Enemy boss invulnerability sections is incompetent design

[Phantom]

There I said it

Having to dodge enemies for 15 seconds every 5 seconds in a fight is just poor design

[rlh445]

引用自 Shadowzyx：

I think it's bad design, mostly because it's litterally the genre main objective : thinking about your build to end up wiping entire maps in seconds, and same goes for bosses IMO.

exactly, *in your opinion*. these games main objectives can be many things, and 'wiping everything even bosses' isn't usually one of them. the bosses are often the most infuriating part of these games, lol.

also this game is pretty much a stomp. if you've played 20 minutes till *dawn* lol, then you shouldn't have any complaints at all about this game. i've 100%'d that game and mostly EVERYONE there whines that the only hard boss is the deer boss and the pumpkin patch bosses and they'd like more harder stuff. so what's the deal with having to work a tiny bit at the end of the stages here, i wonder.

let's not even get into SS lol. THAT game is much, much more challenging in every way and much more grindy too. can't believe anyone coming from that game would even blink at anything in nordic ashes.

[Shadowzyx]

引用自 author=rlh445：

exactly, *in your opinion*. these games main objectives can be many things, and 'wiping everything even bosses' isn't usually one of them. the bosses are often the most infuriating part of these games, lol.

Most games of the genre are about doing a maximum of damage in the shortest timeframe possible, and there's plenty of examples. In every game I mentioned, if your build is good enough, you can even AFK and you'd still win.

引用自 rlh445：

also this game is pretty much a stomp. if you've played 20 minutes till *dawn* lol, then you shouldn't have any complaints at all about this game. i've 100%'d that game and mostly EVERYONE there whines that the only hard boss is the deer boss and the pumpkin patch bosses and they'd like more harder stuff. so what's the deal with having to work a tiny bit at the end of the stages here, i wonder.

Hard =/= "unfair". Regarding that particular mechanic of bosses invulneraility, it does not seem "fair" that you make the best build possible, melting waves of enemies, even stage bosses, and then you can expect the main boss will go the same way, but no. Not mentioning that it pretty much breaks the flow of the fight.
As an other example, Astrid is in a sense a bit better because the length of her healing phase depends on your build as well : you have direct influence over the course of the fight, which is not true when the boss just goes 100% invulnerable

引用自 rlh445：

let's not even get into SS lol. THAT game is much, much more challenging in every way and much more grindy too. can't believe anyone coming from that game would even blink at anything in nordic ashes.[/unquote]

Have you played SS, or looked at player builds ? There are build that OS bosses in Overlord 5-6 that get posted on the subreddit on a daily basis. The game is challenging at first, but when you get enough experience of the mechanics, you can melt *everything*, bosses included. And again, no invulnerability phases in SS, if it's hard it's not because of some wrongly designed mechanics.

Side note once again, a Crab Champions update led to pretty much the same discussion, and this time everyone agreed that the mechanic was bad and asked for its removal.

Don't get me wrong, I like Nordic Ashes, even though it's far from perfect for the time being. I just don't like this mechanic in particular, it might even not be *hard*, but it surely breaks the flow of the game. (of any game tbh)

[DxDark]

引用自 rlh445：

Ah I'm sorry. I guess I didn't like the 'incompetent' word since just because someone doesn't like something doesn't make it incompetent.

What does someones like or dislike have to do with the developers inability to think a decision will have a abnormal outcome and fix/balance it? Objectivity isn't an opinion...something that can dust you in a limited amount of hits, with a varying ability to dodge or outrun damage sources, is flat out not competent design: the goal isn't to kill the player or leave them with minimal ability to succeed, it's to allow for amble ability to get around the hurdle made available and only decrease it on harder difficulties....5 second windows to damage something across a fight you want to run for 4 minutes is incompetence when you have enemies run on HP...do the damn math and adjust it accordingly.

[HereIsPlenty]

Dark, you are throwing words around like objectivity yet you are not being objective. The boss fights are not a problem, in my opinion - in your opinion they are. That is where objectivity goes out the window - we have a difference of opinions. Honestly, learn to use English effectively and stop trying to score points against people.

You also claim that something is incompetent design. Simply put, the problem is not the game. Does this mean I am Gatekeeping? I don't think so but enough people manage to play it without complaining that it is too hard. It is generally hailed as being one of the easiest games in the genre.

[Secanho]

You are way overpowered when u arrive at the final boss. Dancing for a few seconds shouldnt be a problem.

These kind of games are meant for you to unlock things by playing over and over again. It's only hard in the beggining (unless you are playing hardcore VI++ in Asgard)

[Secanho]

2.7 hours zzzzzzzzzz

As I expect u barely scratched the game and are already complaining

[DxDark]

引用自 HereIsPlenty：

Dark, you are throwing words around like objectivity yet you are not being objective.

You might want to look up Objective and Observation.

Pull out a stop watch and time how long a boss is in invulnerability, what invulnerability YOU have WITHOUT UPGRADES, how often the Boss and Additionals attacks or get close enough to attack, and stand there until the invulnerability stage ends: congratulations, that's how many times they want to attempt to hit and kill you you while you can't do anything to stop it.
Multiply that by however many times it happens (assuming you don't die the first go around) in the fight before you DO kill it : that's how long...

O B J E C T I V L E Y (assuming you think they balanced the boss)

...they want you to be there, how 'hard' they want it to be.

They don't want players one-shotting bosses....aka "Dancing for a few seconds shouldn't be a problem." is OBJECTIVELY N O T what they want to happen, and your stupid assumption (aka subjectivity) that you're overpowered when you get there (more subjectivity) is hilarious (objectively), since some items are utterly useless by themselves (objectively, since upgrading and item synergies are the point of the game) and require other build items to do the bare minimum of reasonable damage, clear swarms, or not be a hindrance to other upgrades as you might need to reroll them to make them work. And then they may not even spawn, so OOF, they also don't want you to be OP every. single. run.

Almost as if Rogue-like and Rogue-lite (you are here) are a genre of game that wants RNG to be a deciding factor in if you are even able to upgrade to being partially powerful at 0:00, and then it's still a tossup going forward for replayability sake.

引用自 Secanho：

2.7 hours zzzzzzzzzz

As if I'm going to argue with a card farmer and achievement modder on playtime...

[HereIsPlenty]

Damn, son, you wanna be less angry in your posts. I will wait till you have played the game a little longer and let us know if you still feel it is too hard for you. Most people revise their opinions a little but maybe you will still blame the game and not the player, who knows.

I am not some pro player yet I have no problem with Nordic Ashes.

[Zervun]

Over 100 hours myself in the game and well worth the money. Doesn't mean we can't have criticisms and would like to see the game improved. Especially if they continue to release content.

I'm in the boss invulnerability camp that it's just boring and is a serious downer in the game. I'm fine with it being on some of them but on all of them really gets old and as you level up not challenging at all once you know the patterns, it is just run around for the most part.

The main issue is that it is a crutch and eliminates your build entirely when it happens. Once you get them figured out it is also super easy.

The one-shot argument I don't agree with. Bosses could have way more HP and/or do special things like disable traits/weapons or something, make an area effect have 80% less damage, slowing, or whatever.

Game is well worth the money and I want to see it succeed but the boss invulnerability mechanic is just not fun. I think it actually puts it into easy mode once you learn it and there is no real challenge. Run around then bam instant damage on the boss, then run around, etc.

If the bosses had more special effects/things and/or drastically increased HP it would be more fun.

[HereIsPlenty]

Zervun, i see your point but the boss invulnerability is just a core mechanic of the game. Like dodging red circles in Soulstone Survivors. If all Survivors games played the same it would be boring as hell.

[GaviJa]

Many games have that. Not necessarly in the form of invulnerability, but sometimes just a bullet hell you cannot do ♥♥♥♥ if you don't avoid it.

[0blivioN]

Boss invulnerability that isn't "breakable" is just pure boring. They are all easy either way and delaying their inevitable defeat is just a waste of the player's time.

[Zervun]

引用自 HereIsPlenty：

Zervun, i see your point but the boss invulnerability is just a core mechanic of the game. Like dodging red circles in Soulstone Survivors. If all Survivors games played the same it would be boring as hell.

Guess I just disagree. I don't think it's unique at all having the invulnerability phases. The majority of the game is kick ass, great builds and graphics and based around a build and then wham when you hit the bosses it's 95% of the time spent in invulnerability and running around - when you can do literally zero damage, not even a little bit. When it wears off a second later you have done the next stage of damage in a second and it repeats. This makes your build pretty pointless, once you level up it doesn't really matter. You can pick about the crappiest build and still win.

It's probably an issue you can max out all trees for the most part but thats a different subject.

If it was a boss or two with this mechanic it would be different but they are pretty much mostly the same.

I can't comment on Soulstone survivors but I have over a 100 hours in vampire survivors and at least 30 in halls of torment. Neither of those uses the invulnerability mechanic. The bosses just do unique stuff where you can damage them the whole time making your build important.

We should not be able to hit 25% - 33% of damage in 1 second on a boss (normally without some insane build), then just run around while they are invulnerable. Then rinse and repeat until it's down. It makes your build irrelevant.

[0blivioN]

How about tying the invul phases to time instead of HP triggers? For example on Ragnar, make him go to his first invul phase after (for example) 3 seconds - if the player has enough DPS to kill him before that then let it be. Second phase after another 5 seconds and 3rd phase after another 5.

[HereIsPlenty]

That seems reasonable, fits the basic themed mechanic. I don't think the dev wants us to oneshot them though, its less than 3 seconds sometimes.