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1. It’s a game.
2. People like different things.
If you’re not having fun, it’s objectively kinda silly not to do something else. That’s enough justification to stop playing by itself; even when it’s simply due to a natural adverse reaction to change. It happens often in MMO games.
Throwing all the fake, and falsified justifications, end of times conspiracy theories, misinformation on top, and preemptively name calling those who might disagree—makes the argument worse, not better. There’s a lot wrong with that. I think Doug’s done a good job pointing that out.
Misinformation from gamers is hurting gaming as a whole, more than it’s individually hurting the games the misinformation tries to hurt.
Someone goes around not knowing what p2w means, only using the negative connotation to try to convince others not to play. Then the misinformation about p2w spreads and hurts multiple games.
It hurts games that aren’t p2w more because there’re more of them, and the people who want to play p2w games know the difference. Worst of all, the games which get mislabeled p2w, could be games which even those who spread the misinformation might enjoy. They’ll read false claims of p2w about a different game and avoid it all the same, not even knowing when they don’t even share the same misconceptions of what p2w is. Like a lemming following a candy nerd.
Gamers are hurting themselves in the long term by confusing games that aren’t p2w with those that are.
DDO simply isn’t a p2w game. There are only two things one could argue are p2w aspects in the DDO: the hardcore player achievement lists, and PvP. But those things are not part of design of the game. Laughably far from it. So even showing those are p2w aspects doesn’t make DDO p2w.
But for the record, no one can show DDO’s PvP is p2w anyway. It’s truly a ridiculous notion.
It’s true that the USA currency is one of the highest valued. It’s also true that due to a country’s production, trade, and other things down the chain like taxes and subsidies, some things can become cheaper or more expensive than in other countries; but this is true for ALL countries.
There are plenty of Americans who cannot afford homes or food, let alone gaming computers and games. Standard of living and accessibility are one thing. Affordability is a different thing.
What also happens, is that a country makes a law/tax on a good that isn’t domestic, making it harder for their population to afford it. Game companies have been trying to combat things like that by reducing their prices in certain countries to make games more affordable. When it’s a USA game; that’s essentially Americans subsidizing games only for populations of other countries. This literally means that Americans aren’t the only one’s who benefit from America, and relatively—games can be more affordable and accessible in some cases for people of other countries than the USA.
Let’s also remember that the USA isn’t the only America.
I’m all for having all the quest content available through Steam. That topic comes around here often enough. It would help out USA players to the same end. Not all USA players can buy from the DDO marketplace.
The waiting for new expansions to be available for points—I don’t think has a simple answer. Part of it definitely has to do with marketing, and part has to do with the playerbase. Much of DDO’s planning seems based around using subs to project what they can do a certain length of time into the future.
But they’re probably getting data from other games too, not just DDO and LotRO. Turbine had data before making DDO. Whoever’s been doing the marketing could be using data from games we wouldn’t even guess. They may very well look at foreign games too.
DDO’s history may play a bigger role than we know. There certainly could be some changes SSG can make to dated marketing strategies; that’s something they started doing this year. But perhaps there’re also things they can’t change. Things that could be changed if they were for example, making a DDO 2. It may even be something of a, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Perhaps Steam is one of those things.
Most companies just don’t give details on such things. The SSG employees who talk with players probably don’t even know that amount of info.
It’s actually a really common thing in the USA to have to wait in a similar fashion for certain options with products. Very common in gaming in particular. Didn’t preorder that new handheld? Didn’t buy the special-especially expensive model of graphics card to get yourself on a priority list. Aren’t related to a rich celeb or AMD ceo? Don’t live on the west coast? Don’t own a company that’s purchasing in bulk? Yer gonna have ta wait.
im not going to bother with the other two responses, because you lost all credibility by not understanding fundamentals.
but that last part... please point out where i was having issues with builds beeing nerfed, or unusable, or balanced, or getting better, or whatever other nonsense you want to put in my mouth. i was responding to the "mini expansion" and the issues around it, NOT on update51 and its balancing changes.
but you seem to mistake me with someone else.
i just said that you could argue that it is p2w because doug seems to have difficulties understanding basics.
but to elaborate a little bit on it:
the moment i can buy something to get me an advantage over another player, its exactly that.
no matter if its available trough gameplay or not.
we are holding this against other games, so we have to keep the same standard to ddo.
buying ability tomes? i gain direct power.
buying ap-tomes,skill-tomes, fate-tomes? i get more power.
buying raidtimer-bypasses? i get more chances on raidloot and thus faster progression.
-chest rerolls help even more with that.
buying gold-seal hires? i can do certain or harder quests without another person.
buying ottos boxes, hearts? faster endgame progression.
buying difficulty unlocks? i can get faster progression.
all those things directly give the paying player a direct adantage.
wheter in tavern-pvp (as laughable as it may sound, its competitive after all and an aspect of this game) or, as you mentioned, in the hcl leaderboards, which are also competitive by their nature. or simply doing harder level content with your party.
todays f2p games revolve around keeping the player engaged as long as possible , wheter if with grinds, timegates, or paywalled content (that you can unlock via grinded currency to convert to store-currency).
the paying player gets faster progress, and is thus "winning" against the f2p player.
best example would be cryptics neverwinter, or pearl abyss' black desert.
both widely seen as p2w.
you can play those completely free.
but you >CAN< pay an exorbitant amount of money to skip the gameplay (ie: grinding for materials or currency) to be able to get to the endgame faster. (in bdo as an example, getting an edge in the nodewars pvp activity)
and before you ask: pvp in neverwinter is dead, and bdo does not revolve completely around it, so we are at the same issue with those 2 games as with the ddo tavern.
You really are serious? Because by your definition EVERY game is P2W if it isn't sub-only or doesn't just sell cosmetics. As soon as it sells one single healing potion, it becomes P2W by your definition.
Nope. That's just noise. Lots of noise with lots of details, but still just noise. If there's no differentiation between "I can buy something" and "If I don't buy stuff, I can't play effectively," then there'd be no need for a term like P2W in the first place.
So no. Your definition for P2W doesn't hold water.
'Advantage' |= winning. Convenience |= winning.
If you don't like the definition for winning I've used (that you actually have to 'need' the items to compete and play effectively), then you need to come up with a new one that isn't sheer nonsense.
It isn’t competitive by design. It’s just data by design. Data that’s in every game.
Players can get to the top of the list through cooperative play, and everyone on the hardcore server can work together if they choose. In my experience, most do. The hardcore server is restricted to subs, except for once when they let everyone play on it free.
I was selected to be an officer by the leader of one of the initial mass recruiting guilds during the free run of it, and there was one or more players who went around buying the biggest airship for guilds.
Then everyone was donating plat to get buffs as we worked together to level up the guild. I didn’t experience or see any competitive actions performed by any players against each other. It’s possible it could happen.
There was a sense of a sort of Hogwarts pride rivalry between guilds, as we all watched each other’s guild levels rise each day. But these guilds all quested together cooperatively. I never saw any foul play. It was just lots of players sharing a love of DDO.
It wasn’t even remotely comparable to the PvP casinos that are P2W Korean games like BDO. That’d be like comparing cute little, heart-shaped, cookie-puppies cuddling, to the movie, Casino.
It’s a real chore to find anything remotely competitive multiplayer even on the hardcore server. It’s just that list—that only in some cases, between some players, might be, if those particular players choose it. But they don’t gain anything from it other than bragging rights. The competitive PvP stuff seems more to come on the forums, after the season ends and the lists are published. Then some of the top players argue with each other in true PvP fashion...on the forums.
So the lists, as far as I can tell, are only creating competition on the forums, not in-game. Which makes sense, as it’s just data to brag about.
Now, I still don’t like some of the items available for purchase on Hardcore. There are definitely things which give some advantages. I’m pretty strongly against that on principle. I don’t like paid cheats in games. Having the biggest guild ship on day 1 is a big advantage. But again, it’s not comparable to games which do use the P2W model as the basis for the design of their whole game.
I could write more about my experience. But I’ll just conclude with, it’s still my opinion that the list is competitive multiplayer, and having advantages sold in the store added to that, creates the potential for P2W. But it’s the least amount of P2W I’ve ever seen. In fact I didn’t even see it, it was so small.
And it was so fun, that it’s the only thing DDO has ever come out with that got me considering subbing. Doubt I ever will. But still. That’s a big deal.
Pretty much agreed on each and every point. A game becomes P2W when it becomes necessary for me to Invest money Into It, In order to progress, even after I've already subscribed. I've brought a few characters to level 20 over the years (I play on and off In bursts of a few weeks/months) since DDO went F2P, currently working on my first epic level character and I've yet to run Into an Instance where I've thought to myself "Well, I can't progress until I Invest more money here". Almost everything can be earned In-Game and what cannot (or at least, Is feasible) such as the expansions, we have to be realistic about, the developers are running a business, not a charity. Are the expansions worth the asking price? maybe, maybe not, but that's besides the point.
Everything Is a convinience, potions, gold seal hirelings, tomes, etc. That doesn't make the game P2W, If It does to someone, either their view of what P2W really Is, Is skewed or they don't understand what the concept actually means.
that noise comes from you not understanding what is beeing written. i clearly wrote, once again, that you could ARGUE that it is, i never said it was.
again putting words in anothers mouth. nice one.
btw, have you found the passage i was complaining about the builds etc? still waiting.
until then, nothing but noise to distract instead of offering an apology.
everything is just data. at the end of the day, competition is nothing more but bragging rights to be on top of a list, on top of a leaderboard, on top of a guild, on top of anything.
but this competition is what people crave, and strife for to be the best. sure, i dont like the node wars in bdo as an example, im a lifer.
so now i dont have any p2w issues with the game, since for me the node wars are a non-starter. but they are still there, and you can "p2w" your way on top of the food chain in that regard.
or you can just play and grind and get there eventually without spending a dime.
same applies to ddo.
the hardcore leaderboard is there for a reason. a psychological to be clear. its to spark the competition in people that strife for competition even more.
its to show off your owns mastering of the game. and wheter you like it or not, you can "buy" your way to the top, while a f2p player struggles in comparrison. (that has nothing to do with skil etc, we are talking about an even playing field for everyone, just as in every other game).
i have no doubt players can get to the top without any purchase, it would just take time.
but you can skip all that by directly getting power in the store and thus getting a direct advantage over another player.
the parallels are there. im not saying it is, im just argueing that you can clearly see how one can come to that conclusion.
but the topic here is not about all that, it was about the "mini-expansion" and how ssg wont offer to a broader market and/or different selling sites.
instead of doing something like that, they are over-monetizing the game from withhin in about every aspect. and everything is either convenienve or related to player-power.
Lol no. That’s just semantic equivocation. You’re trying to talk in ambiguous ways to make it seem like you weren’t wrong about basically everything you said in the thread. You’re intentionally using the word “data” ambiguously. I wasn’t. I was very clearly talking about specific data.
You’re still wrong about basically everything you said. See, I can be ambiguous too.
Let’s be specific here though. Your continued persistence to intentionally misconstrue things is not constructive conversation.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/206480/discussions/0/3076503022324843259/#c3052859736121744655
why thanks. so let me get this right:
its just the lesser evil? and it also relies on the whales? (as seen on https://www.enadglobal7.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/EG7-Investor-Presentation-Dec-2020-Acquires-Daybreak-Games.pdf low playerbase compared to others but higher ARPPU).
and actually a good guess on your part, i was one of those whales and i spent a little over 2k over the last 15 years. i took breaks here and there but never let my subs lapse and always bought points and the higher end bundles.
so ddo has still an outrageous amount of monetization, its just not in the 160k range. (an outliner in the f2p market).