Warlocks and ED's.

[Diogenes]

Is it my imagination, or do Warlocks start in the wrong ED sphere?

There isn't much that they can really take advantage of in the Arcane Karma sphere, looking at it.

Most Warlock's use Radiance damage, because there are few creatures that can resist that damage type, and the Arcane Karma abilities, in any tree, don't really do anything to help that...

In fact, I don't think that the Warlocks tree's themselves, in any of them, use any elemental based damage type. Elemental being Fire, Water, Earth and Air. i know that they use force and sonic damage, but those options are severely limited in their appeal and the corresponding skill trees / ED's. The ONLY benefit a Warlock is going to receive, comes from increasing their spell DC's, and that will only really be used on Necromancy based drain spells, like Wail of the Banshee and Energy Drain.

The further thought occurs to me that, if that is the case, then an ED specifically for Pale Masters / Warlocks, needs to be developed, because the current ED's don't cut it, for those purposes.

However, skip over to the Paladin / Clerical side of things, and they have quite a few options open, in the Exaulted Angel and Unyielding Sentinel tree's. One for spell power, the other for personal defense.

It seems like a really strange design choice to me, to put Warlocks in the casters sphere, when there isn't really much there that they can benefit from. Warlocks are not casters in the traditional sense of the term, like Mages, Artificiers and Sorcerors.

The ONLY question I do have, is whether or not Light spell power affects the amount of evil damage done through Utterdark Blast? If it does not, then that puts Utterdark Blast builds, at a severe disadvantage DPS wise, when compared to Enlightened Spirit builds.

[Doug]

I'd pretty much agree. Although the fire and acid pact damages would benefit from some of the Arcane EDs, that's a pretty small fraction of a Warlock's repertoire. Still, Finger and Wail DCs and Spell Penetration are critical. In epics, insta-kills are king. DPS is for losers. :)

Even Shiradi would be better, DPS-wise, since its effects also proc on spells.

Yes, Light spellpower affects Utterdark Blast. And even my non-ES builds always take the Light bonus damage in the ES tree for that reason. Add a Lantern Ring for even more fun. Utterdark Blast also has the benefit of reducing the number of spellpowers you need to two: Light and whichever is your Pact.

And a few past lives in Morninglord are helpful for the same reason: additional Light spellpower.

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by Doug:

I'd pretty much agree. Although the fire and acid pact damages would benefit from some of the Arcane EDs, that's a pretty small fraction of a Warlock's repertoire. Still, Finger and Wail DCs and Spell Penetration are critical. In epics, insta-kills are king. DPS is for losers. :)

Even Shiradi would be better, DPS-wise, since its effects also proc on spells.

Yes, Light spellpower affects Utterdark Blast. And even my non-ES builds always take the Light bonus damage in the ES tree for that reason. Add a Lantern Ring for even more fun. Utterdark Blast also has the benefit of reducing the number of spellpowers you need to two: Light and whichever is your Pact.

And a few past lives in Morninglord are helpful for the same reason: additional Light spellpower.

Thanks for clarifying.

I honestly can't think of any spells or spell damage types that take advantage of the Warlocks own abilities, when the Warlock is using the Arcane Sphere. Almost all of it, is completely off. There are very, very few useful synergies available, in that sphere.

I went back into DDO last night, after I shut it down, and I went through all the spells and spell damage type skills, and no matter where I looked, i came back to the same conclusion. The Warlock starts in the wrong sphere.

Even in the Exaulted Angel sphere, the Warlock gets not only SLA's which tie in perfectly with his own Enlightened Scholar tree, but also spell DC's and Light Spell Power. For tank based Warlocks, there is the Unyielding Sentinel tree. Each of those trees offer distinctly better synergies for the Warlock, than the Arcane Sphere.

The only conclusion that I could reach, is that they start in the wrong sphere which, in my opinion, denotes bad planning on the side of Turbine, because I don't think that they really thought it through.

[Doug]

Originally posted by Diogenes:

The only conclusion that I could reach, is that they start in the wrong sphere which, in my opinion, denotes bad planning on the side of Turbine, because I don't think that they really thought it through.

Can't say I think you're wrong. It's particularly vexing since Warlock is a very good first life choice for VIPs, since it's less dependent on gear than many another option.

I expect they threw it into the Arcane sphere simply because it fits there thematically, though I guess you could make the argument that it would fit equally well in Divine, since it connects to other-plane entities for its power.

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by Doug:

Originally posted by Diogenes:

The only conclusion that I could reach, is that they start in the wrong sphere which, in my opinion, denotes bad planning on the side of Turbine, because I don't think that they really thought it through.

Can't say I think you're wrong. It's particularly vexing since Warlock is a very good first life choice for VIPs, since it's less dependent on gear than many another option.

I expect they threw it into the Arcane sphere simply because it fits there thematically, though I guess you could make the argument that it would fit equally well in Divine, since it connects to other-plane entities for its power.

Not only that, but if you take a Bladeforged, 1 Paladin / 19 Warlock, then they can have excellent self heals. If you want to go 1 Paladin, 1 Rogue, 18 Warlock, then that would work very well also, at the expense of 2 caster levels and the cap stones for reaching 20. That would be an excellent solo class, for both surviving, self healing and trapping. I am not sure about DPS though.

I think that the reason they are less gear dependent is because they get alot of false life anyway, through their own skills, and bags of immunity, especially if you go down the Unyielding Sentinel route, because you can put deathblock on your armour at very little cost. That's False Life, Feather Fall, Immunity to Fear and Deathblock right there and then, just through skills alone, and a DPS skill, in the form of Eldritch Blast, that doesn't cost anything to cast. They basically become a Two Weapon Fighter, using EB's, instead of two Longswords. The only spells that they end up ever really needing to cast, is Communion of Scribing, for self heals and Displace for more protection, as well as the SLA's from Exaulted Angel, maybe.

I thought that the reason why Warlocks started in the Arcane Sphere, was because their playstyle is basically supposed to be Energy Drain + Eldritch Blast. Drain enemies down, blast them to finish them off. But that doesn't work either because, while there might be DC based skills that Warlocks can use in the Arcane Sphere, there isn't anything that they can use to enhance their base force DPS, and they can't use elemental damage types.

To me, Divine just makes so much more sense, especially from the synergies between Elightened Spirit and Exaulted Angel. Again, if I wanted more tankyness, I could probably go down the Enlightened Spirit route, with Unyielding Sentinel, and a couple of twists for Light SP and Soundburst in the Exaulted Angel tree. That could work either way though, as far as twists go.

What makes me angry though, is the work involved in getting him to that Sphere, because of Turbines bad planning. It's either hours of grinding, or £25 worth of ED keys in the store.

[Doug]

Originally posted by Diogenes:

What makes me angry though, is the work involved in getting him to that Sphere, because of Turbines bad planning. It's either hours of grinding, or £25 worth of ED keys in the store.

Only an issue if it's your first life to go into Epic Destinies. And if it's actually your first life, I wouldn't recommend that anyway.. much more value in a couple of TRs for additional stat points (and more, if not VIP). Still, some might call it bad planning. I chose my first life to go ED carefully, along with the succeeding lives that would open up the other spheres, so that I would have maximum ED flexibility as quickly as possible. Of course, now that all my EDs are maxed, it's a non-issue; I can choose any ED based on any heroic life.

[Lasagna]

Originally posted by Diogenes:

Originally posted by Doug:

What makes me angry though, is the work involved in getting him to that Sphere, because of Turbines bad planning. It's either hours of grinding, or £25 worth of ED keys in the store.

You need to max out every ED for twists of fate anyways, and it really doesn't take that long to cross Keys are a total waste of money.

[Lasagna]

Draconic can be a decent starting destiny for Fiend/GOO pact warlocks as they do fire/acid damage instead of sonic, Energy Burst / Dragon Breath are both pretty nice.


Of course a DPS blasting warlock is still better played in Shiradi with Energy burst twisted in, but Warlock DPS is utterly garbage except to new players, Warlocks in mid to high skull reaper are optimally played in Exalted Angel as DC/CC instakill casters.

[Soap]

I don't have a warlock, but I think warlocks technically start in the correct ED sphere because their spells are considered arcane. It's also not uncommon that the starting sphere is not the best one. To an extent, it's working as intended because epic destinies are meant to be able to be swapped in between quests to have the best tool for the job so to speak.

However, all the current epic destinies were added before warlock, so yeah there may not have been a plan for warlock at that point. I'm not sure.

The suggestions The Baron gave make sense to me even though I don't know warlock well. As a reminder, maxing destinies gives access to epic destiny feats.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destiny_Feat

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by wTp.Soap:

However, all the current epic destinies were added before warlock, so yeah there may not have been a plan for warlock at that point. I'm not sure.

I think that is exactly what it is to be honest.

On top of that, I might be off saying this, but I think with a big update like that, which class releases are, given that they always draw a lot of attention from the band of the faithful, I think that Turbine might have rushed the release somewhat, so that they could stick to their scheduling system. Hence, why he's in that tree, and not in any of the others.

As far as casters go, that tree suits every other caster type, except Pale Masters and ED's. Artificiers, Bards, Sorcs and Wizards are very at home in that sphere.

The Warlock just feels like the odd one out, to me.

[P13]

There are 4 class themes that fit into one of 4 ED themes
Arcane - Wizard, Artificer, Sorcerer, Warlock, Bard
Divine - Cleric, FvS, Paladin
Martial - Fighter, Monk, Rogue
Primal - Druid, Barbarian, Ranger

There was no "Oh this class uses X better than Y, so it starts in Z sphere", it's "This class is X, it goes in X sphere".

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by ADG P13:

There are 4 class themes that fit into one of 4 ED themes
Arcane - Wizard, Artificer, Sorcerer, Warlock, Bard
Divine - Cleric, FvS, Paladin
Martial - Fighter, Monk, Rogue
Primal - Druid, Barbarian, Ranger

There was no "Oh this class uses X better than Y, so it starts in Z sphere", it's "This class is X, it goes in X sphere".

Which is exactly how it works with the normal classes. I have no problem using the fighter ED, on a fighter, or the Draconic tree on a sorc. That's how it is supposed to be. However, that isn't the same for a Warlock, since the Warlock class was released at a much later date. The Warlock also, is not the same as a traditional caster. You can tell that, by how he synergises with the arcane sphere. The synergies, along with the Warlocks base spell damage type are all wrong. Hence the point of the thread. The synergies between the Warlock and the Arcane Sphere are poor.

Personally, I don't see how a Warlock fits into the Primal Sphere. I've looked in that tree extensively, and that is the least likely tree into which a Warlock fits. There is almost no synergy for a Warlock in any of those tree's what so ever.

The Arcane Sphere is questionable for a Warlock due to the Warlocks base damage types conflicting with the base damage types in Draconic Lineage, and they can't use the bard skills very well, in my opinion.

I can see where a Warlock might fit into the Martial Sphere, if he took a few fighter levels and used the Legendary Dreadnaught ED. However, you would probably go all melee, and not even bother with EB, which sort of defeats the point of using EB. Your melee DPS would also probably be poorer than a pure fighter.

The Divine Sphere though... My god. The synergies are through the roof.

He becomes, virtually, a perfect all rounder. High HP, High AC, High SP, High Spell Power and more survivability in general. By using the divine sphere, I have got almost 650 light SP, which I am sure I can get to over 700, if I can find an insightful radiance item, with a 43% chance to crit on the Warlocks standard EB. Using the Legendary Burnscar Sash, which I use for Consecration, I have over 700 Fire and Acid SP, with 49% chance to crit. My Warlock has over 2,000 HP using Stanch, over 160 AC, and over 120 PRR and MRR. His saves aren't too shabby either. I'm not saying that it's not possible to find better synergies elsewhere, but I do honestly believe that going into the divine sphere, provides the best result for a light based Warlock.

For a light based Warlock though, the Divine Sphere has it all. Increased SP, increased AC, increased HP. Everything you need, can be found on one or two tree's. As a bonus, using Endless Faith, EB, and a fully upgraded communion of scribing spell, Bladeforged / Warforged Warlocks make the use of rest shrines completely obsolete, if self healing is a factor which, to me, it is. Going for a main tree in any other ED, for a light based Warlock, just doesn't make enough practical sense.