Story canonicity

[Fashion_mage]

So I've been playing through both Yunica and Hugo's stories simultaneously until I recently learned that apparently only the third character's story is canon. Making the only two starting protagonists' stories not canon seems like an extremely arbitrary decision from a writing standpoint, and it kind of takes the wind out of my sails to keep playing what are seemingly just what-if stories. Do Yunica and Hugo just get shoveled off as side characters in the third character's route? Is it actually worth it to go through their stories aside from unlocking the third character?

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

I cried so much over Yunica's story.

So, I'd say, yes.

[Berahlen]

I cried more over how Dalles was very clearly tuned for literally everyone who isn't Yunica lol

Yunica is very much shoveled as a side character in Toal's path. Hugo...definitely has some presence. It really feels like Yunica and Hugo were added late in development as afterthoughts; almost every boss feels tuned around Toal's balance of agility, defense, and damage, while Hugo's range and shield completely break the game, and Yunica is too slow and her kit is barely functional at all.

[Ikagura]

The Ys series' about Adol's journey over the world from his own journals anyway.

[bojangles]

Originally posted by Berahlen:

I cried more over how Dalles was very clearly tuned for literally everyone who isn't Yunica lol

Yunica is very much shoveled as a side character in Toal's path. Hugo...definitely has some presence. It really feels like Yunica and Hugo were added late in development as afterthoughts; almost every boss feels tuned around Toal's balance of agility, defense, and damage, while Hugo's range and shield completely break the game, and Yunica is too slow and her kit is barely functional at all.

I found Yunica to be the most balanced character. She's got a good balance of speed, power, and range. I've done Nightmare boss rush with her and there was never an instance where I felt like the bosses were stacked against her. In fact, she can deal with certain bosses better than Toal, like Velagunder and Kishgal. Velagunder is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ awful to fight on Nightmare with Toal because it's difficult for him to kill the bugs (and Velagunder's laser is sped up to match Toal's speed). Also, if you dash in that slime on the floor, you go flying and lose control. Kishgal is super annoying on Toal because he can't clear the icicles as easily as Yunica, and he can't safely attack Kishgal from a distance. You have to use i-frames on his fire move and time it properly so that you're not taking damage as soon as it ends.

Also, not sure what you mean about Dalles. Yunica can deal with him just fine. If you're talking about those meteors he fires in the first phase, she can easily dodge them. Just run right along the outer wall.

[Kargor]

Originally posted by Ikagura:

The Ys series' about Adol's journey over the world from his own journals anyway.

I haven't played any other Ys games (yet?), but there's definitely no Adol in this game...

[bojangles]

And to answer the topic: You should play Yunica and Hugo's story because it fleshes out what they experience in Toal's playthrough. Yunica and Hugo are like abridged versions of themselves in Toal's playthrough. They still experience some of the same things in Toal's playthrough that they did in their own playthrough, you just don't get the full picture of it because you're playing from Toal's perspective.

And to be clear: None of the characters' playthroughs take place in the same timeline as each other, there's just some similarties between them

[Melon Sc//ence]

Originally posted by Kargor:

Originally posted by Ikagura:

The Ys series' about Adol's journey over the world from his own journals anyway.

I haven't played any other Ys games (yet?), but there's definitely no Adol in this game...

Because Origin happened 700 years before even Adol was born lol.
but Adol do be a special guest to play in Origin, with 2 playstyles, and requires you to play all 3 characters story once, which unlocks Arena mode and Bonus Shop, then go find some points in Arena and purchased him from the shop. Also there are EX versions of 3 main characters as well, they all have slight variance in their magics so don't expect too much for them to be easy boss revenge

[EdgarAllenSwole]

Yunica is worth playing for the challenge, Hugo is worth playing for the smarmy dialogue. Story-wise they're unimportant. Hugo's background gives you a bit of insight into Toal's ending and that's it. Everything else is either overwritten in Toal's route or just pointless in general, like their relationships with other characters in the landing party.

[Kargor]

Originally posted by EdgarAllenSwole:

Everything else is either overwritten in Toal's route or just pointless in general, like their relationships with other characters in the landing party.

Yeah, it's a prime example of bad writing. Even Yunica and Hugo storylines contradict; they couldn't be bothered to show the same story from different perspectives...

Originally posted by Melon Sc//ence:

but Adol do be a special guest to play in Origin, with 2 playstyles, and requires you to play all 3 characters story once, which unlocks Arena mode and Bonus Shop, then go find ...

Yeah, like I'd bother doing stupid arena modes and grind for non-story elements... 😀

Besides, it's still not an Adol story like the other poster claimed. From what you're saying, the guy is just a filler.

I definitly had enough Ys Origin after playing the game three times without any kind of NG+...

[Melon Sc//ence]

Originally posted by Kargor:

Yeah, like I'd bother doing stupid arena modes and grind for non-story elements... 😀

Besides, it's still not an Adol story like the other poster claimed. From what you're saying, the guy is just a filler.

I definitly had enough Ys Origin after playing the game three times without any kind of NG+...

Well the Arena Mode is just for bonus fun, and it is not that hard to grind cause you got Hugo to hack around it.

About the NG+, there sort of is though, I meant if you clear every difficulty for every character (5 per each, don't count EX version) then you can have up to 150,000 starting gold. But this is nothing compared to ability to use cheats built in the game, basically F2 - instant level up (max 60), F3 - instant gold increase, and F4 - instant HP heal. These can be activated on Nightmare runs as well. The only gripe you have to deal with is to find the unlocking requirement in the first place.

[Berahlen]

Originally posted by Bojangles:

I found Yunica to be the most balanced character. She's got a good balance of speed, power, and range. I've done Nightmare boss rush with her and there was never an instance where I felt like the bosses were stacked against her. In fact, she can deal with certain bosses better than Toal, like Velagunder and Kishgal. Velagunder is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ awful to fight on Nightmare with Toal because it's difficult for him to kill the bugs (and Velagunder's laser is sped up to match Toal's speed). Also, if you dash in that slime on the floor, you go flying and lose control. Kishgal is super annoying on Toal because he can't clear the icicles as easily as Yunica, and he can't safely attack Kishgal from a distance. You have to use i-frames on his fire move and time it properly so that you're not taking damage as soon as it ends.

I 100%ed it several years ago and haven't played since, so some of these may have been patched. But here's what I remember.

Only boss I thought Yunica had easier than Toal was Khonsclard, because she can phoenix sideways and hit all six flowers in one shot which kills them evenly and prevents respawns. She does okay with Zava and Pictimos because lol bolt crash column, but no easier than Toal just mashing his spin2win face into them with near impunity.

She's almost as slow as Hugo, but with no shield, a very poor block move, and can't attack well on the run. She can't reliably dodge stuff like Kishgal's dragons, and his icicle fall can randomly clip her at a full straight run. She's barely fast enough to escape Dalles's suction trap at all, and risks random hits from heavy rings that she has no way to reliably dodge while running from it. She's so bad at attacking on the move and her ranged attack does so little damage that she doesn't really have any good way to handle his last phase at all -- whereas Toal just dashes right up to the drones, boosts, and shreds them in a couple spins before much of anything even happens.

Her kit barely functions. Her basic combo just misses 1/3 of its hits. She's balanced around a 4-swing combo that hits 6 times -- the final swing triggers an extra 2-hit shockwave, which you'd be forgiven for not noticing because it her hits have so much pushback that the shockwave almost always misses. You can only really tell on a few enemies that are fixed in place and don't trigger pushback, such as the turrets in the first area. Almost anything else in the game, a third of your combo just whiffs entirely because either the target goes flying away or you go flying backward, and she just does 2/3 the DPS she's supposed to in between skills.

Her boost is an outright lie. It doesn't affect her attack speed or power at all. It doesn't modify any of her skills like it does for both other characters. All it does is halve damage taken -- and on Nightmare, that's all of like three seconds' worth that you have to anticipate taking damage when the whole point is to not do that in the first place.

Her Burst has so much pushback that you can only even use it by pinning something against a wall. Even if it didn't, most bosses are scripted to just walk away and either stare awkwardly at you raging in place or drop a fatal arena hazard on your head while you're pinned in place. Zava's ultimate goes through the invincibility. At least Toal can aim the damn thing while praying it doesn't get him killed.

Her defensive move has really short iframe. She requires near perfect timing to block Gelaldy's headbutt for instance without getting exploded backward into the lava by the secondary blast. And if you try to dodge, she's too slow to close range after and threshold him without having to repeat his ungodly long script an entire extra cycle per phase. Compare to Toal's two iframe skills -- one of them much longer and highly mobile, and the other even more mobile and spammable for over a full second with no vulnerability between.

Kishgal is...not exactly a pushover for Toal, but miles easier. Don't try to hit and run after he attacks, because he can whirlwind with no telegraph and you can't quite spin all the way out of range. Instead, bait him at midrange into a jumping attack and just spin directly into it. There, that's 2/3 of the fight. The other 1/3 is spinning away from or through everything else. You're fast as hell, your primary attack is also a defensive that actually works for more than a couple frames, you have way more control over dodging his dragons and positioning the iceberg ultimate against a wall so the cold aura doesn't take up the whole field, and you don't need to destroy stalagmites all in one shot because you just do it as you move and spin is cheap. Toal can even easily handle things Yunica is mechanically incapable of, like falling icicles + spread shot -- Yunica is slow enough that she's not only almost guaranteed to get clipped by jumping during icicle fall, but slow enough that they can sometimes clip her by themselves while at a straight uninterrupted run.

Even Velagunder is pretty meh. You don't trace the laser around to begin with, you cancel it entirely by godspeeding behind his torso. Meanwhile Yunica gets ping ponged around the slime just as hard because her whirlwind has just as much ridiculous pushback against his face as everything else she does.

[Melon Sc//ence]

Originally posted by Berahlen:

Long wall of text

I believe you are being waaay too harsh about Yunica to the point you falsely accuse her over many things, and continuously use Toal as an excuse to further talk trash about her as well, which clearly shows your biases instead of being fair.

Originally posted by Berahlen:

Her boost is an outright lie. It doesn't affect her attack speed or power at all. It doesn't modify any of her skills like it does for both other characters

The Boost section from the Manual says Skills will cost half as much MP to use and will pack greater punch, and damage received is halved. While the base damage of the skills seem to be unaffected, but with the half MP cost you can use any skill twice more, says 10 Wind usage instead of normal 5, the same for Thunder which increases your chance to null past any attack, therefore you end up doing much better for a period of time, which means her boost is not a lie. You were overexpecting.

Originally posted by Berahlen:

Only boss I thought Yunica had easier than Toal was Khonsclard

Even Velagunder is pretty meh. You don't trace the laser around to begin with, you cancel it entirely by godspeeding behind his torso. Meanwhile Yunica gets ping ponged around the slime just as hard because her whirlwind has just as much ridiculous pushback against his face as everything else she does.

Actually Yunica has easier time to deal with Velagunder too (well, part thanks to the laser got nerfed) - her wind skill is effectively useful to crowd control mini bugs that heal the boss better than Toal, even if she misses any, just stay at the mouth with a prepared fully charged Wind. Meanwhile sure Toal can just dodge the lasers by going to the back much quicker than she, but at the same time he is missing out the time to eradicte the bugs, and he barely does, to the point has to rely on his Boost often if 4-5+, and yes, good luck catching them at the mouth.

Originally posted by Berahlen:

She can't reliably dodge stuff like Kishgal's dragons, and his icicle fall can randomly clip her at a full straight run

Just go a wide circle, and use Wind to make sudden turn twice, that should be able to dodge the Dragons, else use the Burst. Besides, the falling icicle can randomly hit anyone, including Toal despite having a very clear runway, I know this because I practiced Toal fight for quite a good amount of time.

Originally posted by Berahlen:

She's so bad at attacking on the move and her ranged attack does so little damage that she doesn't really have any good way to handle his last phase at all

Or did you ever thought that Dalles is supposed to be a difficult boss ONLY for her while the other two needn't? as Hugo main threat is his brother, and Toal already got Darm to work on instead. If she were to phase through him that easy, which is her final boss, then who is gonna be the final boss?

Originally posted by Berahlen:

Her ranged attack does so little damage that she doesn't really have any good way to handle his last phase at all

This is clearly false, a full charged Phoenix combined with a decent aim should deal a good amount the the heads. If you miss, well you miss. Also there is hidden potents in her that you have yet to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vuc_aJkRuM&

And before you ask, yes these techs can still be done in the current version of Ys, too bad I couldn't get the hang of them all.

Originally posted by Berahlen:

Her kit barely functions. Her basic combo just misses 1/3 of its hits. She's balanced around a 4-swing combo that hits 6 times -- the final swing triggers an extra 2-hit shockwave, which you'd be forgiven for not noticing because it her hits have so much pushback that the shockwave almost always misses.

I don't see any problem with her melee, because once I got the magics, I will use them along melee to increase the dmg. After all who cares if the enemies got push away from her 1-2 final hit? Just release a charged Phoenix, or do you just leave the button there doing nothing?

Originally posted by Berahlen:

Her Burst has so much pushback that you can only even use it by pinning something against a wall. Even if it didn't, most bosses are scripted to just walk away and either stare awkwardly at you raging in place or drop a fatal arena hazard on your head while you're pinned in place.

Zava's ultimate goes through the invincibility. At least Toal can aim the damn thing while praying it doesn't get him killed.

Then it is definitely you who uses it wrong. For example, Epona 2nd fight in 2nd phase with her clones coming towards you in a straight line, gift her first a full Thunder charge and then immediately trigger Burst, dayumm enjoy the amount she deals to all. Or did you know that Kishgal after using his ultimate Iceberg attack, he would likely use Dragons move next, and you only need to turn on Burst the moment he charges at you, and after he got knockback he still goes for another, end up getting a decent amount of dmg too. Or against Zava, in case you are caught in one of the head, which is also where Zava at, just the Burst and you get to survive while dealing a good mount also. Zava's ultimate is clearly a trap, the same as Dalles.

Originally posted by Berahlen:

Her defensive move has really short iframe. She requires near perfect timing to block Gelaldy's headbutt for instance without getting exploded backward into the lava by the secondary blast.

It is funny because once I realized the strategy, Gelaldy's headbutt is nothing because 1 - you always have Thunder Charge and 2 - Boost to nullify an attack. That means you should eat some dmg for the boost gauge to recover right before you get to face the headbutts everytime. Because getting hit on purpose to build Boost is also a great strategy in Ys!

All in all, I find Yunica is perfectly normal, sure she is not as strong like Toal, but she is not that terrible like you saying either, her playstyle did well enough for the whole Tower and 99% of bosses.

And the 1% I always struggle with is, well, d@mn Dalles, with his 3rd phase in the very last 1/3 of his bar, but against this match is supposed to be 2nd difficult next to Toal v Darm, and it is her final boss so, if you win, it is going to be a d@mn good victory achieved sense too. Other than that is 40-60 against Kishgal, but always be my favorite, and got some best moments out of it too.

[bojangles]

Originally posted by Berahlen:

Text

Yunica's not that slow. She can dodge any boss attack with her movement, jumps, and wind skill if you need it. The wind skill is how I was able to dodge Kishgal's dragons. It's just about positioning and timing. I think I remember occasionally getting hit by a falling icicle while running, but I don't remember if that was exclusive to Yunica or not. And as for Dalles' suction thing, yeah, it's way easier to outrun on Toal, but Yunica can still run fast enough and not get hit by the gravity mines. If you jump or use her magic while the suction is active, it'll pull you in, so you just have to keep running and it won't give you any trouble.

No comment on the combo shockwave thing. That's not something I've ever noticed with her but that's interesting if true.

Her boost reduces the MP cost for skills by half while it's active and possibly makes them do more damage, in addition to reducing damage taken by half. It's not meant to increase her axe damage or attack speed. Read the in-game manual. It tells you what each boost does for each character. I think you're getting Felghana's boost system mixed up with Origin.

Her burst is so-so but it can still be good. It demolishes Epona if you can pin her and her clones against a wall with it, and you can use it to counter Kishgal's burst. I think it's hard to land on Zava even when she's knocked out, if I remember right. Dalles is easy to hit with it during his vulnerability phases in the 2nd and 3rd phase though.

Her i-frame is awkward to use, I agree, but I honestly never felt like I had to resort to using it to dodge anything. The only time I used it was when Dalles used his fire eruption move, but that's moreso me sucking because you can dodge it if you stand in the correct spot. Maybe Yunica's hitbox is bigger though, I dunno.

I didn't have too much trouble dodging Gelaldy's headbutt and dealing enough damage to him to reach the threshold. I didn't use i-frames either. I just moved out of the way and then went back in to attack him. You just gotta get the timing down, I guess?

Yeah, I know about attacking Kishgal during his tornado move with Toal. That's how I beat him. It's still pretty annoying that you have to bait Kishgal into using a specific attack though vs. just attacking him as you please with Yunica from a distance. You probably have better insight on how to deal with him though because for me, I personally gave up on clearing the ground icicles and just jumped my way around them. I also struggled with dodging the falling icicles while he used his other attacks (I have this problem with every character). I found Yunica to be a lot easier because her charged fire move destroyed all the icicles on the field, and I could safely attack him from a distance.

Edit: Oh woops, you said to attack Kishgal during his jumping attack, not the tornado move. Does that even do much damage though? I attacked Kishgal when he used the tornado move with Toal because he's stationary and you can hit him for full damage.

The main issue with Velagunder is the bugs, not the laser. The laser is just an annoyance while you try to clear the bugs. But like I said, Toal has wayyy more difficulty killing the bugs than Yunica because he's gotta get up close and melee them while dealing with a slippery floor. Yunica can use her charged wind skill to deal with them.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

> baiting Kishgal

I didn't know it was even possible to bait him reliably.

[bojangles]

Originally posted by Quint the Alligator Snapper:

> baiting Kishgal

I didn't know it was even possible to bait him reliably.

His tornado move is an anti-air attack. If you jump near him, he has a high chance of using it.