Everything I can think of that's wrong with DDO.. from a FAN

[Doug]

DDO is not the perfect MMO. Maybe such a beast resides out there in the far reaches of cyberspace.. if so, I haven't seen it yet. I have tired of the ongoing ridiculous stuff I have seen posted about DDO, and I would like to try to set the record as straight as I can. I'll try to keep to one negative per post, and I WILL post my thoughts on each, fwiw.

This thread's been around for a VERY long time. Some of the things it mentions no longer exist in the game. Still, it's a pretty good primer for the things players have complained about over the years.

It's been just about a decade now since I made this posting. Yet some of the things it covers are STILL relevant.

[殺してあげる]

With Spell-like-ability in the enhancement trees, the sp issue for casters was heavily mitigated. Finishing with a lot of sp happens to the point that 'never using a rest shrine' is common in a party.

That said, does not apply as much in epics where 'ugly bags of mostly hp' with 'saving throws even a god couldn't penetrate' make casters more feeble than the pnp level 1 wiz (i cast "magic missle' then sit out the rest of the fight :P ). Of course certain forum people will immediately present how that's false and their 15th life all raid-gear +7 tomed character with yugo pots and full airship buffs can easily make their kill DC... but for the mortals? Meh.

[Exothermically Eclectic]

Cadderley eredeti hozzászólása:

I cannot think of any other MMO, where, once you are out of SP, there is no way of recovering it, unless you use a rest shrine, which resets only once every 15 minutes, or equivical system.

It's only once every 15 minutes if you're running Elite. If you don't know how to conserve SP, don't run the hardest difficulty.

Cadderley eredeti hozzászólása:

Even in the older AD&D games, such as Neverwinter Nights 2,

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Cadderley eredeti hozzászólása:

if I remember right, you could rest anywhere where you wanted to, as long as no enemies were present.

Yes, you could. And it was known for being utterly broken and unchallenging in favour of spellcasters, removing basically all worries about resource conservation and smart spell selection/usage and turning the game into a snoozefest you could basically sleepwalk through. D&D spells are not balanced around being able to be used multiple times in every encounter every day (or particularly well at all, really, but that's another issue not really related to DDO). Single spells like Entangle or Grease or Glitterdust can render encounters trivial, and it showed.

Cadderley eredeti hozzászólása:

There are certain items which recover a set amount of SP at a certain rate, so many times per day, but the amount of SP that the items recover, are, usually, almost insignificant. There are also spell scrolls, and wands, which can be found, and looted, but then, if your going to use them, then whats the point in being able to level to 30, if your going to stick to items which have their own casting level?
Not to mention, what are you going to do, once you run out of funds, which are required to buy the spells, and items, which you want to use?

Cash (at least, of the platinum variety) is not hard to get at all in DDO. Now, I'm very conservative about consumable use, often ending up costing myself more in the long run through not smoothing things out with a quick potion or whatever, but even I know that regular questing more than covers your costs if you're being at all sensible with your spell use. At lower levels especially there are also eternal wands, recharging staffs and so on that work very well.

Cadderley eredeti hozzászólása:

Well, I look at it this way, most of us, especially those of us who played the 2nd edition P&P rule set, know how useless casters can be without their spells. The only way to play a wizard, is to spam spells. It is your only offence. If you do not use complementary enhancements like Pale Master, or Eldritch Knight, you basically have no offensive capability other than spells, and even then, you have a very limited form of offense using weapons. The only way that I can see round it, is to use spell like abilities, which, by and large, suck, at least until Epic Destinies are unlocked, or to multiclass with a fighter type character, which then has a direct impact on your ability to be able to level in a single class, which makes playing casters pointless, if you cannot cast the highest level spells, you might as well go melee from the start, and call it quits, rellying solely on HP potions, which also begs another question, which is why are Health items in so much abundance, when SP items are, by comparison, rather scarce?

To put it bluntly, you're playing a caster badly. SP management is a basic caster skill. If all you do is throw inefficient damage spells at everything in your path, yes, you will run out of sp quickly and painfully. That's no different from being a ranged character without returning arrows or summoned bolts and firing constantly at everything, whether it's an enemy you can hit or not, and then running out of ammunition in every quest.
I've seen sorcerers running away from single weak kobolds in explorer areas before the quests even start, furiously throwing Burning Hands at that single mob like it was going out of style. Needless to say, they burned through their resources super fast and spent large parts of the quest as dead weight.
Meanwhile, I've gone through long quests with simple spell conservation strategies- stuff like using a hire (or even a summon!) and some buffs, using SLAs with casting gear (or just decent metamagic; metamagic on SLAs is free!) to pick off monsters, proper CC for groups of enemies- basic stuff like that, and barely ever had to shrine even in very long quests.

Hell, if you have the right SLAs or low level spells and casting boosters, you can get through a lot of quests just on the 12 point regen you get on any caster. Might be slow, but it works.

[Diogenes]

awfrailey eredeti hozzászólása:

I wasn't disagreeing with you, just trying to figure out if there were any viable options or work arounds for SP loss ...

I know, I was just tired when I replied, I did not mean to come over too strongly :).

My problem is that, due to my background, I am used to debates, and arguments, and 9 out of 10 times, they do tend to become aggressive, especially when your working within a group, and also especially when you are arguing the case for a business plan which you are trying to impliment, at some point, with a product in mind, which you hope to develop into a core product, rather than just a concept product.

That is what I was doing twelve months ago, whilst I was taking a break from DDO.

[Diogenes]

Highly Heretical eredeti hozzászólása:

To put it bluntly, you're playing a caster badly. SP management is a basic caster skill. If all you do is throw inefficient damage spells at everything in your path, yes, you will run out of sp quickly and painfully. That's no different from being a ranged character without returning arrows or summoned bolts and firing constantly at everything, whether it's an enemy you can hit or not, and then running out of ammunition in every quest.
I've seen sorcerers running away from single weak kobolds in explorer areas before the quests even start, furiously throwing Burning Hands at that single mob like it was going out of style. Needless to say, they burned through their resources super fast and spent large parts of the quest as dead weight.

You do not even know what my playstyle is, yet alone what toon I main, what my build is, what my gear is, or what my SP pool is.

At the minute, I have little over 2800 SP as a pure Warforged Wizard, at Epic Level 26, with 0% arcane spell failure for using heavy armour docents. At this point in the levelling process, given the seeming lack of high level quests which can be done on casual, or normal, difficulty, I have almost no choice, but to do quests on higher settings, if I ever hope to see level 30.

Further more, I compliment my main Wizard build by using the Eldritch Knight tree to enhance my melee capabilities ready for if, or when, I inevitably run out of SP, along with the Draconic Incarnation Epic Destiny, whilst combining that, with Energy of the Scholar, under the Archmage tree, and then by using some elements of the Pale Master tree, in particular the Shroud of the Lich, using spell like abilities to conserve SP, and health, which is then regained via casting Death Auras, and Negative Energy Burst if necessary. Up to now, the only pure offensive Wizard spells which I cast, are Negative Energy Burst, both Death Auras, and Wail of The Banshee. I do not use the available meta magics, since I do not believe that using the meta magics make the extra effects, and additional SP cost worth while, or efficient, any more.

One problem that I find with this, is that direct damage, negative energy spells, seem to be neglected in terms of pure DPS, over other forms of magic damage, such as force, and in particular, Acid. I could re-spec to deal pure Acid Damage, via the Draconic Incarnation, and by, possibly, using the Archmage tree, but then, that would likely destroy my Pale Master tree, in terms of using self healig, and using spell like abilities which use health, instead of my available SP pool. Keeping that in mind, I am not certain that the benefits of doing that, would out weight the cons.

If there was an Epic Destiny which catered for Necormancy, which complimented the Pale Master tree, then I would gladly use it, but from what I can see of the Epic Destinies up to now, even they do not really feel as "Epic" as I think that they could, or should be.

However, at ths level, SP conservation is not so much of an issue at the minute. It is more, at low level, where it hurts, especially, I think, new players, with newly generated characters who think that they can run around nuking everything in sight, when they cannot.

[Doug]

Rest shrines on Elite do not reset... at all. Nor on Hard.

"Rest shrines can be used only once in quests on Hard and Elite settings, once every 15 minutes on Normal and in wilderness areas, and once every 5 minutes on Solo and Casual." (ddowiki.com)

[Doug]

I have run several casters through DDO, and seldom use SP potions except for in certain raids. That being said, I have yet to run a Pale Master and I only solo when I can't find groups. Thus, I have no real idea how hard it is for a caster to solo Epic Elite content without SP pots. Then again, my melee toons regularly die trying to solo EE content at level, so there's that.

Aside from SP conservation and SP pots and a few named items, an underutilized option on low levels is to pick a Cleric hireling with Divine Vitality, whereby they can buff you with some SP several times. Pretty sure it's neither available, nor would provide enough SP to matter at high levels. Also, if you have Shroud, you can craft a Concordant Opposition item that will not only give you up to 150 (iirc) stacking SP, but will buff you with SP &/or HP a fraction of the time when you take damage. I believe you can have multiple ConOpp items, but there's unwritten rules about what stacks. Pretty sure you can have a weapon and an accessory, beyond that, idr. (http://ddowiki.com/page/Concordant_Opposition)

[殺してあげる]

*amused* My monk will tell you ALLL about her fighter lives where +sp were the results of quaffing Potions of Wonder. Back when those things were potentially lethal, we had a 'game' of 'find a pot quaff a pot'. And all the fun times of blowing ourselves up or summoning shavarath blades.

Anyways, they can be SP. Not sure the ones in lordsmarch defensive pots of wonder

[SmrtHodanje]

i have played my main as all classes more than once. been all types of caster except for a cc bard. played bard lives as a wolf to burn it up fast. I played ee stormhorns as pure drow wiz. no real issues. have to have decent gear and buy major sp pots on ah if you are short sp. I occasionally needed a pot or 2. As to the worry about 26 to 30.......those are easy levels, do orchard slays, thunderholm slays, and estar challenges....done.

[Doug]

There's also the "Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II".. acts similar to Concordant Opposition Greensteel, I think. Except only produces SP on hit, not SP and/or HP. Never had one, though.

[Doug]

There's a new accusation of Pay2Win currently being leveled at DDO.

Basically, it states that the gear in paid quests is sufficiently better than the gear in F2P quests that it amounts to a P2W situation. The major culprit at which this accusation is leveled tends to be the Ravenloft expansion.

Granted, I love the weapon you can farm from Ravenloft every life just by completing the 'Into the Mists' quest. The combination of effects (silver, good, fire, undead bane) is great vs undead, breaks devil DR, and is effective overall. And the named gear from the raids and such is arguably even better.

While I'll be the first to admit that I thought the Ravenloft expansion was overpriced, some clearly felt differently and bought it at full price right out of the gate. I'll also admit to some jealousy at the time. And frankly, that's how this accusation appears to me: sour grapes on the part of those who can't afford (or won't buy) the expansion. When they 'explain' how Epic DDO is too hard without the gear behind this 'paywall', it begs the question of how they think anyone played Epic DDO in the half decade between its release and the release of Ravenloft.

And there's still no explanation given as to how this generates 'winning' nor even what 'winning' would be in DDO, which undermines the accusation rather thoroughly.

[Equilibrium]

It's one person's accusation of P2W. That person doesn't understand what P2W actually means. Probably just a kid.

[Doug]

Equilibrium eredeti hozzászólása:

It's one person's accusation of P2W. That person doesn't understand what P2W actually means. Probably just a kid.

When I started this thread, I included all the gripes about DDO I could find/remember. Some of them I agreed with, some I found nonsensical, some I withheld judgment, and some I found a kernel of truth in. To belong in this thread, it doesn't have to be valid.

[Aepervius]

I find the latest expansion very exploitative IMO. Worst of F2P. You get Sharn for a minim of $40, and if you want to get the inquisitive tree you have to PONEY UP an additional $40 (for the total of $80 for the collector edition).

Cosmetic element in collector edition yes. PLAY element like the inquisitive tree to a collector edition ? Nope. That is exploitative AF.

I was a long fan and even spent a lot of money... But I am unsubscribing and I will never come back. And if anybody ask me , i will tell them to GTFO.

[Gaettusk]

Isnt Inquis top dps atm? Pay 80 bucks for the best spec LOL

[Doug]

Aepervius eredeti hozzászólása:

I find the latest expansion very exploitative IMO. Worst of F2P. You get Sharn for a minim of $40, and if you want to get the inquisitive tree you have to PONEY UP an additional $40 (for the total of $80 for the collector edition).

Cosmetic element in collector edition yes. PLAY element like the inquisitive tree to a collector edition ? Nope. That is exploitative AF.

I was a long fan and even spent a lot of money... But I am unsubscribing and I will never come back. And if anybody ask me , i will tell them to GTFO.

Umm.. you can earn the Inquisitive Tree with Sharn favor simply by buying the bottom-end expansion. 225 Sharn City Council favor unlocks it for that server. Does require you run both Chain 1 & Chain 2 and most if not all the Cogs walkups. (https://ddowiki.com/page/Favor#Sharn_City_Council)

And you can also buy the Inquisitive Tree in the DDO Store in-game for 495 DDO points (about $5. in value) if you really want.

The higher-tier versions of the expansion are for those willing to pay for cosmetics, gold seal hires, the Tiefling race, augment bag, etc.

I mean... leave the game if you want, but it would be better to do so based on a real complaint.

But thanks for resurrecting my zombie thread. ;)