Anyone else tired of looter shooters and ARPGs being treated like endless cash flows in our modern era?

[Mike]

So I'm a pretty big fan of ARPGs and looter shooters in general so much so that I have tried/played most of them and I've had my eye on this game since its announcement but I can't be the only one who just wants a premium, non-F2P, non-P2W looter shooter that is a full package with a meaty campaign/story, decent endgame content, build/gameplay depth,....etc, can I?

Like even with the hate Outriders got on launch, I would rather more games like that, or the borderlands series (1-3) then this constant flow of soulless F2P cash shop slop. I would hold my hope for the next Borderlands game but given the devs are more worried about pushing their message, then listening to the fans that series has fallen as well.

The game looks ok, but man every time I see a new looter shooter my ears perk up and every time iots revealed to be F2P with the forced MTX cosmetic garbage, I just sigh.......and lose most interest I had in the game.

Sorry for the slight rant post, as I mean no disrespect to the devs, but I feel this sub genre has been treated very badly by companies that just want to milk cash from whales, and keep as many players addicted with their dopamine riddled game systems as possible.

[Mike]

Автор сообщения: Hollow-Enigma

I don't really think the craze has discouraged devs to jump ship. I think it is considerably more costly and risky to develop a live service title, there is a lot more that goes into that one. + when you look at the history of actual successful ones, its not an encouraging sight. The studios that have been producing quality looters also haven't tried to make the pivot into that territory and are still making them. So i don't believe the one is killing the other.

Personally i am a fan of both as you can probably tell by my profile. I don't prefer one over the other each has their ups and downs, the consistency of the live service ones often keep me engaged till the next stand-alone title comes out.

I agree with your first sentiment in that its much more risky to go for a live service looter shooter (especially F2P) then it is just making a premium title and if it sales well then more content can be created for it that way (like BL2, Grim Dawn, Titan Quest, ....etc).

I feel in 2024 with the already negative stigma F2P looter shooters have, you just gambling with your money by going that route, but at the end of the day I'm no Nexxon, nor am I a super knowledgeable when it comes to investments and the decisions that happen around them.

Its just weird to me that so many of these companies/devs are taking more risk with this F2P live service stuff then not and people don't think about the fact there are only so many people in the world who will play one game for year and years on end. There may be some corssover of players but odds are if a person is a hardcore Destiny player, Warframe player, division player,...etc they will not easily jump ship to a completely new looter until is PROVEN its sustainability.

As easy as it is to try as F2P game, its even easier to drop it and never touch it again if players are not satisfied regarding the quality or live service nature of the game.

[Hollow-Enigma]

As much as a risk it is, it is also possible for it to succeed and piggyback the company into a state of perpetual stability, but then again, you can say the same of a good franchise. Honestly not all that different when you really think about it. Live services are just completely connected instead of separated installments.

I do think its worth giving F2P titles a shot though, you never really say you truly dislike something if you have not actively engaged with something and given it a proper spin.

[AFC_HIGHBURY]

Автор сообщения: Mike

Автор сообщения: AFC_HIGHBURY

Ive just had a look at their forum and it still has bugs present from years back, that isn't quality by any means, specially not a product that one pays for. Yeh you may like the gameplay as I did the little i played but you can't ignore what is.

Word on Warframe, their model was really good and I like the grind so I didn't put money in untill I unlocked all frames and primes at the time. More f2p games should take their model not sure if anythings changed over the last year though as I haven't logged in some time. I would happily bullet jump over and over cracking relics (not in spy missions though they sucked even with good frames lol) think farming for ivara made me hate them.

That is kind of anecdotal evidence that you can apply to 99% of games because people will always find and issue with something lol. I could go on the Warframe, POE, Borderlands 2, Destiny 2, Division 2,....etc forums and find a handful of consumer complaints but that is not really "evidence" that a product is of a certain quality or not.

As for Warframe like I've stated from the Beginning I personally will onlt play games that I actually pay for, I don't like F2P models no matter how "generous" they may be. My argument since the beginning is that this F2P craze has taken over the looter shooter genre to the point that no studio wants to "risk" releasing a premium looter shooter because modern audiences are already brain washed to expect "endless" live service style content for games like this.

This game may end up being great but to me no F2P game will ever feel as special as a paid for premium title that respects my time as a player and my money investment.

Yeh people do find issues in all games but them issues are patched and that would indicate a certain quality regardless of if it's f2p or b2p. gamings changed and that's your choice to not want to play f2p games, but you also are missing out on a few good ones.

[Mike]

Автор сообщения: AFC_HIGHBURY

Автор сообщения: Mike

That is kind of anecdotal evidence that you can apply to 99% of games because people will always find and issue with something lol. I could go on the Warframe, POE, Borderlands 2, Destiny 2, Division 2,....etc forums and find a handful of consumer complaints but that is not really "evidence" that a product is of a certain quality or not.

As for Warframe like I've stated from the Beginning I personally will onlt play games that I actually pay for, I don't like F2P models no matter how "generous" they may be. My argument since the beginning is that this F2P craze has taken over the looter shooter genre to the point that no studio wants to "risk" releasing a premium looter shooter because modern audiences are already brain washed to expect "endless" live service style content for games like this.

This game may end up being great but to me no F2P game will ever feel as special as a paid for premium title that respects my time as a player and my money investment.

Yeh people do find issues in all games but them issues are patched and that would indicate a certain quality regardless of if it's f2p or b2p. gamings changed and that's your choice to not want to play f2p games, but you also are missing out on a few good ones.

Nah, I don't need corporations dangling a carrot in front of me, until I give in to pay outrageous prices for cosmetic skins and things of that nature. There is not a single F2P title that I have either tried or know about in terms of popularity, that I regret not playing. I'm a HUGE diablo-like ARPG fan and even something like the amazing look POE2 will not get my time because I can't respect a company that does not respect my time as a player or my money/support.

Imo F2P games are the worst thing to happen to the AAA gaming industry, because when you release a game for "free" you HAVE to nickle and dimes customers to get that money flowing, but if you just release a fun looter shooter with a reasonable budget, and at a reasonable price you can make that money back and more to then invest in more content for the players that enjoy your game.

To me personally there is ZERO benefit to me playing a F2P looter shooter to a paid premuim one, which is why to this day I don't believe there has been a looter shooter that has achieved what the Borderlands series has (kind of fell off though which is sad).

If others want to play F2P games for the rest of their life, more power to them, but I can't support games like that personally. I would rather replay 12 year old games, or more recent looters like Nioh 1-2, Strangers Of paradise,...etc which imo have much deeper gameplay systems then most F2P games, while also feeding those players who love to grind to their hearts content.

[AFC_HIGHBURY]

Автор сообщения: Mike

Автор сообщения: AFC_HIGHBURY

Yeh people do find issues in all games but them issues are patched and that would indicate a certain quality regardless of if it's f2p or b2p. gamings changed and that's your choice to not want to play f2p games, but you also are missing out on a few good ones.

Nah, I don't need corporations dangling a carrot in front of me, until I give in to pay outrageous process for cosmetic skins and things if that nature. There is not a single F2P title that I have either tried or know about in terms of popularity, that I regret not playing. I'm a HUGE diablo-like ARPG fan and even something like the amazing look POE2 will not get my time because I can't respect a company that does not respect my time as a player or my money/support.

Imo F2P games are the worst thing to happen to the AAA gaming industry, because when you release a game for "free" you HAVE to nickle and dimes customers to get that money flowing, but if you just release a fun looter shooter with a reasonable budget, and at a reasonable price you can make that money back and more to then invest in more content for the players that enjoy your game.

To me personally there is ZERO benefit to me playing a F2P looter shooter to a paid premuim one, which is why to this day I don't believe there has been a looter shooter that has achieved what the Borderlands series has (kind of fell off though which is sad).

If others want to play F2P games for the rest of their life, more power to them, but I can't support games like that personally. I would rather replay 12 year old games, or more recent looters like Nioh 1-2, Strangers Of paradise,...etc which imo have much deeper gameplay systems, while also feeding those players who love to grind to their hearts content.

I mean the benefit in playing any game is getting enjoyment out of it, how it was produced or price/ lack of should have very little to do with it, Remember the days when AAA games didn't have dlc's and actually felt complete? F2p games had nothing to do with that. It's just the next step of an evolving industry.

[Hollow-Enigma]

Автор сообщения: Mike

Автор сообщения: AFC_HIGHBURY

Yeh people do find issues in all games but them issues are patched and that would indicate a certain quality regardless of if it's f2p or b2p. gamings changed and that's your choice to not want to play f2p games, but you also are missing out on a few good ones.

Nah, I don't need corporations dangling a carrot in front of me, until I give in to pay outrageous prices for cosmetic skins and things of that nature. There is not a single F2P title that I have either tried or know about in terms of popularity, that I regret not playing. I'm a HUGE diablo-like ARPG fan and even something like the amazing look POE2 will not get my time because I can't respect a company that does not respect my time as a player or my money/support.

Imo F2P games are the worst thing to happen to the AAA gaming industry, because when you release a game for "free" you HAVE to nickle and dimes customers to get that money flowing, but if you just release a fun looter shooter with a reasonable budget, and at a reasonable price you can make that money back and more to then invest in more content for the players that enjoy your game.

To me personally there is ZERO benefit to me playing a F2P looter shooter to a paid premuim one, which is why to this day I don't believe there has been a looter shooter that has achieved what the Borderlands series has (kind of fell off though which is sad).

If others want to play F2P games for the rest of their life, more power to them, but I can't support games like that personally. I would rather replay 12 year old games, or more recent looters like Nioh 1-2, Strangers Of paradise,...etc which imo have much deeper gameplay systems then most F2P games, while also feeding those players who love to grind to their hearts content.

That's exactly my point though, the good titles do not make you feel like you are wasting your time nor make you feel the need to spend money. They want you to first a foremost enjoy the game. And its not some sort of life long commitment, play whenever you feel like it like any other game.

[Mike]

Автор сообщения: AFC_HIGHBURY

Автор сообщения: Mike

Nah, I don't need corporations dangling a carrot in front of me, until I give in to pay outrageous process for cosmetic skins and things if that nature. There is not a single F2P title that I have either tried or know about in terms of popularity, that I regret not playing. I'm a HUGE diablo-like ARPG fan and even something like the amazing look POE2 will not get my time because I can't respect a company that does not respect my time as a player or my money/support.

Imo F2P games are the worst thing to happen to the AAA gaming industry, because when you release a game for "free" you HAVE to nickle and dimes customers to get that money flowing, but if you just release a fun looter shooter with a reasonable budget, and at a reasonable price you can make that money back and more to then invest in more content for the players that enjoy your game.

To me personally there is ZERO benefit to me playing a F2P looter shooter to a paid premuim one, which is why to this day I don't believe there has been a looter shooter that has achieved what the Borderlands series has (kind of fell off though which is sad).

If others want to play F2P games for the rest of their life, more power to them, but I can't support games like that personally. I would rather replay 12 year old games, or more recent looters like Nioh 1-2, Strangers Of paradise,...etc which imo have much deeper gameplay systems, while also feeding those players who love to grind to their hearts content.

I mean the benefit in playing any game is getting enjoyment out of it, how it was produced or price/ lack of should have very little to do with it, Remember the days when AAA games didn't have dlc's and actually felt complete? F2p games had nothing to do with that. It's just the next step of an evolving industry.

I disagree once again. The people who decide to make a game F2P have 2 things in mind: 1. How are we going to keep players addicted, 2. how are we going to get as much profit for as little effort as possible. Notice these things are ALL in the benefit of the corporation and not the actual players.

My attitude of F2P games would be completely different if F2P games were invented to give players who may not have the money for premium games a chance to play something with as little money investment as possible, but that is not the case. F2P is pretty much the "casino" mentality but slapped on games, and people eat it up like just like that person who wasted thousands of dollars at the slot machine and has nothing to show for it. There is a reason why F2P games on average are more costly to your average player then one time premium titles you pay for once and maybe an expansion or 2.

I mean F2P games are a thing ONLY because of money, and people see "free" in the title and that is what gets them into the door of the most predatory monetary schemes in the industry. I'll put it this way, F2P live service games are more psychological in nature, then devs/companies doing it for the good of players who don't have a lot of money to spend on games. Its all about chasing that carrot and milking that money.

There is no doubt many of these F2P games are "fun" but I don't like at them on the surface level I look at them for the reason they are made.

The best part about premium looters that are not F2P is that you can still get those dopamine highs from good itemization and loot drops, but without that real money gambling and real money attachment to the systems. The reason why something like Diablo 2 is still played to this day is because it has those perfect "just one more run" flows, while also respecting the players time and money investment, where the player gets all of the benefit and none of the negatives attached.

Once again if people want to only player F2P games, thats their choice and I don't care, but when you go deeper then "this game is fun though" you will realize all F2P games are predatory in nature and have been from the start.

[Moga CMDR]

Автор сообщения: AFC_HIGHBURY

I mean the benefit in playing any game is getting enjoyment out of it, how it was produced or price/ lack of should have very little to do with it...It's just the next step of an evolving industry.

Someone who gets it.

It's unfortunate how many people waste so much time missing the point.

Personally, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with someone who only sees doom, and lives in a world full of FUD. They only see evil in everything, and anything you say will only convince them more.

[Mike]

Автор сообщения: Moga CMDR

Автор сообщения: AFC_HIGHBURY

I mean the benefit in playing any game is getting enjoyment out of it, how it was produced or price/ lack of should have very little to do with it...It's just the next step of an evolving industry.

Someone who gets it.

It's unfortunate how many people waste so much time missing the point.

I personally can't have enjoyment when I know 99% of F2P are predatory in nature. Once again that view is SURFACE level, but below the layers its much more sinister then making games that people enjoy and then companies can also make money on.

Games go F2P to milk players, because they have proven to bring in more average income then your average premium game release.

[Hollow-Enigma]

I would argue that all those statements hold just as much true for B2P titles. They aim to do the exact same thing what makes them immune to the exact same motivations? Just look at recent DLC trends.

Just think of how many installments of borderlands you have bought, how many team ninja games that stick to a very similar core and so on. That excluding DLC's already adds up.

And the what you call casino monetization is a gross generalization, every game should be subjected to its own scrutiny here.

[AFC_HIGHBURY]

Автор сообщения: Mike

Автор сообщения: AFC_HIGHBURY

I mean the benefit in playing any game is getting enjoyment out of it, how it was produced or price/ lack of should have very little to do with it, Remember the days when AAA games didn't have dlc's and actually felt complete? F2p games had nothing to do with that. It's just the next step of an evolving industry.

I disagree once again. The people who decide to make a game F2P have 2 things in mind: 1. How are we going to keep players addicted, 2. how are we going to get as much profit for as little effort as possible. Notice these things are ALL in the benefit of the corporation and not the actual players.

My attitude of F2P games would be completely different if F2P games were invented to give players who may not have the money for premium games a chance to play something with as little money investment as possible, but that is not the case. F2P is pretty much the "casino" mentality but slapped on games, and people eat it up like just like that person who wasted thousands of dollars at the slot machine and has nothing to show for it. There is a reason why F2P games on average are more costly to your average player then one time premium titles you pay for once and maybe an expansion or 2.

I mean F2P games are a thing ONLY because of money, and people see "free" in the title and that is what gets them into the door of the most predatory monetary schemes in the industry. I'll put it this way, F2P live service games are more psychological in nature, then devs/companies doing it for the good of players who don't have a lot of money to spend on games. Its all about chasing that carrot and milking that money.

There is no doubt many of these F2P games are "fun" but I don't like at them on the surface level I look at them for the reason they are made.

The best part about premium looters that are not F2P is that you can still get those dopamine highs from good itemization and loot drops, but without that real money gambling and real money attachment to the systems. The reason why something like Diablo 2 is still played to this day is because it has those perfect "just one more run" flows, while also respecting the players time and money investment, where the player gets all of the benefit and none of the negatives attached.

Once again if people want to only player F2P games, thats their choice and I don't care, but when you go deeper then "this game is fun though" you will realize all F2P games are predatory in nature and have been from the start.

Growing up I was a FIFA player, the game is nothing more than a casino now and it still has a box price. Its just the industry unfortunately and they are all in it for money.

[AFC_HIGHBURY]

Автор сообщения: Moga CMDR

Автор сообщения: AFC_HIGHBURY

I mean the benefit in playing any game is getting enjoyment out of it, how it was produced or price/ lack of should have very little to do with it...It's just the next step of an evolving industry.

Someone who gets it.

It's unfortunate how many people waste so much time missing the point.

Personally, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with someone who only sees doom, and lives in a world full of FUD. They only see evil in everything, and anything you say will only convince them more.

TBF I understand his issue, it's just that I disagree that all f2p games are predatory in nature, there are f2p games that do respect your time just as much as a b2P game.

[Mike]

Автор сообщения: Hollow-Enigma

I would argue that all those statements hold just as much true for B2P titles. They aim to do the exact same thing what makes them immune to the exact same motivations? Just look at recent DLC trends.

Just think of how many installments of borderlands you have bought, how many team ninja games that stick to a very similar core and so on. That excluding DLC's already adds up.

And the what you call casino monetization is a gross generalization, every game should be subjected to its own scrutiny here.

I agree DLC trends have gotten out of hand and een BL2 at the time of its content releases was nickle and diming customers like crazy (I never denied this). However, to be fair to the BL series, game expansions/sequels for games has been a thing LONG before BL and the more recent BL games have kind of chilled out on the 30+ paid DLCs listed on the store front.

Also you can't honestly compare FULL completely developed sequels or meaty story expansions that add tons of real content, to the monetization of your average F2P cash shop that charge obscene prices for skins and cosmetic items.

I know you know that ALL Products (no matter the industry) are iterative right? You know like the going from a GTX 1000 series to a RTX 4000 series card, Or a power drill that now had twice the battery life and torque, or a 2020 kia, vs a 2024 kia, or the next apple/android smart phone that has so and so enhancements over the last,.... the list goes on forever.

A product that is iterative but has enough change/benefit to warrant the price is NOT the same as nickle and diming customers to the level of F2P games. One is actual content the player interacts with that clearly had time, money and thought invested into it and one is slightly different overpriced cosmetic skin to look different while playing the same content or even worse paid currencies used to speed up the game systems.

You cannot compare the monetization of many F2P games to a premium game that releases a huge story expansion a year after release that offers hundreds more hours of content for a single cost, with no subscription, no pay to win,...etc. Theyare in completely different ball parks.

Also I would happily pay every 3-4 years for a new sequel or addition to an already existing game, ONLY if the players time and money is respected. I have bought every Grim Dawn expansion (not a single regret), I have bought every TItan Quest expansion (not a single regret, I have bought almost every Team Ninja game DLC expansions (not a single regret) and the reason I keep doing it is because they actually add to the games I love and, guess what? They are not nickle and dmining me every time I boot up the game as these are DLCS that are spaced out months and even YEARS apart.

I don't agree with you comparison here at all.

[Mike]

Автор сообщения: AFC_HIGHBURY

Автор сообщения: Moga CMDR

Someone who gets it.

It's unfortunate how many people waste so much time missing the point.

Personally, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with someone who only sees doom, and lives in a world full of FUD. They only see evil in everything, and anything you say will only convince them more.

TBF I understand his issue, it's just that I disagree that all f2p games are predatory in nature, there are f2p games that do respect your time just as much as a b2P game.

I appreciate the back and forth, honestly. Also what F2P games would you personally say do respect the player time and money investment?

[AFC_HIGHBURY]

Автор сообщения: Mike

Автор сообщения: AFC_HIGHBURY

TBF I understand his issue, it's just that I disagree that all f2p games are predatory in nature, there are f2p games that do respect your time just as much as a b2P game.

I appreciate the back and forth, honestly. Also what F2P games would you personally say do respect the player time and money investment?

Warframe, Poe, gw2 base game (has paid dlc's), any shooter, I mainly play apex as I don't like cod (I honestly couldnt care if someone's running around with a 150 quid + heirloom lol) and tbh any f2p game untill I choose to uninstall, I even have 2k+ hours in lost ark russian client and ours combined.