Utility spells are one key component that makes DDO dungeons and dragons..and they are for all practical purposes, gone.

[fuku893]

The title says it. I can elaborate here for hours but will instead only do so for minutes. There has been a steady gutting of the efficacy of utility spells from knock(supposed to open a locked door autosuccess, instead less effective than 1 rank of OL and a decent item(thats a spell slow and mana remember not to mention the fiat) to true seeing and detect secret doors being a joke(same issue as OL only search). Their are multiple options in the game because they are OPTIONS... or are at least meant to be. Stripping the utility of utility spells is cm fiat. Dm fiat used so liberally indicates a willingness to cheat. Invalidation of player protections(and not mobs but even were it applied to both would not be equivalent) indicates even absent any other proof a willingness to cheat on the dice(that they have funneled you to being almost solely reliant upon via invalidating player protection spells).

TLDR: DM fiat is bad for any game. Destruction of player agency is also. Reducing the utility of utility further channels casters into nuker. There are copious games where this is so. We do not need DDO to become yet another of these.

[Doug]

Or, another perspective: In Vancian magic, utility spells can be of virtually limitless power, because they cost one of a very limited number of spell slots. OTOH, by virtue of DDO changes to the basic ruleset, instead of memorizing a limited number of spells in slots, casters are granted a rather deep pool of spell points. As it is, casters are pretty OP when it comes to damage output. If they also had limitless utility spells, they'd literally never need anyone else. Which would, imo, go much further toward making it 'not D&D' since DDO, like D&D, is designed for cooperative play.

That being said, you've also overstated your case rather radically in order to make your point. First, because I'm unaware of any changes to any of these utility spells' functions in literally years, so your concern that DDO might become a game that channels casters into nukers misses on the basic point that it's not currently changing in that area.. at all. Second, re. specifics: Detect Secret Doors and True Seeing are almost flawless at finding secret doors.. at lower levels. However, DSD & TS are limited to the DC of secret door that they can find, whereas a Rogue with the Search ability is not. Similarly, Open Locks is nowhere nearly as effective as you suggest without either much more investment than 1 rank or without multiple attempts. At low levels, Knock vastly outperforms OL. However, it doesn't scale, while OL does. This makes it so that the low-level caster (who is not yet a demigod when it comes to nuking) has great utility. Whereas the high-level caster (who can solo most content easily as long as their spell points hold out) loses some utility. Seems fair to me.

As for DM fiat.. umm, what DM? And what cheat? This is so far into opinion, it's hard to even counter. Similarly, the argument that utility spells have any major impact on whether or not DDO is D&D.. there's no way to support such a contention. DDO is D&D because it's licenced from the owners of the intellectual property that is D&D. There's nothing else (aside from opinion) that dictates that it is or is not D&D.

Conclusion: Your desire that utility spells be more useful is valid. But your support for that desire is weak to nonexistent, being based on overstatements of reality and a hefty dose of sheer opinion treated as fact.

All that being said, I do rather wish they'd do a utility spell pass, if only to improve utility spells' effectiveness by one or more of the same things that affect spell DCs: casting stat and spell school bonuses (where applicable). But I acknowledge that that's just my preference. And I'm not sure how it would affect game balance.

[fuku893]

You are incorrect... in characteristic fashion. Your spell slots are still limited. Your deeper pool is to reflect the massive mob inflation in both number and health relative to actual dnd. If you don't know what fiat is google can be found in the same place(approximately) as you responded to this, the internet. This last point shows who has a tendency toward sophistry and who does not. Utility spells do not do what they are supposed to. They do not do what they used to in ddo itself. The devs offered a lame excuse about blanket immunities being bad when they made the change and this is absurd for two reasons. The immunities from utility spells are (not) blanket but target immunities first off. Second, were they blanket there are copious mobs with total immunties to all manner of things...as they should be..but as we should as well when you take the time and resources to do so.

This issue coupled with AC invalidation and the substitution of prr/mrr taken together(and there are many more points in said vein) strongly undermine the rules set to make it fall in line with any number of games where player agency is a fraction of what ddo was and make it ever closer to a wow clone..with less customers, which is a losing proposition, ergo bad for the game both fiscally and by measures of integrity.

[Doug]

Originally posted by fuku893:

You are incorrect... in characteristic fashion. Your spell slots are still limited. Your deeper pool is to reflect the massive mob inflation in both number and health relative to actual dnd. If you don't know what fiat is google can be found in the same place(approximately) as you responded to this, the internet. This last point shows who has a tendency toward sophistry and who does not. Utility spells do not do what they are supposed to. They do not do what they used to in ddo itself. The devs offered a lame excuse about blanket immunities being bad when they made the change and this is absurd for two reasons. The immunities from utility spells are (not) blanket but target immunities first off. Second, were they blanket there are copious mobs with total immunties to all manner of things...as they should be..but as we should as well when you take the time and resources to do so.

Bah. DMs have always done whatever they want. Homebrew is probably almost as common as is canon. I'm quite well aware of what fiat (and DM fiat) mean. But you've made no points whatsoever regarding immunities of any kind. So I have no idea what you're talking about, nor what they have to do with utility spells. You've given no examples. You've simply mentioned immunities.. and then given as your only examples utility detection spells. And yes, your spell slots are still limited.. sort of. But you are NOT limited to casting each spell in each slot only one time between rests. Which changes everything.

So perhaps rather than be condescending, you should try to actually make a point and use evidence that supports the point you're trying to make. Perhaps then my response would be more on-topic.

[Doug]

Originally posted by fuku893:

This issue coupled with AC invalidation and the substitution of prr/mrr taken together(and there are many more points in said vein) strongly undermine the rules set to make it fall in line with any number of games where player agency is a fraction of what ddo was and make it ever closer to a wow clone..with less customers, which is a losing proposition, ergo bad for the game both fiscally and by measures of integrity.

Your opinion on what's 'bad for the game' is just that: your opinion. The fact that it's still ticking along after 15 years suggests that your opinion is far from universal.

As for 'AC invalidation' .. umm, no. You have that entirely backward. AC used to mean nothing. Either you could get enough to be only hit on a roll of 20.. or there was no point investing in it at all. Which was why we had scads of monk splashes for evasion and nobody ever bothering to wear heavy armor unless they were a tank spec. The combination of a diminishing-returns AC (where EVERY point of AC matters) and PRR/MRR adds considerable utility to armor options and damage mitigation flexibility. And now players have considerably more agency when it comes to what armor to wear and how to mitigate incoming damage.

But in any event, if this is what you're complaining about, you're literally years behind the curve. These changes were made a long time ago.

[fuku893]

Previously the lower the "power creep" the more swiftly AC mattered. Not only is it numerically less true now they have literally fundamentally altered the system such that...the mobs strike you before you can even reach them..the mobs autohit...automiss on a 1 by mobs doesnt even appear to function..player attack slows down for no legitimate mechanical reason..player movement is slower than it was a coupel years ago(in spite of all effects being the same and that mob movement hasnt)...None of this is opinion. One of us is condescending, it isn't me. The fact that changes are old doesnt make them irrelevant. You seem to have missed the thrust that years of changes that make it less dnd are a problem. The fact that the game continues to limp along becuase a small number of people are pandered to and bankroll it while being the cause of the exodus of the rest doesnt support your point but mine. You really aren't worth responding to.

[Realitysleeps]

Originally posted by fuku893:

the mobs strike you before you can even reach them..

not all mobs, and what do you expect? the mobs to wait for you to throw the first hit?
ranged can get in the first hits easily (as long as they have there draw distance at max), stealthy toons can walk all over the enemy - even pulling levers without being seen

Originally posted by fuku893:

the mobs autohit...

Only if your defences are poor - sorry, but i see lots of misses

Originally posted by fuku893:

automiss on a 1 by mobs doesnt even appear to function..

no, mobs do miss, just read the combat messages and you'll see, assuming that your toon isnt a glass cannon

Originally posted by fuku893:

player attack slows down for no legitimate mechanical reason..

thats a harder take, sometimes that genuinely is lag, sometimes its due to specific animations that are being triggered

Originally posted by fuku893:

player movement is slower than it was a coupel years ago(in spite of all effects being the same and that mob movement hasnt)...

again subjective, a number of the bugs have been fixed - a one point the pendant of time worked on top of haste and enhanced speed etc, but equally outside of quest we have horses, and in quest we have more than enough vengeance and doom reapers to need to worry about maximum speeds.

Originally posted by fuku893:

None of this is opinion.

Sorry, but yes it is, and its subjective opinion at that

Originally posted by fuku893:

One of us is condescending, it isn't me.

Again sorry, but you are. Your stating facts that are at best subjective views and then attacking responses. Ironically doing it in a place that few players tend to respond (playing DDO via Steam has always been a bad idea - tried it both ways and Steam just adds issues all of its own and no, thats not subjective, it was confirmed both by Steam and Turbine (as was)).

Originally posted by fuku893:

The fact that changes are old doesnt make them irrelevant.

Ah, something we do agree on, true, undeniable. Also,in this instance it is a fact that is provable.

Originally posted by fuku893:

You seem to have missed the thrust that years of changes that make it less dnd are a problem.

And again here we get subjective, what is DnD? Have been playing on and off since the 80's, The very nature of the game has been to evolve, and the MMO is not really that different. If you want a more 'real' DnD experience, go and play something like Solasta - but even that has variances from the core books. The developers do whats needed to make the game playable and fun, and truth be told that works, people have been playing it for quite some time.

Originally posted by fuku893:

The fact that the game continues to limp along because a small number of people are pandered to

a statement that gets rolled out every few months but with no evidence to back it up. How are these 'small number of people' being appeased? Most of the changes actually depower there favourite builds, weaken setups they have taken years to perfect, is it the new quests? well, no because thats for everyone, so what is it exactly and on what evidence do you base that statement

Originally posted by fuku893:

and bankroll it

again, a comment that is rolled out often, and yet the published figures by EQ7 dispute that and show that there is a healthy spread of payments being made, and whilst DDO Players may pay more per person than other games, the published numbers dont match the idea that its being bankrolled by a small number (unless you simply define the player base as a small number in the first instance)

Originally posted by fuku893:

while being the cause of the exodus of the rest

right, again, subjective with no evidence. Claims about calamitous changes and mass exodus are made all the time, but neither the numbers or the reality seem to back this up. By all means present evidence to the contrary, but merely saying it does not make it so. if you want to say it, that's fine, but in which case it become - 'in my opinion'

[Doug]

Originally posted by fuku893:

Previously the lower the "power creep" the more swiftly AC mattered. Not only is it numerically less true now they have literally fundamentally altered the system such that...the mobs strike you before you can even reach them..the mobs autohit...automiss on a 1 by mobs doesnt even appear to function..player attack slows down for no legitimate mechanical reason..player movement is slower than it was a coupel years ago(in spite of all effects being the same and that mob movement hasnt)...None of this is opinion. One of us is condescending, it isn't me. The fact that changes are old doesnt make them irrelevant. You seem to have missed the thrust that years of changes that make it less dnd are a problem. The fact that the game continues to limp along becuase a small number of people are pandered to and bankroll it while being the cause of the exodus of the rest doesnt support your point but mine. You really aren't worth responding to.

And yet you blather on. As I pointed out, there is no automiss on a 1. That's d20 rules. And they went away (to the betterment of gameplay as I outlined) as part of the armor revision that made armor relevant to more than just tanks again. There's also no autohit. Your armor provides a chance they miss (on a 'diminishing returns' basis that makes the first points of armor more valuable than later ones). So does your dodge. If both fail, PRR mitigates the damage done. You should probably check out your combat log sometime. If you don't ever see mobs miss, either you're playing a badly-built toon (or quests way above your level), or you simply don't know where and how to look. 'None of this is opinion.' Since much of it is wrong, I'd have to say: bring on your proof.

As for what does and doesn't slow down player movement and/or attacks and whether that matters, you'd have to read a lot of dev blogs to understand what they've done and how it has improved the game's balance. Fact is, though, all effects are NOT the same. Not even close. They've been tweaked for balance and better playability over and over. One of the more recent revamps completely changed how ranged attacks work and how they're affected by haste boosts and such. So while you still see someone using a bow, the 'effect' has been completely changed. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And as for mobs striking you before you can even reach them: such is lag. Always been a problem; probably always will be. Also, depending on what weapons you're wielding, their hitbox may simply be larger than yours. Don't expect to hit the spear fighter with your handwraps before he pokes you. Not gonna happen unless you sneak up on him.

And after over 15 years, the shock isn't that some people have left; it's that anyone still plays at all. So no. While some may well have claimed some of these things were the cause of their exodus, fact is that most were inevitably going to move on to the next big thing anyway. The fact that people have left proves your 'point' not at all.

The fact that people like you argue that it's not D&D because it doesn't use d20 (even though it provably didn't work for the benefit of gameplay), simply demonstrates that 'purists' are blind to reality. You have your own image of what DDO should be.. and it isn't. So don't play it. But to claim that because it doesn't meet YOUR vision that it isn't D&D.. yep.. condescending at best. Narcissistic, more accurately. Certainly narrow-minded. And lacking all the flexibility that makes D&D great.

So yes, NOW I'm definitely condescending.

[Doug]

Originally posted by fuku893:

You really aren't worth responding to.

Well, then you should be proud of yourself. You have failed to respond to a single point I've raised nor to a single answer I've given to the points you've raised. I have clearly treated you with more respect than you deserve, imagining that you were actually interested in discussion, rather than simply venting your spleen.

If you don't like DDO, don't play it. But stop trying to convince others with nonsense and then refusing to respond when the nonsense is called out.

[fuku893]

Doug bud. You dont make points. Ive spoken to you before and nothing has changed. You are a supremacist not a reasoner. You come in condescending and only get ruder when people dont acquiesce. The game does do autofails on a 1(as per dnd) on attacks and saves(there are mechanics to negate auto fail saves only it doesnt really roll a 20, You are ALWAYS condescending. This is further compounded because no matter how many times and ways you are demonstrated to be incorrect and no matter how evident the point is you will never acknowledge error...because you are a supremacist. Simple enough for ya? I told you a couple reasons it isn't dnd and I have literally thousands more and none of the were "because it doesn't use d20". People leave, yes, but the reason people come back to ddo a year down the line where they dont for WOW is the stuff they are gutting from DDO. Once again you fail to understand what is right in front of you and argue the opposite...because you have to..to maintain your incorrect assumptions of the world and yourself. And I know none of these very correct corrections of your stated perceptions will make the slightest difference in your behavior or biases. So,it is for this reason Doug that you are not worth talking to. Get it?

[Doug]

Originally posted by fuku893:

Doug bud. You dont make points. Ive spoken to you before and nothing has changed. You are a supremacist not a reasoner. You come in condescending and only get ruder when people dont acquiesce. The game does do autofails on a 1(as per dnd) on attacks and saves(there are mechanics to negate auto fail saves only it doesnt really roll a 20, You are ALWAYS condescending. This is further compounded because no matter how many times and ways you are demonstrated to be incorrect and no matter how evident the point is you will never acknowledge error...because you are a supremacist. Simple enough for ya? I told you a couple reasons it isn't dnd and I have literally thousands more and none of the were "because it doesn't use d20". People leave, yes, but the reason people come back to ddo a year down the line where they dont for WOW is the stuff they are gutting from DDO. Once again you fail to understand what is right in front of you and argue the opposite...because you have to..to maintain your incorrect assumptions of the world and yourself. And I know none of these very correct corrections of your stated perceptions will make the slightest difference in your behavior or biases. So,it is for this reason Doug that you are not worth talking to. Get it?

Really? You argue from irrelevancies and personal bias as though they were fact. And you misrepresent what I say in order to make me wrong. I never suggested there's no autofail on saves, for example. Just because I don't agree with your personal, narcissistic pronouncement that DDO isn't D&D (that's nonsense at its core, since Wizards of the Coast says it is, so who are YOU to say otherwise), doesn't make me condescending. Just because I point out that your arguments in favor of your nonsense position are not actually arguments that support that position, just justifications for your bias, that also doesn't make me condescending. But you, believing that your bias trumps all else? That your opinion is more important than that of the developers of DDO and the intellectual property holders of D&D?

Never mind. You're right about one thing. There's no point engaging.

One does wonder why you bother to resurface here from time to time just to post insupportable nonsense, though.

[fuku893]

Originally posted by Realitysleeps:

Originally posted by fuku893:

the mobs strike you before you can even reach them..

not all mobs, and what do you expect? the mobs to wait for you to throw the first hit?
ranged can get in the first hits easily (as long as they have there draw distance at max), stealthy toons can walk all over the enemy - even pulling levers without being seen



All mobs do. Stand in place swinging. Watch mobs run up and hit you stopping just short of your ability to hit them. Their reach has been extended and/or yours shrunk. Not only is this obvious Dm fiat this ripples into other absurdities like attack sequence disruptions from the movement they have now necessitated by screwing with reach. Your failure to observe is not my ignorance.

Originally posted by fuku893:

the mobs autohit...

Only if your defences are poor - sorry, but i see lots of misses

Incorrect on two counts. First, previously good defenses meant substantially more misses. They didnt just change that it rolls percentile. They changed how much ac would be required while leaving many of the bonuses(utility spells for instance) on the same scale shield of faith 5 ac on a 20 versus 5 ac on a 100.
Second, I see lots of misses too. For instance every mob or two you will consistently miss what would have been the last swing against said mob even if you can only miss on a 1. Similarly misses against yourself are from trivial mobs. Interestingly you get missed less by trivial mobs when there are enough of them for them to be nontrivial. I am confident you will scoff at this second point. I am also confident you wont bother to check for yourself.

Originally posted by fuku893:

automiss on a 1 by mobs doesnt even appear to function..

no, mobs do miss, just read the combat messages and you'll see, assuming that your toon isnt a glass cannon


The red champion(or reaper) ogre that is doing their hop skip jump 3x hit..never seen one miss. Inconsequential misses balance the spreadsheet..except they dont do they? Because that demographic needs to have similar math if it isn't cheating, doesn't it.

Originally posted by fuku893:

player attack slows down for no legitimate mechanical reason..

thats a harder take, sometimes that genuinely is lag, sometimes its due to specific animations that are being triggered


You think its lag. I know the players have a delayed input that has nothing to do with lag(neither latency nor loss) that is responsible for spell execution loss(you hit it animates, nothing happens), "ladder bug" and all sorts of other things. Mobs are further programmed to exploit this. For instance mobs stop outside of your melee reach(intentionally) to attack you but should you click a spell they will step into your hand(they can occupy your space which is also a "bug" that was deliberately added thus negating your cast(that they know you did and negated before it happened with something that is the result of a string of "bugs".



I will get to your other stuff at some point perhaps...but you really have enough to reexamine your views.

Originally posted by fuku893:

player movement is slower than it was a coupel years ago(in spite of all effects being the same and that mob movement hasnt)...

again subjective, a number of the bugs have been fixed - a one point the pendant of time worked on top of haste and enhanced speed etc, but equally outside of quest we have horses, and in quest we have more than enough vengeance and doom reapers to need to worry about maximum speeds.

Originally posted by fuku893:

None of this is opinion.

Sorry, but yes it is, and its subjective opinion at that

Originally posted by fuku893:

One of us is condescending, it isn't me.

Again sorry, but you are. Your stating facts that are at best subjective views and then attacking responses. Ironically doing it in a place that few players tend to respond (playing DDO via Steam has always been a bad idea - tried it both ways and Steam just adds issues all of its own and no, thats not subjective, it was confirmed both by Steam and Turbine (as was)).

Originally posted by fuku893:

The fact that changes are old doesnt make them irrelevant.

Ah, something we do agree on, true, undeniable. Also,in this instance it is a fact that is provable.

Originally posted by fuku893:

You seem to have missed the thrust that years of changes that make it less dnd are a problem.

And again here we get subjective, what is DnD? Have been playing on and off since the 80's, The very nature of the game has been to evolve, and the MMO is not really that different. If you want a more 'real' DnD experience, go and play something like Solasta - but even that has variances from the core books. The developers do whats needed to make the game playable and fun, and truth be told that works, people have been playing it for quite some time.

Originally posted by fuku893:

The fact that the game continues to limp along because a small number of people are pandered to

a statement that gets rolled out every few months but with no evidence to back it up. How are these 'small number of people' being appeased? Most of the changes actually depower there favourite builds, weaken setups they have taken years to perfect, is it the new quests? well, no because thats for everyone, so what is it exactly and on what evidence do you base that statement

Originally posted by fuku893:

and bankroll it

again, a comment that is rolled out often, and yet the published figures by EQ7 dispute that and show that there is a healthy spread of payments being made, and whilst DDO Players may pay more per person than other games, the published numbers dont match the idea that its being bankrolled by a small number (unless you simply define the player base as a small number in the first instance)

Originally posted by fuku893:

while being the cause of the exodus of the rest

right, again, subjective with no evidence. Claims about calamitous changes and mass exodus are made all the time, but neither the numbers or the reality seem to back this up. By all means present evidence to the contrary, but merely saying it does not make it so. if you want to say it, that's fine, but in which case it become - 'in my opinion'

My statements are objective and not opinion. You are simply wrong.

Edit: I put responses to your first few points above. Clearly I am not great at the format for this forum. That has no bearing on my observations or their accuracy.

[Doug]

Originally posted by fuku893:

Originally posted by Realitysleeps:

right, again, subjective with no evidence. Claims about calamitous changes and mass exodus are made all the time, but neither the numbers or the reality seem to back this up. By all means present evidence to the contrary, but merely saying it does not make it so. if you want to say it, that's fine, but in which case it become - 'in my opinion'

My statements are objective and not opinion. You are simply wrong.

Umm.. not even close. Just because you say and believe it, that doesn't make it objective truth. Besides which, you're provably wrong at the heart of your argument. You go on and on about how DDO isn't D&D despite the fact that the creator of D&D said it was. Who the hell do you think you are? Seriously?

[fuku893]

Originally posted by Doug:

Originally posted by fuku893:

My statements are objective and not opinion. You are simply wrong.

Umm.. not even close. Just because you say and believe it, that doesn't make it objective truth. Besides which, you're provably wrong at the heart of your argument. You go on and on about how DDO isn't D&D despite the fact that the creator of D&D said it was. Who the hell do you think you are? Seriously?

There is a temporal component that negates your view Doug but frankly I don't need to "be somebody" to declare water wet.. in fact that is the foundation of rationalism..and proof you arent.

[Doug]

Originally posted by fuku893:

My statements are objective and not opinion. You are simply wrong.

But here's the kicker. You make two arguments, one of which I've pointed out is wrong on the face of it: that DDO isn't D&D. You don't get to decide that. And none of your so-called 'evidence' matters or counts.

But the other is more telling. You claim DDO cheats. You have all kinds of unproven assertions about how the AI cheats and is out to get you. This is even more nonsensical. Why? Why would it? Why would it NEED to? You have no power in this equation; the devs literally write the rules. Why would they need to fudge them? It's ludicrous. And you really should see someone about that paranoia. Though there's really no point; paranoia is untreatable.

[Doug]

Originally posted by fuku893:

Originally posted by Doug:

Umm.. not even close. Just because you say and believe it, that doesn't make it objective truth. Besides which, you're provably wrong at the heart of your argument. You go on and on about how DDO isn't D&D despite the fact that the creator of D&D said it was. Who the hell do you think you are? Seriously?

There is a temporal component that negates your view Doug but frankly I don't need to "be somebody" to declare water wet.. in fact that is the foundation of rationalism..and proof you arent.

Most of the changes you have used as 'evidence' (they aren't) predated Gygax's passing. So no. Unless you pick more recent examples, your arguments are null and void.