I like the game, but I find some aspects very frustrating

[Headbomb]

Hey!

Recently bought the game, since I heard a lot of good stuff about it, and my first impression was that it's HARD. "Hard" hard, especially since you have to throw away some prior knowledge, because things don't work exactly the same way. You *will* take damage, your dash isn't spammable, characters vary greatly and so does difficulty within a chapter. Nothing major, though, sadly, it adds up with next point.

The starting character you get is Scarlet, which, in my opinion, isn't a great choice. To clarifty - I played exclusively solo, wanted to check the game out before gifting it to my friend to play together. Scarlet is a character with rather complex set:
1) she fights in melee, which is difficult when you don't know what to expect from the enemies
2) she uses combo mechanic, which adds complexity
3) her special isn't very noob-friendly
4) her defence has no displacement and can be interrupted easily when panicking (which you will)
5) she has two forms with different set of abilities, again, complexity
6) you have no control over the form, and have no built-in healing

All of these are not game-breaking separately, but I can't say that my first run was exactly enjoyable. I got to the second chapter due to the sheer amount of feathers you get on lowest difficulty, which felt terrible, like I was being carried.

Then I tried Pied Piper, who, in my opinion, is way, way better for learning the ropes. You still have day and night mechanics, but there is no stark difference, and your Trait is fire-and-forget. I didn't get very far because of constant chip damage, overall low health pool and poor build choices, but I really appreciated the atmosphere and overall style of the game. It's honestly incredible, the voice acting alone is very enjoyable, even if some lines can get repetitive.

Then I got to Beowulf. I killed the final boss on the first try. It was... bizzare. His range is greater than Scarlet's daggers, he has a lot of AoE burst damage, his health pool is greater, and most of all - healing through trait and defence. It's reliable, it has a long duration and it's adaptable. Piper's defence doesn't push all the enemies away nor guarantees a stun, Scarlet's cloak is also used for damage and can be unavailable when you need it for defence, and her howl is... let me get to combat.

I already mentioned dashes being a last-resort option instead of a reposition tool. Even with extra charges and cooldown reduction they are still precious. Rationing dashes is paramount to surviving. My first impression was that ideally you are not supposed to take damage at all like in many other roguelikes. This isn't the case, and the reason for that is hordes of enemies turning the game into bullet hell. First - visibility. Once there are more than three different enemy types - it's nigh impossible to react to them all in time, and their attacks tend to overlap. I have a particular disdain towards cultists with knives running at you to deal a flurry of strikes and heal up from that, because once they start running - they keep targeting you for a good amount of time. You can dodge through one, but if there is another and they are not synchronized in attacks - you will get hit. Not dodging is not an option - their first attack will hit you if you try to simply walk backwards.

Overlapping attacks becomes a real problem with lasting effects or slower projectiles: shamans summoning lighting strikes limit your movement options, elite shamans shoot homing projectiles at you, and Rukh birds are covering the whole area with burning feathers. Luckily, such cases are mostly reserved for red points of interest, so you can be prepared. Minor point about nightmare tentacles - I find their pattern of projectiles very difficult to dodge. Each new wave is just off enough for a few degrees that you can't stay still, but also can't dodge - you will end up eating another projectile. Running straight is punished by other enemies - tentacles on the first boss, for example.

Then come something I've seen people complain about - cultist healers. I get it - prioritize them or outdamage their healing output. Solid enemy in terms of game design. However, their healing amount is absurd, their health is decent, they can spawn in pairs and they also can be of corrupted variety. Add something like big spiders summonnig smaller spiders or Rukhs spawning smaller birds and you're in for a miserable experience if you don't have strong burst damage. I fought them as Pied Piper, first chapter. I lost three feathers on third difficulty and barely came out alive. Day attack, power and ultimate don't pierce enemies, so I had to get very close to healers to deal damage to them. I had vuln and chill on my special and an explosion on top - I couldn't kill a regular healer in one burst. Over time spiders multiplied, treants' roots kept grabbing me, nightmare kept shooting red triangles and healers kept healing themselves. Same thing happened on Wukong, except I died faster. It was very frustrating, "mash Esc and close the game" frustrating.

I don't know how things go in multiplayer. I assume it's a bit easier, because enemies spread their attention and you benefit from some abilities your friend uses, but I hesitant recommending a game after stuff likle this happens.

Then we also have regular balance issues, can't avoid them in any game. I'll say four things:
1) Mermaid's heal-and-reposition R has no competition. It's absurdly strong, can be used to heal out of combat, grants you invulnerability, moves you a huge distance and has very short cooldown on top of already having a defence ability that does similar stuff. It also feels amazing to use. Please, make reposition is singing form a base-kit thing.
2) All characters on lvl1 should have an enjoyable build available straight away. In my run I've made it to the final boss as Geppetto on the first try and I had to kill the hands over and over again, because while I have enough sustained damage and survivability, my burst was lacking and my mobility was non-existent.
3) As far as I saw, there are no screen-cleansing abilities. It would be nice on Wukong to clear all nearby enemy projectiles on successful defence, same for other underused defensive abilities and talents.
4) A lot of abilities root you in place while casting. I've noticed this a lot on Snow Queen. Some talents "improve" your skills, but in reality they force you to stand in one place longer. You can't dash or use a defence skill during the cast and end up eating unnecessary damage. I understand the idea that you need to chose a good moment to attack, but with hordes of enemies it's simply not feasible. The bosses are a good example, where getting rooted for even a second can result in taking a lot of damage, and using your abilities sparingly leads to long waits for openings. As time to kill increases, so do your chances to make mistakes and take damage.

Overall, I want to say that I love the game, but there is always a feeling at the back of my head that I'm not really enjoying it while playing.

[DeMasked]

It has a hard learning curve initially but eventually things will make a lot of sense when it comes to prioritising certain areas.

Single Player has a ton less enemies to deal with while multiplayer can be more chaotic.

Starting a new character can feel kinda meh because you lack the talents to set up really good builds. It is more of a first run feel for the character starting at 1. Full clear on Easy should get you to like level 3 which will open up better more cohesive builds.

One other thing you have to learn is that Item Combos are really good. Imo it's good to save re rolls for trying to get 3x, 4x, 5x. Look at the shop to see what item purchases you can get like the one with 2 common items you can to get first after getting a green chest so you get 3x easily - same for Rare / Epic.


As for Characters, Scarlet is a bit harder because she is melee and you are getting used to enemy movesets which is more difficult to deal with a melee character. Human form you need to be more careful while waiting for night to regain health in wolf form + whenever you switch forms your cooldowns go down so keep that in mind. I just did a normal difficulty 4 player run playing Scarlet and I got insanely lucky with items leading me to dealing over 1 million damage due to a dash attack build lol. Everyone else had like 250-350k or so.

You want to learn to prioritise certain things.
Places of Interest:
Green -> Vision Tower / Chest / Dream Crystal -> Book
Yellow -> Vision Tower / Chest / Dream Crystal -> Quest / Book
Red -> Chest / Dream Crystal -> Quest / Book (some quests are a bit harder)

Vision Tower early on for getting an easy level up for a talent which can be a huge upgrade at times. Chest for building out what sort of build you are going for. Dream Crystal to boost your item combo if possible or increasing talents. Book for power scaling or just getting more Dream Crystals for shop. Quests are really good for exp, Dream Crystal and Legendary item.

Healing Fountains you can to try and get (more max hp), large Dream Crystals you may want to sneak to get or kill nearby enemies. Corruption Arenas can give exp and make bosses easier but usually you can just skip them to get everything else for better player progression in power.

For me the concern for the game would be replay value. More rng added to the base game would make this game shine a lot more imo. Balance in regard to Characters / Talents would be ongoing.

Siren's Teleport Heal is good but doesn't scale well unless you support it and it becomes more of an added movement ability - whereas say the Weaken is a % debuff that scales more easily.

Wukong is a more difficult hero because of his Trait but if set up well and you know how to play him a bit more easily he can really destroy enemies and do a ton of damage.

Starting the game is figuring things out, getting a feel for characters and importantly unlocking more talents to support builds better for subsequent runs. Learning what item sets can do is also super important. Sometimes RNG will make you a monster for damage lol. Like having... 3 dash charges where after each dash I get a guaranteed crit with massive crit damage + a Scarlet talent that makes your attack after dashing deal a ton of damage. Combined with a Legendary Item that gives enemies vulnerability when you dash through them...? 1 million+ damage lol.

edit: I beat the game on normal with the first try playing Melusine and the Geppetto. This was after learning about the game with the other characters + some luck in regard to item combos.

edit: For me I don't like Aladdin initially because his Trait / First Ultimate is tied to Dream Crystals. He has some interesting move sets and can still deal a ton of damage, I just don't like running around not being able to use my Ultimate because it costs 150 Dream Crystal (he's weird that way).

[DeMasked]

Also checking out the game guide can help a bit.

[Headbomb]

I, uh, know all of that, but thank you. I've played all characters multiple times by now, on every difficulty. Things I described are not related to game knowledge. Regarding siren's teleport talent - the reason why it is so strong is not because it heals, but because it does so much in one package

[Samseng Yik]

Strange, Scarlet is 1 of the much stronger melee hero in my mind.
On the other hand the Beowulf is 1 of the weaker one.

1 thing about this game is, every heroes play much quite differently.

[Headbomb]

Originally posted by Samseng Yik:

Strange, Scarlet is 1 of the much stronger melee hero in my mind.
On the other hand the Beowulf is 1 of the weaker one.

1 thing about this game is, every heroes play much quite differently.

I didn't say that she sin't strong. She can easily oneshot most enemies with power. I said she isn't a great choice for a starter character

[Duze]

I had the same feeling as you, first run with Scarlet feel meeh.
Then I try Pied Pipper and began to apperciate the game. ^^
Now I like them all, except Scarlett who I'm still really not a fan of.

In my experience, single-player is much simpler than multiplayer.
Fewer enemies, less HP/DMG & above all, you control the direction of their attack since you're their only target.
You'll be taking lost bullets in multiplayer, whereas in single-player you should be dodging almost everything with ease.
Well, I suppose it depends also on who you're playing with too. x)

[Abu Hajaar]

It genuinely sounds like the game is too hard for you. Use the in built modifiers to make it less challenging, that way every level 1 hero has a ''viable'' build.

[Headbomb]

Originally posted by Abu Hajaar:

It genuinely sounds like the game is too hard for you. Use the in built modifiers to make it less challenging, that way every level 1 hero has a ''viable'' build.

I've beaten it on all difficulties, but last? I know about modifiers. That's not the point. The point is that I had a run on lvl1 Geppetto, where I really struggled to beat the final boss because none of my abilities had a bonus to mobility. There was only one option, it was very early on, and I missed it. It should be that one character can clear everything, but the final boss.

[DeMasked]

Originally posted by Headbomb:

Originally posted by Abu Hajaar:

It genuinely sounds like the game is too hard for you. Use the in built modifiers to make it less challenging, that way every level 1 hero has a ''viable'' build.

I've beaten it on all difficulties, but last? I know about modifiers. That's not the point. The point is that I had a run on lvl1 Geppetto, where I really struggled to beat the final boss because none of my abilities had a bonus to mobility. There was only one option, it was very early on, and I missed it. It should be that one character can clear everything, but the final boss.

I beat the game on normal difficulty first try with Geppetto. You don't need more mobility beyond the initial dodge but if you feel like having more is fine you can get items that give additional dash charges.

[Aetemes]

Melusine's trait does not heal out of combat.

Where is the "skill issue" comment in this thread xD! too easy!

Check out positive4ce on youtube, he has videos of every character doing things, and multiple ideas.

I hate to be "mean"..but..like 15 hours...just play a little more and be patient...this game barely has any content tbh if it wasn't for the RNG in the way to spice it up, which is how this type of genre tries to squeeze hours of playtime. Frankly even the RNG of this game is "not that bad" there's a fair amount of things you can "work with", but sometimes...the combination of things you get, is just not that great, and I just take it ok...bleh bad run...try again.

Maybe on your Beo run you landed on a lot of good rng things, but your Geppetto you did not (try the rocket pack trait if you hate his mobility).

But tbh you're giving "you can't tell me nothing" vibes..which is like...ok you're perfect, game is crap - DEVS SCARTCH 1.0 DELETE PLZ.

[Headbomb]

Originally posted by Aetemes:

Melusine's trait does not heal out of combat.

Where is the "skill issue" comment in this thread xD! too easy!

Check out positive4ce on youtube, he has videos of every character doing things, and multiple ideas.

I hate to be "mean"..but..like 15 hours...just play a little more and be patient...this game barely has any content tbh if it wasn't for the RNG in the way to spice it up, which is how this type of genre tries to squeeze hours of playtime. Frankly even the RNG of this game is "not that bad" there's a fair amount of things you can "work with", but sometimes...the combination of things you get, is just not that great, and I just take it ok...bleh bad run...try again.

Maybe on your Beo run you landed on a lot of good rng things, but your Geppetto you did not (try the rocket pack trait if you hate his mobility).

But tbh you're giving "you can't tell me nothing" vibes..which is like...ok you're perfect, game is crap - DEVS SCARTCH 1.0 DELETE PLZ.

The point is to give feedback. I've described what happened, what I felt and why I think I felt that way. 15h is more than enough for that. You can't "skill issue" away first experience.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check them out

[DeMasked]

Originally posted by Headbomb:

Originally posted by Aetemes:

Melusine's trait does not heal out of combat.

Where is the "skill issue" comment in this thread xD! too easy!

Check out positive4ce on youtube, he has videos of every character doing things, and multiple ideas.

I hate to be "mean"..but..like 15 hours...just play a little more and be patient...this game barely has any content tbh if it wasn't for the RNG in the way to spice it up, which is how this type of genre tries to squeeze hours of playtime. Frankly even the RNG of this game is "not that bad" there's a fair amount of things you can "work with", but sometimes...the combination of things you get, is just not that great, and I just take it ok...bleh bad run...try again.

Maybe on your Beo run you landed on a lot of good rng things, but your Geppetto you did not (try the rocket pack trait if you hate his mobility).

But tbh you're giving "you can't tell me nothing" vibes..which is like...ok you're perfect, game is crap - DEVS SCARTCH 1.0 DELETE PLZ.

The point is to give feedback. I've described what happened, what I felt and why I think I felt that way. 15h is more than enough for that. You can't "skill issue" away first experience.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check them out

Yea I don't need to play the game that long to know that I don't like how Aladdin's Ultimate and Trait work when it comes to being tied to Dream Crystals.

Playing through an entire round without using his first ultimate is janky. Another time I only used it twice at the end boss. Maybe some people like that... I don't. Rest of his kit is fine.

[Samseng Yik]

"I don't get very far because of constant chip damage"
OMG look at this weak skilled player !
He probably also will never assume his skill will improve

[DeMasked]

Originally posted by Samseng Yik:

"I don't get very far because of constant chip damage"
OMG look at this weak skilled player !
He probably also will never assume his skill will improve

Well some characters initially are a lot more glass cannon and don't have innate healing or shields.

I agree that initially the game can feel difficult but repeated playthroughs it can get rather easy to know what to do.

[Headbomb]

Originally posted by Samseng Yik:

"I don't get very far because of constant chip damage"
OMG look at this weak skilled player !
He probably also will never assume his skill will improve

I've described why I took chip damage and why it led me to believe that it is unavoidable. You can't have both "every attack is dodgeable" and "here is 10 enemies in a pack healing each other". I've said that it's only an issue on Pied Piper, because his burst isn't strong enough to kill a healer and his daytime attack requires you to be on top of them, risking further