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Siegfried 13 ABR 2023 a las 6:17 a. m.
Offhand Versatility VS Whirlwind Attack for SWF Longsword Monk
Hi!

I've built a SWF Longsword Monk according to Dough's advice from this thread:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/206480/discussions/0/4943253385007409625/?ctp=2

However, I run into quite a dilemma.

At level 18, which feat should I pick between Offhand Versatility and Whirlwind Attack ?

Since I'm SWF, offhand versatility will only add 25% damage to my melee attacks.
I've heard that WWA used to be bread and butter attack for monk before, but I've already got spring attack for AOE. So should I pick Offhand Versatility over WWA ?


This is the feat that I've picked so far.

L1 [Monk] - Dodge (Monk bonus: Mobility) Human: Single Weapon Fighting
L2 [Fighter] - (Fighter auto: Longsword Proficiency) Fighter: Weapon Focus: Slashing
L3 [Monk] - Precision (Monk bonus: Whirling Steel Strike)
L4 [Monk] - Choose a Path: Harmonious Balance
L6 [Monk] - Knight's Training
L7 [Monk] - Monk Bonus: Spring Attack
L9 [Monk] - Improved Single Weapon Fighting
L12 [Monk] - Improved Critical: Slashing
L15 [Monk] - Greater Single Weapon Fighting
L18 [Monk] - Offhand Versatility or WWA ???

Thanks in advance for the answers!
Última edición por Siegfried; 13 ABR 2023 a las 8:53 a. m.
Publicado originalmente por Doug:
Excellent list of Feats. Pretty close to ideal, so far, for a SWF build. (Granted, SWF is a niche build. DDO usually throws mobs at you in large groups, so it's more common to build for multi-target capability.) Edit: HAHA.. No wonder I think it's close to ideal: it's MY recommendations! I didn't recognize 'Dough' as me; should've, though, my Dutch grandmother used to address my birthday cards that way. :)

First, Offhand Versatility: You've misrepresented (overstated) its effect. It does NOT add 25% to your damage. It increases the effect of your ability modifier by 25%. Let's assume you're a WIs-based Monk using the Falconry tree so that Wisdom is your to-hit and damage stat (works the same with any other, but that's the ideal for a Monk). That means that, by default, you add the BONUS for your Wisdom to your attack rolls and damage rolls. As you gain higher SWF Feats, you instead add MORE than your Wis bonus to your damage, you in fact multiply your Wis bonus. (Your stat bonus is the + from your stat; mathematically it's (Stat - 10)/2. If your Stat is 30, you have a +10 stat bonus. It's clearly listed on your Character Sheet beside each stat.)

Here's the bonuses:

SWF - Normal: 1 * stat bonus added to damage (same as everyone else)
ISWF - 1.25 * stat bonus added to damage
GSWF - 1.5 * stat bonus added to damage
PSWF (Epic) - 1.75 * stat bonus added to damage
Offhand Versatility - +0.25 * stat bonus added to damage

In other words, if you have GSWF and OV, you add 1.75 * your Wis bonus to your damage instead of 1.5 * your Wis bonus. That's considerably less than adding 25% to your melee damage.

Second, WWA: A second AoE attack will not be wasted.
Background - WWA used to not work as advertised for anyone but Monks (In fact, I THINK it was limited to Monks with handwraps, but don't quote me on that.).
The issue was twofold: One, it's supposed to hit all the mobs around you twice, but for everyone but Monks (handwrap Monks?) it only actually hit once. Two, the animation for it was ridiculously long, making it a net loss of DPS vs simply continuing to attack.. at least in cases where you had other ways to hit multiple mobs, like Cleave/Great Cleave. With SWF, you're mostly single-target, so the total DPS could be higher if you were surrounded by mobs, even with the bugged Feat. As mentioned on the thread where you got this build, DDO seldom presents us with individual mobs, so the ability to hit multiple mobs is very useful. It's multiplied even further if you can get Sneak Attack damage on all of them.

DDOWiki currently claims WWA has been fixed. I've not tested that, and I can't find a definitive thread on the subject on the official forums.

Based on the above, the overwhelming recommendation would be WWA. It provides a better increase in damage (+5[W]) and hits multiple targets. If it works as advertised, it's a FAR better option.

If it does not, and you find that you don't like it, there's always the option for a Feat swap at Fred the friendly Mindflayer in House Jorasco. You can pay him with Plat & a Flawless Siberys Dragonshard (Available as a Favor reward from the Argonnessen Patron if you run Gianthold), or with a Feat Exchange Token (once per life) by running Lockania's Dragonmark quest in the Harbor. (It's a Flawless Siberys Dragonshard because of your level. Every 4 levels, the purity of Dragonshard required for a Feat swap goes up: Flawed, Imperfect, normal, Exceptional, and Flawless from L16 right up through Epics.)

In short, it's well worth giving WWA a try.
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Doug 13 ABR 2023 a las 8:32 a. m. 
Excellent list of Feats. Pretty close to ideal, so far, for a SWF build. (Granted, SWF is a niche build. DDO usually throws mobs at you in large groups, so it's more common to build for multi-target capability.) Edit: HAHA.. No wonder I think it's close to ideal: it's MY recommendations! I didn't recognize 'Dough' as me; should've, though, my Dutch grandmother used to address my birthday cards that way. :)

First, Offhand Versatility: You've misrepresented (overstated) its effect. It does NOT add 25% to your damage. It increases the effect of your ability modifier by 25%. Let's assume you're a WIs-based Monk using the Falconry tree so that Wisdom is your to-hit and damage stat (works the same with any other, but that's the ideal for a Monk). That means that, by default, you add the BONUS for your Wisdom to your attack rolls and damage rolls. As you gain higher SWF Feats, you instead add MORE than your Wis bonus to your damage, you in fact multiply your Wis bonus. (Your stat bonus is the + from your stat; mathematically it's (Stat - 10)/2. If your Stat is 30, you have a +10 stat bonus. It's clearly listed on your Character Sheet beside each stat.)

Here's the bonuses:

SWF - Normal: 1 * stat bonus added to damage (same as everyone else)
ISWF - 1.25 * stat bonus added to damage
GSWF - 1.5 * stat bonus added to damage
PSWF (Epic) - 1.75 * stat bonus added to damage
Offhand Versatility - +0.25 * stat bonus added to damage

In other words, if you have GSWF and OV, you add 1.75 * your Wis bonus to your damage instead of 1.5 * your Wis bonus. That's considerably less than adding 25% to your melee damage.

Second, WWA: A second AoE attack will not be wasted.
Background - WWA used to not work as advertised for anyone but Monks (In fact, I THINK it was limited to Monks with handwraps, but don't quote me on that.).
The issue was twofold: One, it's supposed to hit all the mobs around you twice, but for everyone but Monks (handwrap Monks?) it only actually hit once. Two, the animation for it was ridiculously long, making it a net loss of DPS vs simply continuing to attack.. at least in cases where you had other ways to hit multiple mobs, like Cleave/Great Cleave. With SWF, you're mostly single-target, so the total DPS could be higher if you were surrounded by mobs, even with the bugged Feat. As mentioned on the thread where you got this build, DDO seldom presents us with individual mobs, so the ability to hit multiple mobs is very useful. It's multiplied even further if you can get Sneak Attack damage on all of them.

DDOWiki currently claims WWA has been fixed. I've not tested that, and I can't find a definitive thread on the subject on the official forums.

Based on the above, the overwhelming recommendation would be WWA. It provides a better increase in damage (+5[W]) and hits multiple targets. If it works as advertised, it's a FAR better option.

If it does not, and you find that you don't like it, there's always the option for a Feat swap at Fred the friendly Mindflayer in House Jorasco. You can pay him with Plat & a Flawless Siberys Dragonshard (Available as a Favor reward from the Argonnessen Patron if you run Gianthold), or with a Feat Exchange Token (once per life) by running Lockania's Dragonmark quest in the Harbor. (It's a Flawless Siberys Dragonshard because of your level. Every 4 levels, the purity of Dragonshard required for a Feat swap goes up: Flawed, Imperfect, normal, Exceptional, and Flawless from L16 right up through Epics.)

In short, it's well worth giving WWA a try.
Última edición por Doug; 13 ABR 2023 a las 9:25 a. m.
Siegfried 13 ABR 2023 a las 8:57 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Doug:
Excellent list of Feats. Pretty close to ideal, so far, for a SWF build. (Granted, SWF is a niche build. DDO usually throws mobs at you in large groups, so it's more common to build for multi-target capability.) Edit: HAHA.. No wonder I think it's close to ideal: it's MY recommendations! I didn't recognize 'Dough' as me; should've, though, my Dutch grandmother used to address my birthday cards that way. :)

First, Offhand Versatility: You've misrepresented (overstated) its effect. It does NOT add 25% to your damage. It increases the effect of your ability modifier by 25%. Let's assume you're a WIs-based Monk using the Falconry tree so that Wisdom is your to-hit and damage stat (works the same with any other, but that's the ideal for a Monk). That means that, by default, you add the BONUS for your Wisdom to your attack rolls and damage rolls. As you gain higher SWF Feats, you instead add MORE than your Wis bonus to your damage, you in fact multiply your Wis bonus. (Your stat bonus is the + from your stat; mathematically it's (Stat - 10)/2. If your Stat is 30, you have a +10 stat bonus. It's clearly listed on your Character Sheet beside each stat.)

Here's the bonuses:

SWF - Normal: 1 * stat bonus added to damage (same as everyone else)
ISWF - 1.25 * stat bonus added to damage
GSWF - 1.5 * stat bonus added to damage
PSWF (Epic) - 1.75 * stat bonus added to damage
Offhand Versatility - +0.25 * stat bonus added to damage

In other words, if you have GSWF and OV, you add 1.75 * your Wis bonus to your damage instead of 1.5 * your Wis bonus. That's considerably less than adding 25% to your melee damage.

Second, WWA: A second AoE attack will not be wasted.
Background - WWA used to not work as advertised for anyone but Monks (In fact, I THINK it was limited to Monks with handwraps, but don't quote me on that.).
The issue was twofold: One, it's supposed to hit all the mobs around you twice, but for everyone but Monks (handwrap Monks?) it only actually hit once. Two, the animation for it was ridiculously long, making it a net loss of DPS vs simply continuing to attack.. at least in cases where you had other ways to hit multiple mobs, like Cleave/Great Cleave. With SWF, you're mostly single-target, so the total DPS could be higher if you were surrounded by mobs, even with the bugged Feat. As mentioned on the thread where you got this build, DDO seldom presents us with individual mobs, so the ability to hit multiple mobs is very useful. It's multiplied even further if you can get Sneak Attack damage on all of them.

So you could actually add Cleave to your list of options, if you don't already have an Enhancement-granted equivalent.

DDOWiki currently claims WWA has been fixed. I've not tested that, and I can't find a definitive thread on the subject on the official forums.

Based on the above, the overwhelming recommendation would be WWA. It provides a better increase in damage (+5[W]) and hits multiple targets. If it works as advertised, it's a FAR better option.

If it does not, and you find that you don't like it, there's always the option for a Feat swap at Fred the friendly Mindflayer in House Jorasco. You can pay him with Plat & a Flawless Siberys Dragonshard (Available as a Favor reward from the Argonnessen Patron if you run Gianthold), or with a Feat Exchange Token (once per life) by running Lockania's Dragonmark quest in the Harbor. (It's a Flawless Siberys Dragonshard because of your level. Every 4 levels, the purity of Dragonshard required for a Feat swap goes up: Flawed, Imperfect, normal, Exceptional, and Flawless from L16 right up through Epics.

Wow, thanks again Doug!! Great to see you still being active, and sorry for misspelling your name!
Siegfried 15 ABR 2023 a las 7:21 a. m. 
After much deliberation I've came up with a more completed feat build (with epic level and all). If you see anything that could be improved, please feel free to comment.


L1 [Monk] - Dodge (Monk bonus: Mobility) Human: Single Weapon Fighting
L2 [Fighter] - (Fighter auto: Longsword Proficiency) Fighter: Weapon Focus: Slashing
L3 [Monk] - Precision (Monk bonus: Whirling Steel Strike)
L4 [Monk] - Choose a Path: Harmonious Balance
L6 [Monk] - Knight's Training
L7 [Monk] - Monk Bonus: Spring Attack
L9 [Monk] - Improved Single Weapon Fighting
L12 [Monk] - Improved Critical: Slashing
L15 [Monk] - Greater Single Weapon Fighting
L18 [Monk] - Whirlwind Attack
L20 [Fighter] - Offhand versatility (Fighter auto: second wind)
L21 Overwhelming Critical
L22 Doublestrike
L24 Improved Martial Arts
L25 Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
L27 Blinding Speed
L28 Harbinger of Chaos
L30 Epic Damage Reduction+Scion of the Astral Plane
L31 Elusive Target
Doug 15 ABR 2023 a las 7:52 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Siegfried:
After much deliberation I've came up with a more completed feat build (with epic level and all). If you see anything that could be improved, please feel free to comment.


L1 [Monk] - Dodge (Monk bonus: Mobility) Human: Single Weapon Fighting
L2 [Fighter] - (Fighter auto: Longsword Proficiency) Fighter: Weapon Focus: Slashing
L3 [Monk] - Precision (Monk bonus: Whirling Steel Strike)
L4 [Monk] - Choose a Path: Harmonious Balance
L6 [Monk] - Knight's Training
L7 [Monk] - Monk Bonus: Spring Attack
L9 [Monk] - Improved Single Weapon Fighting
L12 [Monk] - Improved Critical: Slashing
L15 [Monk] - Greater Single Weapon Fighting
L18 [Monk] - Whirlwind Attack
L20 [Fighter] - Offhand versatility (Fighter auto: second wind)
L21 Overwhelming Critical
L22 Doublestrike
L24 Improved Martial Arts
L25 Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
L27 Blinding Speed
L28 Harbinger of Chaos
L30 Epic Damage Reduction+Scion of the Astral Plane
L31 Elusive Target

Before actually looking at other options for the same levels, I feel I should point out that as a Monk you are Lawful, which means that half of the benefits of Harbinger of Chaos won't apply (the +2 Imbue dice). Might still be worthwhile for the 2% Doublestrike, though. I'll get back to you on my thoughts on that and the rest.
Doug 15 ABR 2023 a las 8:29 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Siegfried:
After much deliberation I've came up with a more completed feat build (with epic level and all). If you see anything that could be improved, please feel free to comment.


L1 [Monk] - Dodge (Monk bonus: Mobility) Human: Single Weapon Fighting
L2 [Fighter] - (Fighter auto: Longsword Proficiency) Fighter: Weapon Focus: Slashing
L3 [Monk] - Precision (Monk bonus: Whirling Steel Strike)
L4 [Monk] - Choose a Path: Harmonious Balance
L6 [Monk] - Knight's Training
L7 [Monk] - Monk Bonus: Spring Attack
L9 [Monk] - Improved Single Weapon Fighting
L12 [Monk] - Improved Critical: Slashing
L15 [Monk] - Greater Single Weapon Fighting
L18 [Monk] - Whirlwind Attack
L20 [Fighter] - Offhand versatility (Fighter auto: second wind)
L21 Overwhelming Critical
L22 Doublestrike
L24 Improved Martial Arts
L25 Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
L27 Blinding Speed
L28 Harbinger of Chaos
L30 Epic Damage Reduction+Scion of the Astral Plane
L31 Elusive Target

L20 as Fighter is exactly what I'd have done and OV is the right Feat for that level.

The next three Feats, I might switch up the order a bit.
PSWF, then IMA, then DS (Ideally I'd go PSWF, DS, then IMA, but you can't take DS at L24)
PSWF gives +10% Melee Power, doubles your Vorpal range, and tosses in the .25 Stat bonus dmg increase as cherry on top. DS COULD be better than PSWF, if your weapon has a lot of effects that aren't core damage. Someone would have to do some math to compare. DS increases the entire DPS your weapon puts out by 5% across the board. 10% Melee Power increases only the things affected by it (Basic weapon damage and Imbues, mostly).. BUT, doubling the Vorpals and adding the additional ability modifier is likely to be worth more by Epic levels. This one's arguable and likely depends on the specific weapon(s) you use.

L27 Blinding Speed is probably the best option at that level. BS is either mostly utility (if you already have 30% Striding and 15% Attack Speed bonus), or it's very handy. But nothing else at that level looks particularly compelling at all. So it's probably the best of uncompelling options (It seems to me that Epic Feats strongly favor casters in terms of good options.)

L28 has a few decent options. As mentioned, you're only going to get half the value in Harbinger of Chaos (+2% Doublestrike, but not the Imbue dice).
Other options:
Embodiment of Law - if you have an Imbue (+3 PRR/MRR, +2 Imbue dice). Whether 2 Imbue dice will do more damage than +2% Doublestrike is again something that would require math for your specific circumstances.
Crush Weakness - (+15% DPS vs Helpless) if you regularly fight Helpless mobs (Blind, Tripped, Paralyzed, etc), whether you make them that way or someone else in your party does.
Elusive Target - Essentially a 5% Dodge vs anything that does Physical typed damage.
Fount of Life - Boost your self-heal from Path of Light, if you still depend on that at this point.
Wind Thru the Trees - 5% chance of knockdown on any attacker should make them Helpless, which both protects you and increases your DPS vs them.
Each of these Feats has a reasonable argument for why it'd be a good choice, including the one you've selected.

L30 only real options are Epic DR or Epic Reflexes. If your Reflex saves are high enough that you're only ever failing on a 1, then Epic Reflexes can make it so that you pretty much never take spell damage or trap damage that's based on a Reflex save. You can dance in traps.
L30 Legendary has three options:
Scion of Arboria, Scion of the Astral Plane, or Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Were you anything but Monk, one of the others might be a better option.. but the doubled bonus for being Centered puts the one you've chosen (Scion of the Astral Plane) firmly on top.
Siegfried 15 ABR 2023 a las 10:37 a. m. 
Thank you. I tried Epic Reflexes and DDO builder says my Reflexes save is at 30 (No fail on 1?). So I'm taking that over Epic DR.

However, if I don't take Embodiment of Law as well will that be a problem since I don't have any other +PRR/MRR feats at all?
Última edición por Siegfried; 15 ABR 2023 a las 10:38 a. m.
Doug 15 ABR 2023 a las 12:59 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Siegfried:
Thank you. I tried Epic Reflexes and DDO builder says my Reflexes save is at 30 (No fail on 1?). So I'm taking that over Epic DR.

However, if I don't take Embodiment of Law as well will that be a problem since I don't have any other +PRR/MRR feats at all?

No. Won't be an issue. In fact, as a Monk (Cloth Armor) you have a default MRR cap of 50. The idea is that lightly-armored characters are more likely to avoid spell damage with Reflexes instead, whereas highly-armored ones tank the damage (and thereby reduce it with MRR).

But overall, PRR, MRR, and AC all work on a 'diminishing returns' basis. They tossed d20 a looong time ago now, because with it, AC was either high enough for a tank (hit only on a 20 die roll) or it was impossible to get enough to be missed on anything but a 1. Which led to ludicrous builds that were cloth-armored Paladins and the like, because there was no value at all in AC unless you went 'all in'.

By changing AC to a diminishing returns basis (and adding PRR & MRR), they made it so ANY investment in these three things helps.. and more is always better.. but you have to invest more and more heavily to get more return on that investment.

By Epic levels, +3 to PRR/MRR is not likely to be significant for many toons. It might drop damage taken by a percentage point or two. If it were the FIRST investment in PRR/MRR for that toon, it would drop incoming damage by ALMOST 3% (the first +1 is 1%, but it reduces slightly for every additional +1.. so +3 is probably 2.9% or something if your previous PRR/MRR was zero).
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