life, and life is not almost all light, with a few drops of dark scattered around. that's not balance. balance is light and dark in equal amounts. the jedi screwed the balance when they tried to stomp the dark side out of existence. and from that point on, they tried to preserve this "balance," which actually prevented the true balance.

No, they very much were not. Balance in the Force is not a 50/50 split between Light and Dark. A "balanced" body is not half cancerous and half healthy. Balance is harmony. The Sith are the opposite of that. They create discord on a massive scale. That is why for balance to return, they have to be removed entirely. You fundamentally do not understand the nature of the Force or even what the purpose of the Jedi is.

"the force is life, and life is not almost all light, with a few drops of dark scattered around. that's not balance."

That is literally what it is. What you are calling "light" is a state of natural harmony. That is the balance Jedi seek to serve. The spots you describe as "drops of dark" are nexuses such as the Cave on Degobah that Yoda built his house by. A place that feels unnaturally wrong. They don't occur on their own.

"the jedi are more than willing to let entire planets die, despite it making them sad, if they feel it preserves their "balance." both KOTORs demonstrate this. how many planets did the mandalorians destroy while the jedi did nothing? how many planets did revan destroy before the jedi finally started doing something?"

Zero. Devastation does not equal obliteration. They failed their purpose on the Mandalorians because they were afraid, but even so, the Force was capable of coping. The Mandalorians were after spoils and proving martial prowess and most importantly were not Force Users. The Jedi's failings here had nothing to do with preserving balance, nor is it an indictment on that aim. They acted immediately on Revan and Malak so I don't know why that bears mentioning.

"which order had adherents who strove for the death of the force, and thus the death of all life?"

The Force is an energy field created by all living things. The chicken comes before the egg. Removing a singular survival mechanism does not end life. Force Users cease to exist in her utopia, thus the need for such a survival mechanism diminishes. I won't go into why Kreia wants this, it's been covered.

[Thundercracker]

Ragnarök původně napsal:

No, they very much were not. Balance in the Force is not a 50/50 split between Light and Dark. A "balanced" body is not half cancerous and half healthy. Balance is harmony. The Sith are the opposite of that. They create discord on a massive scale. That is why for balance to return, they have to be removed entirely. You fundamentally do not understand the nature of the Force or even what the purpose of the Jedi is.

"the force is life, and life is not almost all light, with a few drops of dark scattered around. that's not balance."

That is literally what it is. What you are calling "light" is a state of natural harmony. That is the balance Jedi seek to serve. The spots you describe as "drops of dark" are nexuses such as the Cave on Degobah that Yoda built his house by. A place that feels unnaturally wrong. They don't occur on their own.

"the jedi are more than willing to let entire planets die, despite it making them sad, if they feel it preserves their "balance." both KOTORs demonstrate this. how many planets did the mandalorians destroy while the jedi did nothing? how many planets did revan destroy before the jedi finally started doing something?"

Zero. Devastation does not equal obliteration. They failed their purpose on the Mandalorians because they were afraid, but even so, the Force was capable of coping. The Mandalorians were after spoils and proving martial prowess and most importantly were not Force Users. The Jedi's failings here had nothing to do with preserving balance, nor is it an indictment on that aim. They acted immediately on Revan and Malak so I don't know why that bears mentioning.

"which order had adherents who strove for the death of the force, and thus the death of all life?"

The Force is an energy field created by all living things. The chicken comes before the egg. Removing a singular survival mechanism does not end life. Force Users cease to exist in her utopia, thus the need for such a survival mechanism diminishes. I won't go into why Kreia wants this, it's been covered.

mistake 1, the dark side is not cancer. it is passion. harmony with no conflict is stagnation. there is no growth, no change. without conflict, there is no evolution. with no discord, there are no obstacles to surpass, no reason to strive to be greater than you are. light vs dark is not so simple a breakdown as good vs evil, or selfishness vs altruism. bad people do good things, and good people can do terrible things.

you're also forgetting that the jedi suppress ALL emotion. "there is no emotion, there is peace." again, look at anakin. "love" is a good emotion, but it's what caused him to fall. because it is passion, uncontrolled emotion. anakin slaughtered children for the love of his wife.

so with that in mind, i think i have a fairly good handle on the concepts of the force, and what the jedi stand for. i mean, the stagnation of the jedi is a major plot point for all three PT movies.

"harmony" is not a natural state. there is harmony in a natural state, but there is always going to be some sort of conflict, unless of course you stagnate into oblivion. and if the jedi way is so "natural," why did it take only a single manipulator to destroy it all? if they had gotten to that point, they would have crumbled sooner or later, anyway... sith or no sith.

afraid? what was it yoda said? "fear leads to anger...." this only shows that the jedi, overall, were not paragons of the light. with few individual exceptions, they all had some touch of the dark side in their beings. obi wan is a good example. you can see his passion in many places in both the PT and ep 4. not the least that time he cut that dude's hand off in the cantina. there were many ways for him to deal with that situation that did not involve pulling a lightsaber, and cutting someone's hand off. he just had even shown one off on the stormtroopers outside.

question: tarsis was "destroyed," was it not? furthermore, devastation is worse than outright destruction. those who survive are going to become nexuses of the dark side, as that sort of devastation breeds passionate hate. as for revan, the jedi did act.... too late, after revan already had turned and come back from the outer rim with a sith army. the jedi were just fine letting revan and co go off and fight the war, against their orders. just as they were fine with erasing the being that was revan, and replacing him with a weapon of their own design.

the weapon used on visas' homeworld killed the planet and everything on it by snuffing out the force. it's not "chicken and egg" here. there is no life without the force, there is no force without life. it's like electricity and magnetism. without one, there is no other. they are just different expressions of the same thing.

[Ragnarök]

Yes, the Dark side is cancer. The Dark Side is not passion. It's corruption. Conflict exists in nature in a state of balance a.k.a. harmony. That is not what the DS is. This is not about the elimination of entropic forces in their entirety, it is about the elimination of destructive forces that go well beyond the pale of what life can cope with.

Anakin did not slaughter children because of love. He did it over fear of loss. He didn't care about Padme and all the people like her who would suffer under the tyranny of Palpatine. He couldn't stand the feeling of personal loss, so much that upon embracing the Dark Side he was caught in a feedback loop and wound up strangling her to death so that she wouldn't "remove herself" from him. Entirely selfish, and he couldn't even see it because the Dark Side had corrupted him.

Jedi suppress emotion because that is the reality of the game they're playing. They deny it as much as they can from factoring into their decision-making and it is wise to do so. Emotion is not inherently evil, but it often leads to it.

No, the stagnation of the Jedi is not a major plot point in any of the three prequels. That is something the fedora-tipping fanbase erroneously projected onto them because "organised religion bad" At no point in any of the prequels can the Jedi ever be considered the moral equivalent of the Sith. It's a sub-room temperature IQ take.

The Jedi were never destroyed. Palpatine failed utterly. Luke was the direct continuance of the old Jedi Order.

The Jedi failing to do something shows that they are human and fallible not that the idea of denying your passions is wrong.

Using Obi-Wan's actions with Ponda Baba as an example of passion is incredibly stupid. A wanted murderer lashed out against Luke in a random act of violence for merely existing. Were it not for Obi-Wan's near-automatic reaction he would likely have died. This is after Obi-Wan tried to reason with the assailant. Passion did not factor into the equation.

Taris was devastated. Devastation is not worse than outright destruction. Katarr was obliterated by Nihilus sucking the life-force out of the entire planet. Nature couldn't recover to mitigate the damage because there was no nature left. Same goes for the loss of Alderaan. Feeding on life to create wounds was not Kreia's plan. It's not sustainable.

Star Wars is a story of good vs. evil. Jedi good. Sith bad. Simple as. Were it not so, the side you picked wouldn't matter at all.

[Kashui_32]

“Balance” in Star Wars simply means controlling both the Light and Dark sides of the force - these are the two parts that form the Force. The Sith are not the Dark side and the Jedi are not the light side - they are merely agents of them. “Balance” merely means accepting both as a part of the force - the PT Jedi failed doing this as they hid all Dark Side artefacts and teachings in the Temple’s restricted section and never attempted to reason or redeem with any Dark Jedi. In the best case scenario, Force users would attempt to balance the Light and Dark within them and overcome their flaws - an example being Anakin’s fear of loss which led to the Dark Side. There would only be one Force sensitive order - the Jedi and Sith are not so different as they both seek supremacy and destruction of the other in the galaxy, the Sith were born out of a Civil war in the Jedi order and their hate of them is a result of being cast out.

[Ragnarök]

Both exist as part of the Force. One is to be learned the other is to be rejected if you want to retain your humanity.

"the Jedi and Sith are not so different as they both seek supremacy and destruction of the other in the galaxy, the Sith were born out of a Civil war in the Jedi order and their hate of them is a result of being cast out."

This is false. The Jedi exiled the Dark Jedi after the former lost. They could have wiped them out. Instead, they showed mercy, spared them and hoped time would confer contrition. A better question would be why were they fighting in the first place. The answer, of course, is because the Dark Jedi were doing malevolent things and attempting to subvert the natural order with sorcery and alchemy. The Jedi, being good, could not claim to be such if they were permissive of that sort of evil within their order.

Irredeemable evil exists in Star Wars. The idea that everyone can be redeemed if you just try is pie in the sky. You cannot reason with the unreasonable. Balance does not require redemption anyway, it requires Dark Side adherents to be eliminated. The rest is icing.

Did Obi-Wan fail because he killed Maul? Did Anakin fail because he threw Palpatine down an energy shaft? Of course not.

[Thundercracker]

Ragnarök původně napsal:

Yes, the Dark side is cancer. The Dark Side is not passion. It's corruption. Conflict exists in nature in a state of balance a.k.a. harmony. That is not what the DS is. This is not about the elimination of entropic forces in their entirety, it is about the elimination of destructive forces that go well beyond the pale of what life can cope with.

you are blatantly incorrect. for one, read the sith code. for two, conflict exists in nature because nature represents both sides of the force. the dark side is just as much a part of the natural order as the light, which is why the jedi imbalanced it by constantly trying to snuff the dark side out.

Ragnarök původně napsal:

Anakin did not slaughter children because of love. He did it over fear of loss.

and where did the fear come from? there would be no fear of loss without love, which is one of the reasons the jedi have so famously been against love. again, "there is NO emotion..."

Ragnarök původně napsal:

He didn't care about Padme and all the people like her who would suffer under the tyranny of Palpatine. He couldn't stand the feeling of personal loss, so much that upon embracing the Dark Side he was caught in a feedback loop and wound up strangling her to death so that she wouldn't "remove herself" from him. Entirely selfish, and he couldn't even see it because the Dark Side had corrupted him.

that is one way you can look at it, if you ignore the involvement of a master manipulator. but again, there can be no loss without love. the fact that anakin's love was twisted and poisoned by palpatine is of little matter, it existed and was the ultimate cause of his downfall. just as anakin's love of his son was enough for him to break free of palpatine's influence and redeem himself.

Ragnarök původně napsal:

Jedi suppress emotion because that is the reality of the game they're playing. They deny it as much as they can from factoring into their decision-making and it is wise to do so. Emotion is not inherently evil, but it often leads to it.

because PASSION is the dark side. only by becoming completely dispassionate can you be a paragon of the light.

Ragnarök původně napsal:

No, the stagnation of the Jedi is not a major plot point in any of the three prequels. That is something the fedora-tipping fanbase erroneously projected onto them because "organised religion bad" At no point in any of the prequels can the Jedi ever be considered the moral equivalent of the Sith. It's a sub-room temperature IQ take.

who said anything about moral equivalence? the force, both sides of it, does not care about morals. but only a fool would argue that the stagnation of the jedi didnt basically open the door for palpatine, and let him destroy a republic that had existed for 25,000 years fully within a single lifetime.

Ragnarök původně napsal:

The Jedi were never destroyed. Palpatine failed utterly. Luke was the direct continuance of the old Jedi Order.

the jedi were destroyed with order 66. they ceased to exist as an organization. all but a scattered handful of them were killed. luke is not a direct continuation as he never was a padawan, he did not complete his training, and his only real access to jedi teachings and traditions were force ghosts. he's no more a direct continuation of the order as modern day wiccans are direct continuations of the old folk religions.

Ragnarök původně napsal:

The Jedi failing to do something shows that they are human and fallible not that the idea of denying your passions is wrong.

but not all jedi were human. a lot of the really famous and powerful ones were nonhuman. take yoda, possibly the greatest of the jedi. even he, in the novelizations, opines that the inflexibility of the jedi, their rigid adherence to their code and traditions was the door they kept open for the sith.

Ragnarök původně napsal:

Using Obi-Wan's actions with Ponda Baba as an example of passion is incredibly stupid. A wanted murderer lashed out against Luke in a random act of violence for merely existing. Were it not for Obi-Wan's near-automatic reaction he would likely have died. This is after Obi-Wan tried to reason with the assailant. Passion did not factor into the equation.

"you dont want to sell me death sticks, you want to go home and rethink your like." as if obi wan could not feel the violent intent of ponda. he could have ended the altercation before it began. (the real reason for this, of course, is that lucas wanted a demo of a lightsaber at work, and the actual specifics of the jedi had not even been thought of at that time.)

Ragnarök původně napsal:

Taris was devastated. Devastation is not worse than outright destruction. Katarr was obliterated by Nihilus sucking the life-force out of the entire planet. Nature couldn't recover to mitigate the damage because there was no nature left. Same goes for the loss of Alderaan. Feeding on life to create wounds was not Kreia's plan. It's not sustainable.

you seem to forget who it was who trained and inducted in nihilus as a sith.

Ragnarök původně napsal:

Star Wars is a story of good vs. evil. Jedi good. Sith bad. Simple as. Were it not so, the side you picked wouldn't matter at all.

in the OT, you have an argument. with all the fiction that's come after, the ground you stand on is eroded away.

[Ragnarök]

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

you are blatantly incorrect. for one, read the sith code. for two, conflict exists in nature because nature represents both sides of the force. the dark side is just as much a part of the natural order as the light, which is why the jedi imbalanced it by constantly trying to snuff the dark side out.

Wrong. The Sith code is incorrect, what it claims is irrelevant. The DS is part of the natural order insofar as it exists as corruption. That they both exist in nature is balance. What I was referring to is the adherence to the Dark Side among Force Sensitives. This creates imbalance in the Force. Jedi are copper. The Sith are lead. Put them on a scale in equal measure and they do not equal each other. The latter create imbalance. The Jedi of the PT did nothing to try and "snuff out" the DS. Such a thing isn't even possible in the first place.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

and where did the fear come from? there would be no fear of loss without love, which is one of the reasons the jedi have so famously been against love. again, "there is NO emotion..."

Yes, there would. Fear is a primal emotion linked first to self-preservation. Anakin feared the loss of control, the loss of a possession and the pain that would follow. He was never at risk of losing Padme's love. He wouldn't have been at risk of anything at all had he listened to his masters who knew better. Jedi are against romantic love because in their line of work it often leads to fear. They are correct to shun it because of the far more dire consequence that fear has on them due to their nature. These are hard lessons that were learned over the course of thousands of years. They didn't just appear in a vacuum.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

that is one way you can look at it, if you ignore the involvement of a master manipulator. but again, there can be no loss without love. the fact that anakin's love was twisted and poisoned by palpatine is of little matter, it existed and was the ultimate cause of his downfall. just as anakin's love of his son was enough for him to break free of palpatine's influence and redeem himself.

The buck stops with Anakin. Choices have consequences. Storge and Eros are two different things. One is selfless the other is selfish. The Jedi are for the former, as well as the wider love for mankind, and caution against the latter. Anakin sacrificed himself so another could live. This redeemed him. "The Jedi are not allowed to love?" See Anakin's response.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

who said anything about moral equivalence? the force, both sides of it, does not care about morals. but only a fool would argue that the stagnation of the jedi didnt basically open the door for palpatine, and let him destroy a republic that had existed for 25,000 years fully within a single lifetime.

Stop being dishonest. That is the crux of your argument. It's absolutely concerned with morality, it's the moral arbiter. That is why Vader was saying the Force was "With him." when he sensed Obi-Wan in ANH, which doesn't bear mentioning unless it has a will. This is why Jedi can become spirits that manifest wherever they please and Sith can only become ghosts bound to their tombs in hells of their own making. This is why the Sith ALWAYS lose. There is no moral relativity in Star Wars as long as the Force exists.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

the jedi were destroyed with order 66. they ceased to exist as an organization. all but a scattered handful of them were killed. luke is not a direct continuation as he never was a padawan, he did not complete his training, and his only real access to jedi teachings and traditions were force ghosts. he's no more a direct continuation of the order as modern day wiccans are direct continuations of the old folk religions.

Again dishonesty. Luke was trained by Obi-Wan and Yoda. The rest he learned through trials against Vader. The movie is called "Return of the Jedi" Not "Rebirth of the Jedi". His training was complete when he "conquered Vader". "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." It was a direct lineage.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

but not all jedi were human.

Semantics. Do I really need to explain what I mean by humanity? Because I'm not going to.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

"you dont want to sell me death sticks, you want to go home and rethink your like." as if obi wan could not feel the violent intent of ponda. he could have ended the altercation before it began. (the real reason for this, of course, is that lucas wanted a demo of a lightsaber at work, and the actual specifics of the jedi had not even been thought of at that time.)

No, he couldn't have. Stop pretending Mind Trick will work in every situation.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

you seem to forget who it was who trained and inducted in nihilus as a sith.

You seem to forget that feeding on the Force is not an ability that one can learn through training. He did it instinctively. Kreia came long after that and offered him a purpose which he ultimately rejected. No one knows where Nihilus came from, just that he was on Malachor V when the MSG went off.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

in the OT, you have an argument. with all the fiction that's come after, the ground you stand on is eroded away.

https://youtu.be/wiImoO5QkcA?t=55

Jedi Good. Sith Bad. It has ever been thus. All else is wish-fulfilment and cope.

[Kashui_32]

Ragnarök původně napsal:

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

you are blatantly incorrect. for one, read the sith code. for two, conflict exists in nature because nature represents both sides of the force. the dark side is just as much a part of the natural order as the light, which is why the jedi imbalanced it by constantly trying to snuff the dark side out.

Wrong. The Sith code is incorrect, what it claims is irrelevant. The DS is part of the natural order insofar as it exists as corruption. That they both exist in nature is balance. What I was referring to is the adherence to the Dark Side among Force Sensitives. This creates imbalance in the Force. Jedi are copper. The Sith are lead. Put them on a scale in equal measure and they do not equal each other. The latter create imbalance. The Jedi of the PT did nothing to try and "snuff out" the DS. Such a thing isn't even possible in the first place.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

and where did the fear come from? there would be no fear of loss without love, which is one of the reasons the jedi have so famously been against love. again, "there is NO emotion..."

Yes, there would. Fear is a primal emotion linked first to self-preservation. Anakin feared the loss of control, the loss of a possession and the pain that would follow. He was never at risk of losing Padme's love. He wouldn't have been at risk of anything at all had he listened to his masters who knew better. Jedi are against romantic love because in their line of work it often leads to fear. They are correct to shun it because of the far more dire consequence that fear has on them due to their nature. These are hard lessons that were learned over the course of thousands of years. They didn't just appear in a vacuum.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

that is one way you can look at it, if you ignore the involvement of a master manipulator. but again, there can be no loss without love. the fact that anakin's love was twisted and poisoned by palpatine is of little matter, it existed and was the ultimate cause of his downfall. just as anakin's love of his son was enough for him to break free of palpatine's influence and redeem himself.

The buck stops with Anakin. Choices have consequences. Storge and Eros are two different things. One is selfless the other is selfish. The Jedi are for the former, as well as the wider love for mankind, and caution against the latter. Anakin sacrificed himself so another could live. This redeemed him. "The Jedi are not allowed to love?" See Anakin's response.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

who said anything about moral equivalence? the force, both sides of it, does not care about morals. but only a fool would argue that the stagnation of the jedi didnt basically open the door for palpatine, and let him destroy a republic that had existed for 25,000 years fully within a single lifetime.

Stop being dishonest. That is the crux of your argument. It's absolutely concerned with morality, it's the moral arbiter. That is why Vader was saying the Force was "With him." when he sensed Obi-Wan in ANH, which doesn't bear mentioning unless it has a will. This is why Jedi can become spirits that manifest wherever they please and Sith can only become ghosts bound to their tombs in hells of their own making. This is why the Sith ALWAYS lose. There is no moral relativity in Star Wars as long as the Force exists.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

the jedi were destroyed with order 66. they ceased to exist as an organization. all but a scattered handful of them were killed. luke is not a direct continuation as he never was a padawan, he did not complete his training, and his only real access to jedi teachings and traditions were force ghosts. he's no more a direct continuation of the order as modern day wiccans are direct continuations of the old folk religions.

Again dishonesty. Luke was trained by Obi-Wan and Yoda. The rest he learned through trials against Vader. The movie is called "Return of the Jedi" Not "Rebirth of the Jedi". His training was complete when he "conquered Vader". "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." It was a direct lineage.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

but not all jedi were human.

Semantics. Do I really need to explain what I mean by humanity? Because I'm not going to.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

"you dont want to sell me death sticks, you want to go home and rethink your like." as if obi wan could not feel the violent intent of ponda. he could have ended the altercation before it began. (the real reason for this, of course, is that lucas wanted a demo of a lightsaber at work, and the actual specifics of the jedi had not even been thought of at that time.)

No, he couldn't have. Stop pretending Mind Trick will work in every situation.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

you seem to forget who it was who trained and inducted in nihilus as a sith.

You seem to forget that feeding on the Force is not an ability that one can learn through training. He did it instinctively. Kreia came long after that and offered him a purpose which he ultimately rejected. No one knows where Nihilus came from, just that he was on Malachor V when the MSG went off.

Terrorsaur původně napsal:

in the OT, you have an argument. with all the fiction that's come after, the ground you stand on is eroded away.

https://youtu.be/wiImoO5QkcA?t=55

Jedi Good. Sith Bad. It has ever been thus. All else is wish-fulfilment and cope.

https://medium.com/star-wars-club-ucsd/the-failure-of-the-failure-of-the-grey-jedi-e09c7642137e