Making guns more viable

[Pillagius]

In order to bring up general use and effectiveness of guns, comparable to skills, their effectiveness vs groups of enemies and enemy defenses has to improve.

Currently there are a bunch of great weapons and mods for single target DPS (although say, "Mental Focus" ramping up over such a long period of time is annoying), but practically no weapons help you deal with groups of enemies, why Thunder Cage is as popular as it is.

So as an option, introduce relatively cheap mods that, help vs groups of enemies.
For example mods with various effects that hit more than one target:
- bounce bullets between enemies,
- "multi-shot" mods
- bullet penetration mods (would be amazing if it worked on shields and immunity bubbles)
- ricochet mods,
- Explosive rounds (that explode on impact or reaching effective range limit)
- Shots applying various DOT effects with decent consistently,
Etc.

Some other strange ideas from "Twin Stick Shooter" and "Bullet Hell" genre games to liven up not very effective vs crowds and pretty boring "Futuristic bullet flies straight", "Futurristic gun shoots less accurate, but hits harder", or "Reload slower but shoot harder".

[AI NPC]

please give us more purple ammo there's no point in shotguns at all.

[Pillagius]

Originally posted by KiroTheImmortal:

Originally posted by Pillagius:

1. Uh-huh. Which ones? Surely not two shotguns. I do use the ammo conversion mods, they're not enough to match at least Impact ammo efficiency and work only when you hold weapon it's equipped on. Running around with empty gun isn't exactly fun.
2. Same as 1.
3. So what you're saying it can be used as statstick instead of a weapon. OK.
I never denied Thuder Cage existence, rather saying that other weapons need ways to hit more than one target to compete with skills.
4. How exactly? Mods add on top of weapon stats, not change them completely and however many mods you apply - poor base stats will still underperform.
5. In both actively used for general content too, but thanks to ammo economy opt not to most of the time in TFD.
6. You're really missing a point here, let's try again: TFD currently has crit/weakpoint stacking meta, which is hardly any different from Warframe. What I'm saying is to have more viable options to dilute and diversify crit/weakpoint meta. Does it has to copy Waframe 1 to 1? No.
6.2. My complaint is that you can have second weapon of same type with ammo reserves and pickup mods to feed your main weapon, while it's meta - it's not fun. At all.

1: Restored Relic and After glow. The former is an ammo guzzler. I dont ♥♥♥♥ with shotguns in any game because video game shotguns are ass. Then make a complaint about that. Not the overall ammo economy.
2: See 1
3: You have been avoiding thundercage. Most of your issues is solved with its existants. Im sorry what game has a glock killing tanks? It helps you kill small adds with insane reload and run and gun. IT does exactly what its designed to.
4: Litterally add and elemental mod plus the rerolling of the implicit modifiers on your weapons. They contribute to about 1/3 your weapon damage. Then Crit/Weakpoint improves that damage. Finally throw in fire rate and walla you wont hold anyone back in boss fights. Finally throw on whatever Special mod just seems to fit your build. Spreading elemental effects or bonus damage to elements. Or if you like LMGS the increased damage as gun is fired.
5: i dont even know what you are saying i think its you not able to manage ammo again idk
6: warframe also has weekpoint and crit stacking what? Ontop of multi shot and how their elemental damage system scaled. Again you make no sense at all on this argument. Warframes issue was every gun did at least 2x-3x the damage shown before crits with multishot. and after crits it will be ANOTHER 1.5x-3x damage. AND THEN ANOTHER 2x for weekpoint hits. Ontop of how elemental worked where your gun did about 2x-3x its base damage with elemental mods. Throw in the fact that you just need a couple mods to make any frame excessively tanky.
6.2: then dont play that way? I dont understand. I use 2 generals(willpower or tamer) (mostly because i have been farming for python for about 3 weeks now and cant find a bp rip) and afterglow or restored relic when im not playing enzo and i already mentioned Restored Relic AND Afterglow when i am playing enzo and some kind of fast mobility general.

I'm tired responding with walls of text... Keep imagining what you want.
Point was and is: there is an extreme minority of weapons everyone's using and that what I see as a problem, something you never denied either.
Warframe is only an example as it "heavily inspires" a number of core mechanics in TFD and has wide variety of weapons you can use in any type of mission great effect, with very rare exceptions.

[Hybernian]

Step 1: Nerf Bunny

[KiroTheImmortal]

Originally posted by Pillagius:

Originally posted by KiroTheImmortal:

1: Restored Relic and After glow. The former is an ammo guzzler. I dont ♥♥♥♥ with shotguns in any game because video game shotguns are ass. Then make a complaint about that. Not the overall ammo economy.
2: See 1
3: You have been avoiding thundercage. Most of your issues is solved with its existants. Im sorry what game has a glock killing tanks? It helps you kill small adds with insane reload and run and gun. IT does exactly what its designed to.
4: Litterally add and elemental mod plus the rerolling of the implicit modifiers on your weapons. They contribute to about 1/3 your weapon damage. Then Crit/Weakpoint improves that damage. Finally throw in fire rate and walla you wont hold anyone back in boss fights. Finally throw on whatever Special mod just seems to fit your build. Spreading elemental effects or bonus damage to elements. Or if you like LMGS the increased damage as gun is fired.
5: i dont even know what you are saying i think its you not able to manage ammo again idk
6: warframe also has weekpoint and crit stacking what? Ontop of multi shot and how their elemental damage system scaled. Again you make no sense at all on this argument. Warframes issue was every gun did at least 2x-3x the damage shown before crits with multishot. and after crits it will be ANOTHER 1.5x-3x damage. AND THEN ANOTHER 2x for weekpoint hits. Ontop of how elemental worked where your gun did about 2x-3x its base damage with elemental mods. Throw in the fact that you just need a couple mods to make any frame excessively tanky.
6.2: then dont play that way? I dont understand. I use 2 generals(willpower or tamer) (mostly because i have been farming for python for about 3 weeks now and cant find a bp rip) and afterglow or restored relic when im not playing enzo and i already mentioned Restored Relic AND Afterglow when i am playing enzo and some kind of fast mobility general.

I'm tired responding with walls of text... Keep imagining what you want.
Point was and is: there is an extreme minority of weapons everyone's using and that what I see as a problem, something you never denied either.
Warframe is only an example as it "heavily inspires" a number of core mechanics in TFD and has wide variety of weapons you can use in any type of mission great effect, with very rare exceptions.

theres a minor amount of weapons used because of the YoutubeMeta Most nobody actualy builds their own ♥♥♥♥ anymore and hasnt for a while. They coppy off of streamers. And people who do use other ♥♥♥♥ dont go out and say they are. Theres good weapons out there. weapons are strong. some need touched but its not the majority of weapons.

[Pillagius]

Originally posted by Nerf Bunny Hybernian:

Step 1: Nerf Bunny

Uhuh, then nerf Valby - cuz 4/10 too much water.
That... Doesn't help underwhelming performance of majority of the weapons, just makes tedium more tedious overall.
Editing functionality of some enemy skills might help, like immunity sphere stops damage from all skills and you have to either enter it in order to kill the enemy with that affix or attack bubble a bunch of times to disable it and then deal with enemies.
Or the immunity to damage except weakspots (when weakspots highlighted with red) - make it so only guns can hit those.

[KiroTheImmortal]

Originally posted by Nerf Bunny Hybernian:

Step 1: Nerf Bunny

Step two. Get good and realize bunny isnt op.

[Pillagius]

Originally posted by KiroTheImmortal:

Originally posted by Pillagius:

I'm tired responding with walls of text... Keep imagining what you want.
Point was and is: there is an extreme minority of weapons everyone's using and that what I see as a problem, something you never denied either.
Warframe is only an example as it "heavily inspires" a number of core mechanics in TFD and has wide variety of weapons you can use in any type of mission great effect, with very rare exceptions.

theres a minor amount of weapons used because of the YoutubeMeta Most nobody actualy builds their own ♥♥♥♥ anymore and hasnt for a while. They coppy off of streamers. And people who do use other ♥♥♥♥ dont go out and say they are. Theres good weapons out there. weapons are strong. some need touched but its not the majority of weapons.

Doesn't it just highlight issue with too much grind to get even one weapon properly 'online', so people use what was tested by somebody and seems perform well on paper/video?

[KiroTheImmortal]

Originally posted by Pillagius:

Originally posted by KiroTheImmortal:

theres a minor amount of weapons used because of the YoutubeMeta Most nobody actualy builds their own ♥♥♥♥ anymore and hasnt for a while. They coppy off of streamers. And people who do use other ♥♥♥♥ dont go out and say they are. Theres good weapons out there. weapons are strong. some need touched but its not the majority of weapons.

Doesn't it just highlight issue with too much grind to get even one weapon properly 'online', so people use what was tested by somebody and seems perform well on paper/video?

Not enough content. Not too much grind. there realy isnt that much grind, however by the time you start it you dont have any reason TO grind. The only thing thats too much of a grind is money. Gold needs to be more free flowing if its going to have this many uses.

[Blanchimont]

Originally posted by Pillagius:

Originally posted by KiroTheImmortal:

theres a minor amount of weapons used because of the YoutubeMeta Most nobody actualy builds their own ♥♥♥♥ anymore and hasnt for a while. They coppy off of streamers. And people who do use other ♥♥♥♥ dont go out and say they are. Theres good weapons out there. weapons are strong. some need touched but its not the majority of weapons.

Doesn't it just highlight issue with too much grind to get even one weapon properly 'online', so people use what was tested by somebody and seems perform well on paper/video?

Naw most weapons are fine from the moment you get them, even with the debuff they usually come with. You can just stick a maxed out Rifling Reinforcement and it's a passable weapon already. You also get a general idea of what they can or cannot do. Upgrading ultimates makes their abilities more powerful and more consistent. Using Energy Activators and upgrading your modules or assigning types to reduce capacity costs allow you to show in more mods. But, you can get a rough idea of what it's capable of just using a few base mods.

The problem is that people are trying too hard to min max from the very beginning and forgetting about the fun. The void intercept bosses really makes the problem that much worse.

[KiroTheImmortal]

Originally posted by Blanchimont:

Originally posted by Pillagius:

Doesn't it just highlight issue with too much grind to get even one weapon properly 'online', so people use what was tested by somebody and seems perform well on paper/video?

Naw most weapons are fine from the moment you get them, even with the debuff they usually come with. You can just stick a maxed out Rifling Reinforcement and it's a passable weapon already. You also get a general idea of what they can or cannot do. Upgrading ultimates makes their abilities more powerful and more consistent. Using Energy Activators and upgrading your modules or assigning types to reduce capacity costs allow you to show in more mods. But, you can get a rough idea of what it's capable of just using a few base mods.

The problem is that people are trying too hard to min max from the very beginning and forgetting about the fun. The void intercept bosses really makes the problem that much worse.

No you cant. Relic goes from doing less then 10m without mods in a boss fight to over 30m in the same fight same duration. Your right about the Ultimate part and not needing to finish them all off. After glow for example really doesnt need it if you dont play like an idiot and try to snipe for the end of globe. But mods make or break your damage flat out. You need at least 8 Fully leveled mods to make a weapon good. Thats a mushroom and for most weapons 7 forma or for ultimate weapons about 6. To say you can just go with any weapons says you have been getting hard carried.

[KiroTheImmortal]

I will also add that Restored Relic requires you to get all of the uniques to get it to be even viable. Same with Python

[Blanchimont]

Originally posted by KiroTheImmortal:

Originally posted by Blanchimont:

Naw most weapons are fine from the moment you get them, even with the debuff they usually come with. You can just stick a maxed out Rifling Reinforcement and it's a passable weapon already. You also get a general idea of what they can or cannot do. Upgrading ultimates makes their abilities more powerful and more consistent. Using Energy Activators and upgrading your modules or assigning types to reduce capacity costs allow you to show in more mods. But, you can get a rough idea of what it's capable of just using a few base mods.

The problem is that people are trying too hard to min max from the very beginning and forgetting about the fun. The void intercept bosses really makes the problem that much worse.

No you cant. Relic goes from doing less then 10m without mods in a boss fight to over 30m in the same fight same duration. Your right about the Ultimate part and not needing to finish them all off. After glow for example really doesnt need it if you dont play like an idiot and try to snipe for the end of globe. But mods make or break your damage flat out. You need at least 8 Fully leveled mods to make a weapon good. Thats a mushroom and for most weapons 7 forma or for ultimate weapons about 6. To say you can just go with any weapons says you have been getting hard carried.

Solo'd every hard boss up to Swamp Walker with a Tier 2 Thunder Cage or Tier 1 Enduring Legacy with barely half the mods upgraded. Sure it took about 9 minutes, but I did it.