TFD has an indentity crisis.

[Inuakurei]

I don't know how to accurately articulate this without sounding like "old man yells at clouds" so tldr at the end.

First off, so me context so you understand my viewpoint. I don't like Warframe. At all. To me, Warframe feels like an endless grind of one shotting minions so I can one shot minons slightly more efficiently; with no real payoff for doing so. I like a grind, so long as there's an end goal to the grind, a hurdle to overcome. I'm also a fan of cooperative games. So when TFD was announced, with marketing about group play and different characters focused on dps, tank, and support, I was interested despite it's obvious similarities to Warframe.

I had no interest in playing any of the starter characters, so I tossed a coin between buying Jayber or Kyle and ended up buying Kyle at lv1. Early impressions were good. While what little I played of Warframe felt like a solo experience of navigating bland, narrow corridors by myself, TFD felt like an open world by comparison. It was fun going through the story along side other players, being able to join them on missions even if they weren't directly part of my party. The auto mission joining system made just running from place to place much more enjoyable than most other games. The driving force of the whole experience though were the Colossus fights.

During the story, the normal mode Colossus felt great to overcome. Reaching each one proved to be a decent difficulty spike, really picking up at the Dead Bride. Especially from there on, after learning how Kyle's kit works and grinding some decent mods, I felt incredibly useful. High damage nuke[files.catbox.moe], I was nearly invulnerable, and with an on demand mobile shield, it was fun. And sure you get the occasional bad teammate with no defensive mods, but even so the challenge wasn't insurmountable. I was genuinely having a good time, looking forward to each new colossus fight, then I hit Hanged Man...

And sorry to disappoint you, but I thought it was a great fight. This is the first fight with any real mechanics to it, which I don't think the playerbase was expecting after 7 various flavors of "tank and spank" colossus, but I actually like mechanics in boss fights so I felt it was a great introduction into what hard mode would have to offer. Or so I thought, because this is where things got weird.

In hard mode it very quickly became apparent that this game was going to require A LOT of grinding. Which is fine, because there were a whole new set of colossus to look forward to fighting, and Hanged Man gave the impression that they'd throw in different mechanics at some point to keep things fresh. So I kept on going.

After playing through the whole game as Kyle I got bored of him for the moment, so I bought Jayber. I had only invested like 2 catalysts into Kyle at this point, and they're both non-element, so it wasn't a huge investment to gear Jayber up and start doing Colossus with him. Here is where I really began to feel the divide in gameplay identity. Outside of Colossus, nothing mattered other than dps and aoe capability; which is a stark difference to the Colossus's requirements of survivability and single target dps. Building for one did not easily translate to the other, and the open world was very easy to reach "maximum efficiency" in. Still, grinding the open world with the promise of Colossus fights was enough to keep me interested.

As I killed my way though colossus though, something started to become clear. As the difficulty of the Colossus increased, so did the disparity in usefulness of the decendants. And in a really bad way.

Typically in games like these which have "tanks" and "supports" but no enforced trinity, the tank and supports have to provide enough utility to make up for their damage disparity. Ajax is a good example of this. In theory, Ajax's shields let the other dps players dps more consistently, thus increasing group dps. Same for supports. Either heal enough so the dps don't need to heal themselves as often, or provide buffs/resource gain so they can dps harder. Mix in some various amounts of personal dps abilities for supports, and that's how you balance them. TFD has a problem with this though.

Every Colossus in TFD has more stats all around than the previous one, which seems like an obvious way to increase difficulty at first. However with the way TFD stat scaling works, it expects everyone to slot increasing amounts of HP/DEF/Resists to survive, and even then Colossus will still hit hard, while also upping the dps requirements. This places "tanks" and "healers" in a weird spot. "Tanks" naturally want to stat defensive, but because we all have access to the same modules, and the game expects DPS to also stat defensive, "Tanks" aren't statting much differently than the DPS. Meaning the "Tanks" are not nearly as tanky as you'd expect them to be. Supports fall into a similar boat, feeling like they need too many stats all at once to function, and falling behing in usefulness; because the stat scaling of Colossus means they near one shot everyone anyway.

To use Ajax as an example again, at first his shields are very useful because they scale with his DEF. In later Colossus fights however, around the time of hard mode Swamp Walker, Ajax has already slotted as much HP/DEF as he can by this point, but the Colossus scaling doesn't stop. Meaning after this point, Ajax's shields become less and less effective. By the time I got to Gluttony, in the few times I did see an Ajax, their shields couldn't even take 1 hit. I have the same experience with Jayber turrets. Medical turret is supposed to be a "tank", gaining 90% of Jayber's def, 150% of his HP, and taunting. However no matter how much HP, DEF, or Resists (I dont think resists transfer anyway), I stacked, the "tank" turret could only take one, or sometimes two, hits from Gluttony.

To illustrate how bad this problem is, especially with Gluttony, I want to show you this website that has the stats for each Colossus. Going by what the game considers an increase of 10lvls https://tfdtools.com/bosses.

Name	lv	hp	def	Firearm Atk	Ele Atk
Obsructor	120	35,338,969	182,156	510	576
Molten Fortress	130	57,323,348	194,054	590	721
Gluttony	140	96,207,018	194,054	3,015	3,540

Notice how every stat increases a little bit, then at Gluttony they balloon to ridiculous levels. Everything except Gluttony's DEF. While still having a one shot mechanic to deal with. This is a terrible way to create difficulty.

Now the whole reason I point this out, is to say this. TFD has an identity crisis right now in that it doesn't know what it wants to be. On one hand, it's a standard looter shooter in the open world where raw dps is king and everything dies too fast to care for anything other than raw aoe DPS specs. While on the other hand it's trying to have the holy "DPS", "tanks", and "support" trinity where the only place they'd be useful is in difficult Colossus battles. Yet the descendants and Colossus are so badly balanced that more than half the cast can't effectively farm the open world content, and the Colossus stat checking invalidates team dynamics, so even there everything falls back to raw dps is king.

It feels like this game was developed by two different teams. One that was making a power fantasy looter shooter, and another that was creating a cooperative hero shooter; and when it came time to merge the two, they couldn't agree on how to balance the game for both gameplay types. This would make a lot of sense really when you realize how disconnected the Colossus are from the rest of the game; and why they're all in generic, instanced arenas, that randomly show up as fights in the story that have no relevance to the plot, rather than woven into the open world.

Now you may be asking, why does any of this matter? It matters because I don't believe Nexon is moving the game in a direction that is fixing any of this, and it is the main reason I got into this game. Gluttony is a prime example of such. We complained that Colossus mechanics were a bit too annoying for pugs to deal with, so Nexon's response was to nerf Frost Walker, yet ship another obtuse mechanic fight with obscene stat buffs, specifically targeted to gatekeep the 1% of min maxed builds that were one shotting the previous Colossus. Even the content in Season one seems to be single player focused. No nerfes announced for the 1% of broken builds they're clearly trying to counter with Gluttony's stat scaling, but no meaningful buffs announced either. Just 2 Jayber bug fixes and one Blair buff. Poor Esimo isn't even mentioned. And I'm willing to bet the new Colossus fight will have another gimmick that borderline requires Hailey or Ultimate Freyna. Just like they did with Gluttony and Ult Valby.

I'm annoyed because I was lead to believe TFD was a looter shooter that was going to be balanced around it's end game Colossus fights. But the father into it you go, the less and less balanced it becomes, and Nexon doesn't seem to care. I predict there's only so long people will stick around for solo speed running dungeons only to be gatekept by a Colossus targeted for the 1%, while knowing all of your progress resets in Season two anyway.

---

tldr; The open world content and end game Colossus content do not feel connected. It feels like two conflicting gameplay styles and the descendants are not balanced well for either one. Nor does the game do a good job of teaching the player how to transition from open world mobbing where any random build works, to Colossus fights that require very specific modules. The open world is a brain off, easy to farm power fantasy; while the Colossus are difficult stat checks with very strict mmo mechanics, while expecting players to farm them like a typical power fantasy game. Nexon doesn't seem like it's interested in fixing the core issues with this, which I think will drive away players very soon, as players realize descendants they put lots of hours into are sub par in a lot of TFD's activities.

tldr; tldr;
Open world easy and aoe. Colossus difficult and single target. Game doesn't balance both. Nexon don't care.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

[Delphinus]

Open boss battles would be nice however i dont think consoles couldnt handle that o.o

[😎Astran😾]

Your TL;DR need its own TL;DR

[nostrovus]

Are you asking for colossi to be lowered in difficulty? Or for them to raise the power of non meta characters?

[Busted648]

It is almost as if I / and others predicted this and have been calling for it by addressing the problems that ruin any need of having supports/tanks/utility. They forgot about CC classes, tanks, buffers and debuffers, healing, etc.

Sure, they have them but they are an afterthought and I don't see that changing. Nexon wont balance or make other roles viable. They flat out dont know how to.

game has failed class archetypes and with that, the game will fail.

[BANGBΩ︎Ω︎G€︎Y]

Interesting read. A close friend suggested this game to me as I once loved Warframe back on xbox 1 and has since built and moved on to pc. Figured I would comb the discussions and reviews and decide if I want to play it.

[Inuakurei]

Originally posted by BANGBΩ︎Ω︎G€︎Y:

Interesting read. A close friend suggested this game to me as I once loved Warframe back on xbox 1 and has since built and moved on to pc. Figured I would comb the discussions and reviews and decide if I want to play it.

To be fair you don't HAVE to interact with the Colossus battles outside of going through the normal mode story. There are alternatives to farm most the things Colossus battles drop (at least atm), but it just requires a lot more open world farming.

[vishuspuss]

mmm just concerning ajax shields:

you can build godmode ajax only using his shields. he will never die. his teammates that stay close get full shield recharges and never die as well (as long as they have decent base shields).

its all about builds i guess

[Inuakurei]

Originally posted by nostrovus:

Are you asking for colossi to be lowered in difficulty? Or for them to raise the power of non meta characters?

Honestly, a mix of both. If Nexon isn't going to nerf the 1% of builds that are one shotting Colossus, but at the same time tune Colossus to combat those builds, then they need to buff the other classes to that 1% power level.

But even if you do that, the mechanics are still problematic for pugs. Its not that they're hard to understand. Most players I meet in Gluttony understand how it works. It's that they are very tight windows. One "meta" dps mistakenly doing dps when Gluttony's meter is high, can easily offset two people on orb duty. I think the mechanic is fine, it's just too strict in how you need to execute it. Same problem Frost Walker had really.

[LdyAftermath1hand gamer]

Well, I agree. I found this out last week and have not put near as much time in game. 5k hours in warframe was the experience i needed to recognise this game has the issues you talked about. I stopped playing last week, was reading the next season notes, and everything you mentioned was in my head as I was reading it. I am going to take a break from this game. I like the solo mode they mentioned as some times farming just has to be done fast and alone. But the seasonal resetting. There is an obvious fight in game mechanics ( the open world and dungeon fights as mentioned ) it has made me apathetic at best on continuing. If asked for a rating, i'd give it a meh.
I love farming games I really do but... there is no achieving anything. No proper progress to feel proud about.
I'm gen x and i swear games had way more heart involved in their creation in like 2000-03 Like Final Fantasy XI. if you played that you know what a grind is but you would also know great rewards for your grind. I know its a different genre of game play but my point is, The open world and dungeons were still the same game. And you experienced great accomplishments and power on your characters growth. These characters don't grow and don't get more powerful, actually less powerful lol. anyway Great read my man. Great perspective and insight, making good points for folks to consider.

[PortalShifter]

Originally posted by Inuakurei:

Warframe feels like an endless grind of one shotting minions so I can one shot minons slightly more efficiently; with no real payoff for doing so.

Stopped reading here. Why bother making a thread where you compare TFD to Warframe but then only describe TFD?

[Inuakurei]

Originally posted by PortalShifter:

Originally posted by Inuakurei:

Warframe feels like an endless grind of one shotting minions so I can one shot minons slightly more efficiently; with no real payoff for doing so.

Stopped reading here. Why bother making a thread where you compare TFD to Warframe but then only describe TFD?

Because if you read further than that, I don't compare it to Warframe at all beyond that. Warframe comparison isn't relevant to my TFD points. That setup is only to illustrate that I don't enjoy that gameplay loop, so I'm not looking for that in TFD.

[PortalShifter]

Originally posted by Inuakurei:

Because if you read further than that, I don't compare it to Warframe at all beyond that. Warframe comparison isn't relevant to my TFD points. That setup is only to illustrate that I don't enjoy that gameplay loop, so I'm not looking for that in TFD.

Ah I see. I stopped reading because The First Descendant feels like an endless grind of one shotting minions so I can one shot minons slightly more efficiently; with no real payoff for doing so.

[Busted648]

Originally posted by PortalShifter:

Originally posted by Inuakurei:

Because if you read further than that, I don't compare it to Warframe at all beyond that. Warframe comparison isn't relevant to my TFD points. That setup is only to illustrate that I don't enjoy that gameplay loop, so I'm not looking for that in TFD.

Ah I see. I stopped reading because The First Descendant feels like an endless grind of one shotting minions so I can one shot minons slightly more efficiently; with no real payoff for doing so.

I mean you arent wrong

[Inuakurei]

Originally posted by Nerf Bunny=Save the Game:

Originally posted by PortalShifter:

Ah I see. I stopped reading because The First Descendant feels like an endless grind of one shotting minions so I can one shot minons slightly more efficiently; with no real payoff for doing so.

I mean you arent wrong

Honestly hes not, and thats' why I'm upset.

[Busted648]

Originally posted by Inuakurei:

Originally posted by Nerf Bunny=Save the Game:

I mean you arent wrong

Honestly hes not, and thats' why I'm upset.

one of the big problems indeed, no purpose. no payoff.