New player looking for the best tank build.

[Rime]

I'm interested in trying to create the tankiest class possible akin to an unkillable moving wall just for fun, so far I figured it would be:

Fighter
Warforged
16 STR
10 DEX
20 CON
All skill points into 'Balance'
'Resilience' class feat
'Adamantine Body' feat

Feats are really difficult to pick was torn on shield mastery, toughness, etc.
Does this build work or is there something better?

[Doug]

I'm not much of a tank player, so my advice has at least some risk of being less than ideal.

The usual options for tank are Fighter, Paladin, or Bear-form Druid. Each has advantages and disadvantages. I honestly couldn't tell you which is ideal.

OTOH, I'd not go Warforged, myself. Heals are reduced in value and arcane casters don't tend to want to be healers, so you aren't likely to get the Repair love you need.

Generally speaking, as you've done, you want to max Con and take some Str. Some of the Paladin value comes from the saving throw bonuses they can get from Cha and their self-heal. If you go Pally, invest in some Cha or wear Cha gear, at least.

The biggest tank weakness to consider is likely to be Will saves. You'll probably easily save vs Fort and can tank Reflex, but Will fails are likely and highly problematic. Pally takes Cha for all saves; Fighter/Druid might invest in Wis. But in any case, look for Will save bonuses in Enhancements, etc.


Skills:
Balance
Intimidate

Feats:
Heavy Armor (ofc) Druids generally get Medium.. but non-metallic is the big issue for a Druid tank
Shield Mastery (all).. which will also increase your HP
Tower Shield proficiency (if not included in your class)
Heavy Armor Feats (all 4 if you can; highest value if not) to increase PRR/MRR
Improved Shield Bash (You can bash while actively blocking)
Shield Deflection
Resilience
Toughness is probably what you take if you still have Feat slots.. can be taken multiple times

Enhancements:
Sacred/Stalwart Defender (Pally/Fighter)
Personally, if Fighter I'd at least consider Dragon Lord variant for the auras
For either Fighter or Pally, Vanguard tree has some good shield-related stuff
Druids, ofc, are Nature's Protector primarily, with some investment in Nature's Warrior

If you have the Universal trees for Falconry and/or Feydark Illusionist, you could make Wis (Druid or Fighter) or Cha (Pally) your to-hit and dmg stat, thereby reducing your character closer to a two-stat build and getting better saves. I don't think any of the Feats I've suggested has a Str prereq. The big issue with a lack of Str is that it's one of the checks for things like Trip, though I think Balance is another. I also haven't checked if any of the Enhancements you might want would have a Str prereq.

[Grexus Blacksun]

Pure Paladins are currently the best tank class, though some Fighter(Dragon Lord)/Paladin Hybrids can give them a run for their money. Warforged/Bladeforged are generally not ideal since you either have to put points into reducing your penalties from Heal Spells or rely on your own Repair Spells).

Dragonborn, Human, Dwarf, and Half-Orc are ideal choices for Pally tanks.

[殺してあげる]

Not that much to add to Doug and Grexus, other than to think in my biased opinion Paladin Numba Wan! The Charisma is ADDED to the wisdom for that will save (and the other saves), so best of both worlds, and self-healing is a thing (Lay On Hands, Unyielding Sov)

One thing though is Pally would be feat starved compared to fighter-types... but a dwarf paladin would be get dwarf axe for free...which would let them run up two-handed fighting (so strikethrough multiple targets at once) while still having a shield - thus doing more dps and having an easier time holding threat in mobs. (that said, fighter gets the bonus feats so could do that and more..just lack those heals/saves/better afterlife)

[Doug]

Originally posted by 殺してあげる:

Not that much to add to Doug and Grexus, other than to think in my biased opinion Paladin Numba Wan! The Charisma is ADDED to the wisdom for that will save (and the other saves), so best of both worlds, and self-healing is a thing (Lay On Hands, Unyielding Sov)

One thing though is Pally would be feat starved compared to fighter-types... but a dwarf paladin would be get dwarf axe for free...which would let them run up two-handed fighting (so strikethrough multiple targets at once) while still having a shield - thus doing more dps and having an easier time holding threat in mobs. (that said, fighter gets the bonus feats so could do that and more..just lack those heals/saves/better afterlife)

Good points. I was specifically thinking of 'raid tank' more than general tank. Which is why I suggested the Shield Mastery line. Thing with a tank is that pulling and holding aggro is key, and that's the part with which I have little experience. However, I know that most aggro abilities still require that one do enough DPS to register (which is then multiplied in terms of the aggro produced). And that's where the Dwarf DAxe THF shines: it produces much more DPS than just shield bashing while turtling (i.e. actively blocking).

It really does depend on what kind of tanking you intend to do. And as mentioned, tank is the one role I've never really personally explored. Which makes it hard to know what to recommend in terms of how much focus you should put on DPS. All I know for sure is that pure survivability isn't the entire picture. A tank fails by dying, but also by failing to hold aggro. So tank design has to balance those two requirements.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by Doug:

Originally posted by 殺してあげる:

Not that much to add to Doug and Grexus, other than to think in my biased opinion Paladin Numba Wan! The Charisma is ADDED to the wisdom for that will save (and the other saves), so best of both worlds, and self-healing is a thing (Lay On Hands, Unyielding Sov)

One thing though is Pally would be feat starved compared to fighter-types... but a dwarf paladin would be get dwarf axe for free...which would let them run up two-handed fighting (so strikethrough multiple targets at once) while still having a shield - thus doing more dps and having an easier time holding threat in mobs. (that said, fighter gets the bonus feats so could do that and more..just lack those heals/saves/better afterlife)

Good points. I was specifically thinking of 'raid tank' more than general tank. Which is why I suggested the Shield Mastery line. Thing with a tank is that pulling and holding aggro is key, and that's the part with which I have little experience. However, I know that most aggro abilities still require that one do enough DPS to register (which is then multiplied in terms of the aggro produced). And that's where the Dwarf DAxe THF shines: it produces much more DPS than just shield bashing while turtling (i.e. actively blocking).

Intimidate would also come in very handy if you want to hold aggro, because as a dedicated tank no matter how big you hit, you will likely not get close enough to true DPS characters, or even flankers. They would steal the aggro if you would rely solely on damage dealt. So it is a good idea to also get intimidate and all those aggro increasing boosts.
If i recall well there is like one hm enhancement that allows you to get 300% to your aggro or something. It used to be i think for pallies.
(Ages ago i played a mostly all rounder paladin who could also tank well. Could take on scroll buffing:D healing and such stuff, but could also tank the Hound back in the days when Shavarath was new, oh i think i also tanked with him in Shavarath)

[Doug]

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

Originally posted by Doug:

Good points. I was specifically thinking of 'raid tank' more than general tank. Which is why I suggested the Shield Mastery line. Thing with a tank is that pulling and holding aggro is key, and that's the part with which I have little experience. However, I know that most aggro abilities still require that one do enough DPS to register (which is then multiplied in terms of the aggro produced). And that's where the Dwarf DAxe THF shines: it produces much more DPS than just shield bashing while turtling (i.e. actively blocking).

Intimidate would also come in very handy if you want to hold aggro, because as a dedicated tank no matter how big you hit, you will likely not get close enough to true DPS characters, or even flankers. They would steal the aggro if you would rely solely on damage dealt. So it is a good idea to also get intimidate and all those aggro increasing boosts.
If i recall well there is like one hm enhancement that allows you to get 300% to your aggro or something. It used to be i think for pallies.
(Ages ago i played a mostly all rounder paladin who could also tank well. Could take on scroll buffing:D healing and such stuff, but could also tank the Hound back in the days when Shavarath was new, oh i think i also tanked with him in Shavarath)

Yeah. That's why I put Intimidate on the Skills list for my suggested build. But intimidate only has a periodic effect and if you depend too much on it, you'll lose aggro, which is why DPS matters.

Also yes, no properly built tank will ever out-DPS a properly-built DPS.. which is why there are aggro-multiplying Enhancements and the like. I believe there are quite a few of them, but again, not having ever built a tank, I've not paid them much attention. (There's also gear with aggro-boosting effects.) But, again iirc, most if not all of them are based on multiplying the aggro created by your DPS.. so you still have to do enough DPS that, multiplied, it makes you the biggest apparent threat.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by Doug:

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

Intimidate would also come in very handy if you want to hold aggro, because as a dedicated tank no matter how big you hit, you will likely not get close enough to true DPS characters, or even flankers. They would steal the aggro if you would rely solely on damage dealt. So it is a good idea to also get intimidate and all those aggro increasing boosts.
If i recall well there is like one hm enhancement that allows you to get 300% to your aggro or something. It used to be i think for pallies.
(Ages ago i played a mostly all rounder paladin who could also tank well. Could take on scroll buffing:D healing and such stuff, but could also tank the Hound back in the days when Shavarath was new, oh i think i also tanked with him in Shavarath)

Yeah. That's why I put Intimidate on the Skills list for my suggested build. But intimidate only has a periodic effect and if you depend too much on it, you'll lose aggro, which is why DPS matters.

Also yes, no properly built tank will ever out-DPS a properly-built DPS.. which is why there are aggro-multiplying Enhancements and the like. I believe there are quite a few of them, but again, not having ever built a tank, I've not paid them much attention. (There's also gear with aggro-boosting effects.) But, again iirc, most if not all of them are based on multiplying the aggro created by your DPS.. so you still have to do enough DPS that, multiplied, it makes you the biggest apparent threat.

If i recall well intimade has a 6 seconds cool down, and the effect lasts for 5 seconds. However if someone during that time manages to make some seriously high damage, the aggro can shift over to that person.
But with intimidate you as to say break aggro chain, if there is some heavy dps dude, even if he is making the most damage, the moment you hit intimidate you will switch the focus on you.
Of course you might very well just as easily lose it, but still it offers up good kiting, tanking and other options:)
(Like rangers with intimidate using ranger speed boost to outrun everything and kiting them around etc.:P)

[Taebrythn]

don't forget the feat that just came out for intimidate as well as the unyielding attacks.

[Ghost]

Its a hard line intimidate tanking or hate tanking. If DPS is pulling too much aggro just let them die, as they forgot to reduce melee threat damage range. High charisma builds can also pull aggro just due to having a high charisma stat and damage output sorcs/bards and forgot to reduce spell threat damage. anyways i find a tank using intimidate to hold aggro on bosses better and if you lose aggro due to others doing high dps, just bring them back using knights challenge from unyielding sentinel as it will reset the bosses aggro, and just rotate using intimidate and knights challenge. trying to tank using high DPS as in hate tanking on raid bosses, you'll probably want a maxed out toon. GL and see you in game.

[P13]

Paladin. Or Monk, or Ranger, Melee Bard, Melee Druid, basically any melee that can self heal
Don't play an actual tank, they're entirely useless outside of some very niche uses, and you won't be tanky enough in those environments, even with a pure tank.

So just play something that has self sustain and you'll do fine. I like Aasimar Shintao Monk or any flavour of Paladin personally, both can easily vibe with massive health bars and tons of self sustain.

[Doug]

Originally posted by P13:

Paladin. Or Monk, or Ranger, Melee Bard, Melee Druid, basically any melee that can self heal
Don't play an actual tank, they're entirely useless outside of some very niche uses, and you won't be tanky enough in those environments, even with a pure tank.

So just play something that has self sustain and you'll do fine. I like Aasimar Shintao Monk or any flavour of Paladin personally, both can easily vibe with massive health bars and tons of self sustain.

So your answer to a request for 'best tank build' is to say don't build a tank? Really?

You have no idea why they want to build a tank or whether or not they need a real one.

[P13]

Originally posted by Doug:

Originally posted by P13:

Paladin. Or Monk, or Ranger, Melee Bard, Melee Druid, basically any melee that can self heal
Don't play an actual tank, they're entirely useless outside of some very niche uses, and you won't be tanky enough in those environments, even with a pure tank.

So just play something that has self sustain and you'll do fine. I like Aasimar Shintao Monk or any flavour of Paladin personally, both can easily vibe with massive health bars and tons of self sustain.

So your answer to a request for 'best tank build' is to say don't build a tank? Really?

You have no idea why they want to build a tank or whether or not they need a real one.

I'm saying you can build 90% of what a tank can do without playing a tank, and that last 10% isn't necessary in anything but Reaper 10, and will likely struggle to do much of anything. Anything under R5 with even 1 moderately well geared and built player is a breeze and everything but raid bosses and some particularly tanky dungeon bosses will die far too fast to even pull aggro.

If the desire is to pull aggro off of weaker players, Fighter or Paladin defensive stances give aggro bonuses, Monk has Concentration based Intimidate etc, so there is still no reason to build a pure tank over a DPS option, the end result would still put non-tank above tank, you'll still be incredibly tanky AND have very strong damage.

The fact OP is asking about tank builds on the Steam Forums shows they aren't experienced enough to be running content hard enough for the niche of a tank to matter, so instead of giving them bad advice, I'm offering better suggestions that solve the same problem without having a laundry list of other issues.

Go be argumentative elsewhere.

[Doug]

Originally posted by P13:

Originally posted by Doug:

So your answer to a request for 'best tank build' is to say don't build a tank? Really?

You have no idea why they want to build a tank or whether or not they need a real one.

I'm saying you can build 90% of what a tank can do without playing a tank, and that last 10% isn't necessary in anything but Reaper 10, and will likely struggle to do much of anything. Anything under R5 with even 1 moderately well geared and built player is a breeze and everything but raid bosses and some particularly tanky dungeon bosses will die far too fast to even pull aggro.

If the desire is to pull aggro off of weaker players, Fighter or Paladin defensive stances give aggro bonuses, Monk has Concentration based Intimidate etc, so there is still no reason to build a pure tank over a DPS option, the end result would still put non-tank above tank, you'll still be incredibly tanky AND have very strong damage.

The fact OP is asking about tank builds on the Steam Forums shows they aren't experienced enough to be running content hard enough for the niche of a tank to matter, so instead of giving them bad advice, I'm offering better suggestions that solve the same problem without having a laundry list of other issues.

Go be argumentative elsewhere.

No. Don't think I will.

They requested a 'best' tank build. You did not give them that, by any definition.
At a bare minimum, rather than not answer their question, you should have pointed out the difference between a raid tank, off tank, and self-healing tanky build and asked which they needed, rather than simply pooh-poohing their request itself.

Not cool.

Consider, if you will, a scenario. There are guilds that span multiple games. They have a Discord with channels for each game they have members playing. When such a guild starts playing a new game, the odds are that multiple players do so simultaneously. And they tend to play as 'static' groups (the members playing on any given day may shift, but mostly they play 'in house'). Such a group will learn the quests together. They'll attempt the raids as a guild. They'll know of the necessity of raid tanks from having played other games, and one or more players will seek to build one.

How do you know that's not the OP's situation? In which case, they DO need a tank, and your advice was absolute BS based solely on YOUR gaming experience and biases.

[P13]

Originally posted by Doug:

No. Don't think I will.

They requested a 'best' tank build. You did not give them that, by any definition.
At a bare minimum, rather than not answer their question, you should have pointed out the difference between a raid tank, off tank, and self-healing tanky build and asked which they needed, rather than simply pooh-poohing their request itself.

Not cool.

Consider, if you will, a scenario. There are guilds that span multiple games. They have a Discord with channels for each game they have members playing. When such a guild starts playing a new game, the odds are that multiple players do so simultaneously. And they tend to play as 'static' groups (the members playing on any given day may shift, but mostly they play 'in house'). Such a group will learn the quests together. They'll attempt the raids as a guild. They'll know of the necessity of raid tanks from having played other games, and one or more players will seek to build one.

How do you know that's not the OP's situation? In which case, they DO need a tank, and your advice was absolute BS based solely on YOUR gaming experience and biases.

That's a role that a Paladin or Fighter with a stance toggled on can fill trivially easily.

Your complete ignorance to context and nuance is making you look like a clown, so pipe down and come back when you've got more experience in the game.

A pure tank is completely unnecessary. As someone with tank experience, which you self admittedly lack, you do not ever need 500+ PRR/MRR and 5k HP, which is what a proper tank build is.
You can fill that same niche with the builds I have mentioned, achieving a tank character when needed, and a DPS the rest of the time. Far more useful in far more content.

Now, for the sake of OP's steam notifications getting spammed, I'm going to go do literally anything else with my time, because it's clear your fragile ego can't tolerate someone telling you you're wrong. Have fun, buddy :)

[Doug]

Originally posted by P13:

Originally posted by Doug:

No. Don't think I will.

They requested a 'best' tank build. You did not give them that, by any definition.
At a bare minimum, rather than not answer their question, you should have pointed out the difference between a raid tank, off tank, and self-healing tanky build and asked which they needed, rather than simply pooh-poohing their request itself.

Not cool.

Consider, if you will, a scenario. There are guilds that span multiple games. They have a Discord with channels for each game they have members playing. When such a guild starts playing a new game, the odds are that multiple players do so simultaneously. And they tend to play as 'static' groups (the members playing on any given day may shift, but mostly they play 'in house'). Such a group will learn the quests together. They'll attempt the raids as a guild. They'll know of the necessity of raid tanks from having played other games, and one or more players will seek to build one.

How do you know that's not the OP's situation? In which case, they DO need a tank, and your advice was absolute BS based solely on YOUR gaming experience and biases.

That's a role that a Paladin or Fighter with a stance toggled on can fill trivially easily.

Your complete ignorance to context and nuance is making you look like a clown, so pipe down and come back when you've got more experience in the game.

A pure tank is completely unnecessary. As someone with tank experience, which you self admittedly lack, you do not ever need 500+ PRR/MRR and 5k HP, which is what a proper tank build is.
You can fill that same niche with the builds I have mentioned, achieving a tank character when needed, and a DPS the rest of the time. Far more useful in far more content.

Now, for the sake of OP's steam notifications getting spammed, I'm going to go do literally anything else with my time, because it's clear your fragile ego can't tolerate someone telling you you're wrong. Have fun, buddy :)

Nothing wrong with my ego. Mostly because I'm not wrong. You failed to answer the OP's question, acting dismissive first of their intelligence, then of mine. Yet YOU are the one who has responded with irrelevant BS over and over.

Just because YOU don't believe they need a tank, doesn't mean they don't. And the hubris in telling them (on the basis of no information whatsoever) they don't need a tank? Words fail me....