Dungeons & Dragons Online®

Dungeons & Dragons Online®

Experienced MMO/D&D player needs help with DDO
Hey folks!

So I've played a ton of other MMOs, and have tried DDO off and on over a few years, but I cannot get the hang of the twitch aspect of it.

Look, I totally get the general fighting style - I've played the Arkham games and lots of FPSs, but I absolutely cannot figure out how to easily use active skills during combat. In other MMOs, you can let go of the movement keys on the keyboard to use the active skills keyed to numbers because moving around a lot in combat isn't necessary, but in DDO, there's a ton of movement and I have no time to take my hand off of the movement keys or divert my mouse away from turning in order to hit/click one of the numbers to activate a skill while I'm fighting.

How the heck do you do this? I could conceivably hotkey some of the critical skills to Q, E, C and some of the other letters close by (I haven't tried yet so it may not be possible), but that's only useful up to a few active skills. More than 4 or 5 and it gets crazy. Suggestions?

Also, I usually favor pallies or mages, but since rogue followers require DDO points and I HATE missing chests, locked doors, and running through traps, I've been making more rogue toons. I love them, and use a cleric hireling to tank and keep me alive since I do 99% soloing on quests. However, my background in normal 3.5 D&D has not prepared me well to make a good rogue build in DDO. I've done some research, but I cannot figure out how viable a rogue is for soloing long term. Can I make it on just me and a cleric hireling all the way up to 20?
Автор останньої редакції: BigBadBootyBaby; 3 лип. 2018 о 12:31
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Показані коментарі 1630 із 48
Цитата допису ianvass:
Oh, another question - I thought that a drow was perfect for a rogue since they get bonuses in Dex, Cha, and Int, but I'm reading that the penalty to Con makes them a poor choice. Don't the bonuses make up for it, or is it a net zero or net loss point wise to bring them to 14 Con even with the 6 extra points in other areas?

Drow is great for a rogue, especially if you don't have 32 point builds unlocked. 2 points in Con makes a difference of 1HP/level.. by itself, it's not enough to matter. OTOH, 1 additional AC or DC can make a ton of difference over the life of a toon.
Цитата допису ianvass:
So how do I keep enemy aggression on my cleric hireling instead of on the guy totally sneak attacking them? And I guess it doesn't matter where I am when I sneak attack so long as their attention is elsewhere?

A couple of other notes:
If you're going Assassin build, once you hit L12 you can take the Tier 5 enhancement that lets you insta-kill one or two mobs from sneak every 6 seconds (assuming you can return to sneak mode after the first kill). Not sure if the two kills requires TWF, or just doublestrike or ??? At high levels and difficulties, a well-played assassin with a decent Assassinate DC will out-kill almost any other toon in a group. Solo's still tough, though. Mobs tend to come in largish groups.

Those I know of who solo rogues tend to go for the no-kill or low-kill quest completions. Just like there's bonus XP for killing lots of mobs in a quest, there's also bonus XP for killing as few as possible. From DDOwiki:

'Killing monsters: Killing a large portion of the monsters present can confer
+10% Aggression bonus
+15% Onslaught bonus
+25% **Conquest** bonus

Not killing monsters: On the flip side, completing a mission while slaying very few enemies can grant
+5% Discreet bonus
+7% Devious bonus
+10% **Insidious Cunning** bonus'

This is a much more challenging way to play than the typical 'zerg through and mow everything down' approach. However, it can be even more satisfying when you pull it off. Be aware that some quests have monsters that must be killed in order for the quest to progress, so this isn't always possible.
There's one other option, and it requires a totally different direction (and is what I'm currently playing). A crossbow rogue built properly can mow down large groups of enemies almost constantly. I played this build last life and quite often killed half the mobs when in full groups. It dispenses with sneaky and very seldom gets sneak attack damage (because the DPS is high enough to generally grab tons of aggro). While you'll have several sneak attack dice, you simply won't get sneak damage often (barring the use of such things as Deception items).

My build is 6 Rogue, 8 Arti, 6 Ranger. Race isn't really important if you have 32 pt builds (or better). Otherwise, go Drow. You really only need Dex, Con, & Int. Dex to-hit and Int to damage is the most likely. Doesn't hurt that Dex & Int also help with Rogue skills. Low Con won't hurt you too much if you're willing to backpedal as required. You can't afford to invest 12 pts into Harper for Int for both to-hit and damage until almost Heroic cap (L20), but at L6 Rogue (character L10), you'll get Int to damage from Rogue Core 3: Targeting Sights. Dex is the most critical (see below), followed by Int. Ideally either take enough Str so that Ray of Enfeeblement won't make you helpless, or don't stand still so they can't hit you with it.

Level progression I've chosen as ideal: (A=Arti, R=Rogue, Ra= Ranger)
RAAARARRRR(6Ra)AAAA
All AP into Arti Battle Engineer until you get Endless Fusillade + 3x Extra Action Boost (24AP)
Then all AP into Rogue Mechanic until you get 4 of the 5 Tier 5 abilities (skip Time Bomb) (39AP)
Feats as follows:

1 PBS Point Blank Shot
2(1a) RR Rapid Reload
3 RS [?? <L12] Rapid Shot
3(2a) Runearm
6 Completionist
6(4a) PS [?? <L14] Precise Shot
9 Precision
12 Imp Crit: Ranged
12(2ra) RS Rapid Shot
14(4ra) PS Precise Shot
15 IPS Improved Precise Shot
18 ??

IPS requires Dex 19. In order to get that, you either need to start Drow or put enough levelups into Dex to have 'base' Dex of 19 by L15 ('base' stat only counts initial starting value + levelups + tomes).

If you don't have Completionist, take Precision earlier, or go for Dodge.
Note that there are two [?? <Lnn] notations. Those feats will be auto-granted at the noted level by Ranger levels, so you can swap them out JUST before taking the indicated level for other feats, if desired. Dodge, Mobility and Shot on the Run would be decent options for swaps and/or L18's feat.

Ideally, use a repeating crossbow from L2 until you get Endless Fusillade at L6, then switch to Great Crossbows.

This gets you:
Rogue skill bonuses at L1
Runearm by L3
Evasion L5
Endless Fusillade L6

From L6 on, you'll get 8 or 9 uses of Endless Fusillade per rest. That pretty much makes you an on-demand gatling gun. The synergy with Vorpal weapons is amazing.

Note that I've chosen the last 4 levels in Arti. That's the most flexible part of the build. You could choose to take them in any of the three classes (for example, to get a different past life). I went with Arti because Rogue mostly gives more sneak attack (and I've noted that this build gets little use from that), and Ranger L7-10 provides little of particular value except decent saving throws. Arti grabs another level of spells as well as a bonus feat. However, if you did the last 4 levels in Rogue, you could take a Rogue bonus feat at L20 and a couple of those are nice (e.g. Improved Evasion). That's only relevant if you'll continue playing into epic levels, of course.

Автор останньої редакції: Doug; 4 лип. 2018 о 10:31
Цитата допису Doug:
... Artificers can have a lot of trouble if the trap box is on the far side of the trap...

I have seen a situatiuon like this already and I'm still in the harbor.

I started another character to test it out with a rogue splash.

I wasn't thinking of adding ranger to it as well, but now I'm definately going to try a rogue/atri/ranger character.

I have so many characters, I want to try, LOL...
Цитата допису ZiffyHead:
Цитата допису Doug:
... Artificers can have a lot of trouble if the trap box is on the far side of the trap...

I have seen a situatiuon like this already and I'm still in the harbor.

I started another character to test it out with a rogue splash.

I wasn't thinking of adding ranger to it as well, but now I'm definately going to try a rogue/atri/ranger character.

I have so many characters, I want to try, LOL...

Don't we all.

Even with a rogue splash to get evasion, you still won't have the good Reflex save progression.

DDO has 3 BAB (Base Attack Bonus) progressions into which all classes fall, but only two saving throw progressions. Rogue gets the good Reflex progression and the bad Will and Fort progressions. Artificer gets only the good Will progression (poor Fort and Reflex). Ranger gets good Fort and Reflex. Thus, even an Artificer with Evasion is at risk from traps simply because in order to avoid their damage, it has to succeed in a Reflex save. A failure leads to full damage. At lower levels, the difference may be trivial, but the gap widens over time. In addition, Rogues get a bonus to saves vs traps every 3 levels (called Trap Sense) as well as Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge. Add all that together, and pure or near-pure Rogues will always survive traps best.

Still, the splash will help some.
OK, this is great info. Next question!

I picked Rogue because it seems there are so many traps and fewer locked chests/doors, and not having a rogue along seemed like suicide because DDO traps can totally wreck you if not dismantled. How the HECK do people solo without a rogue in their group? I suppose there are quest packs that have many fewer traps and there are others with a ton of traps, but how do people solo to 20 without a rogue?
Цитата допису ianvass:
How the HECK do people solo without a rogue in their group?

I'm up to lvl 13 by running a lvl 10 Barb / lvl 3 rouge. Multi-classing, got to love it.
Цитата допису NavFamG:
Цитата допису ianvass:
How the HECK do people solo without a rogue in their group?

I'm up to lvl 13 by running a lvl 10 Barb / lvl 3 rouge. Multi-classing, got to love it.

OK, but everything I read says that you had better be pretty maxed out on trap skills to get the higher level traps. 3 lvls of rogue don't seem like enough to handle those 13th level ones. Right? Or wrong and have I been going the mechanic route for nothing?
Цитата допису ianvass:
Цитата допису NavFamG:

I'm up to lvl 13 by running a lvl 10 Barb / lvl 3 rouge. Multi-classing, got to love it.

OK, but everything I read says that you had better be pretty maxed out on trap skills to get the higher level traps. 3 lvls of rogue don't seem like enough to handle those 13th level ones. Right? Or wrong and have I been going the mechanic route for nothing?


You do have to max trap skills (especially as a first-lifer) and probably need decent gear as well, but that doesn't require multiple rogue levels. Granted, on a level of rogue, the skills you want are class, rather than cross-class, so they're cheaper to increase and you also get more skill points on a rogue level than on any other class, but it is most certainly possible to max rogue skills with only 1 or a few levels of rogue.

Mechanic tree investment is certainly a good idea if you have any concerns about your trapping abilities.

Note that most rogues weak point is Spot. Once you know the quests and where the traps are, it becomes mostly a non-issue. However, since rogues have no need for Wis except as the basis of Spot, few invest in it and as a result, their ability to spot traps reduces at higher levels. Disable, being Int-based, is deeper in most Rogues' wheelhouse. So if you're investing in enhancements, keep that in mind. You may well need more Spot than Disable. And Pick Locks allows you to keep trying until you succeed (or roll a 20 and still fail), so you don't need as much of it, either.

Автор останньої редакції: Doug; 7 лип. 2018 о 10:34
Цитата допису ianvass:
OK, this is great info. Next question!

I picked Rogue because it seems there are so many traps and fewer locked chests/doors, and not having a rogue along seemed like suicide because DDO traps can totally wreck you if not dismantled. How the HECK do people solo without a rogue in their group? I suppose there are quest packs that have many fewer traps and there are others with a ton of traps, but how do people solo to 20 without a rogue?

If you know the quests, most traps can be timed, jumped, or otherwise avoided. No locked chest has anything other than trash loot, afair. And locked doors only tend to prevent quest completion in Raids, where it's expected that a party will be larger and more varied.

Also, barbarians face-search for traps. With a combination of high HP and bonus trap saves, they can often bull through them. Monks often simply have high enough saves (plus evasion) to dance through traps and avoid them. Clerics and FvS heal themselves through or after (depending on the difficulty). And many traps proc slowly enough that if you're running through at high enough speed, they'll proc behind you (so monk and barb running speed bonuses help them out again).
Автор останньої редакції: Doug; 7 лип. 2018 о 10:35
Цитата допису Doug:
Цитата допису ianvass:
OK, this is great info. Next question!

I picked Rogue because it seems there are so many traps and fewer locked chests/doors, and not having a rogue along seemed like suicide because DDO traps can totally wreck you if not dismantled. How the HECK do people solo without a rogue in their group? I suppose there are quest packs that have many fewer traps and there are others with a ton of traps, but how do people solo to 20 without a rogue?

If you know the quests, most traps can be timed, jumped, or otherwise avoided. No locked chest has anything other than trash loot, afair. And locked doors only tend to prevent quest completion in Raids, where it's expected that a party will be larger and more varied.

Also, barbarians face-search for traps. With a combination of high HP and bonus trap saves, they can often bull through them. Monks often simply have high enough saves (plus evasion) to dance through traps and avoid them. Clerics and FvS heal themselves through or after (depending on the difficulty). And many traps proc slowly enough that if you're running through at high enough speed, they'll proc behind you (so monk and barb running speed bonuses help them out again).

That's a good point, IF you know the quest. If you don't, then what? I've learned through hard experience that sprinting through a quest you don't know without being careful ends up being deadly, either because of traps or getting swarmed by too many mobs.

For a first lifer, what's a good toon aside from rogue? And what quests can be played without worrying about traps overmuch?
Цитата допису Doug:
Цитата допису ianvass:

OK, but everything I read says that you had better be pretty maxed out on trap skills to get the higher level traps. 3 lvls of rogue don't seem like enough to handle those 13th level ones. Right? Or wrong and have I been going the mechanic route for nothing?


You do have to max trap skills (especially as a first-lifer) and probably need decent gear as well, but that doesn't require multiple rogue levels. Granted, on a level of rogue, the skills you want are class, rather than cross-class, so they're cheaper to increase and you also get more skill points on a rogue level than on any other class, but it is most certainly possible to max rogue skills with only 1 or a few levels of rogue.

Mechanic tree investment is certainly a good idea if you have any concerns about your trapping abilities.

Note that most rogues weak point is Spot. Once you know the quests and where the traps are, it becomes mostly a non-issue. However, since rogues have no need for Wis except as the basis of Spot, few invest in it and as a result, their ability to spot traps reduces at higher levels. Disable, being Int-based, is deeper in most Rogues' wheelhouse. So if you're investing in enhancements, keep that in mind. You may well need more Spot than Disable. And Pick Locks allows you to keep trying until you succeed (or roll a 20 and still fail), so you don't need as much of it, either.

I hadn't thought about Spot in that way, that's a good point. Now that I've designed a rogue class character around the mechanic tree with crossbows, what's a good multiclass option for him? Rangers don't use crossbows, and I haven't paid for any premium classes. Low Str, Wis, and Cha, high Dex and Int.
Цитата допису ianvass:
Цитата допису Doug:


You do have to max trap skills (especially as a first-lifer) and probably need decent gear as well, but that doesn't require multiple rogue levels. Granted, on a level of rogue, the skills you want are class, rather than cross-class, so they're cheaper to increase and you also get more skill points on a rogue level than on any other class, but it is most certainly possible to max rogue skills with only 1 or a few levels of rogue.

Mechanic tree investment is certainly a good idea if you have any concerns about your trapping abilities.

Note that most rogues weak point is Spot. Once you know the quests and where the traps are, it becomes mostly a non-issue. However, since rogues have no need for Wis except as the basis of Spot, few invest in it and as a result, their ability to spot traps reduces at higher levels. Disable, being Int-based, is deeper in most Rogues' wheelhouse. So if you're investing in enhancements, keep that in mind. You may well need more Spot than Disable. And Pick Locks allows you to keep trying until you succeed (or roll a 20 and still fail), so you don't need as much of it, either.

I hadn't thought about Spot in that way, that's a good point. Now that I've designed a rogue class character around the mechanic tree with crossbows, what's a good multiclass option for him? Rangers don't use crossbows, and I haven't paid for any premium classes. Low Str, Wis, and Cha, high Dex and Int.

Ranger's still decent for a Rogue Mechanic if only for the auto-granted feats (Specifically Rapid Shot and Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot if you go that high). Also it's a high-skill-point class, which is helpful.

Other than that, the only real valuable option imo is Fighter for the bonus feats (and better BAB).

Can't think of a useful synergy for Barb or Bard. I've seen some decent backward multiclasses that splash Wiz for buffs (Haste and Displacement alone are worth a lot). Those almost always want Extend so they don't have to recast ridiculously often. And Shield is a vastly underrated spell: taking zero damage from magic missiles is awesome, but the AC boost is also nice.
Автор останньої редакції: Doug; 7 лип. 2018 о 16:50
Here are the tricks I've learned over the years to help with DDO gameplay.
If you don't like hitting late keys (say, 6 through =), don't. Simply add more hotbars with Shift, Control, Control-Shift, etc. You can usually hit control or shift (or both) with your pinkie and still get access to 1-5 pretty easily. Use the rest of these hotbars for things that you can click easily without worrying, such as out of combat buffs/clickies, etc. You can also certainly bind hotkeys to Q, E, C, etc. (and even Shift, Control, or Control-Shift versions of these keys) to get more keys in without having to use your right hand to hit keys.
Use T (by default) to toggle mouse look. That's basic and easy but one that took me surprisingly long to notice. I believe you can also hold the right mouse button to get the same effect temporarily or hold the middle mouse button to get free camera (rotates, but doesn't affect movement direction).
I personally run with five hotbars, two of which have no or minimal keybinds for the sake of things that I might need once per login (toggles, conjure bolts for artificers, weapon sets and gear that I won't need to change often, etc.) and then three bound up to the regular number keys, to shift and number keys, and control and number keys, with a few binds set for control-shift combos (I used to have a mouse with programmable buttons, but it was a piece of junk Logitech with a defective switch- it's easy enough to hit with keyboard anyway) that I use for weapon sets that I might need often, like my default (aka best damage), specialized against undead/outsiders/etc., and then one with ghost touch if the others don't have that.

Whoo, that was long. But I hope that helps with the layout things.

For rogue, I've only really run mechanic rogue. I've soloed at level 20 (not all the way, but good chunks solo and the rest with only one other person mostly) with a rogue and it's not a problem. Mechanic rogues have the advantage of being ranged, which is pretty strong. However, most builds are viable up through 20 on normal or hard if you have a healer hireling. On elite, you might have to try a little harder to build. I don't know what past lives or other bonuses you have (airship, tomes, etc.) but I would expect that a well built mechanic rogue can easily hit 20 without having to party up. On the other hand, assassins are designed for stealth kills (not that stealth is great with the changes to aggro in whatever update that was) but I haven't played one to 20 so I can't really help. I've also done very little thief acrobat, but I'd expect the hard part for them is gear- quarterstaves that are good in melee combat are few and far between, and even worse they break like toothpicks. I expect that I'd have the same problem with them that I had with my quarterstaff monk- having to carry four or five sticks for one quest. Still, they have some good defensive abilities so if you build for dodge you can even be pretty durable as a rogue.
Another tip for rogues is to look at the wiki for traps, especially if your spot is a tad low. The wiki will tell you where most traps are, so you can look like a master trapfinder when really you're frantically trying to buff your search/spot to find the trap that you know is there but your stats are a bit too low for. Carrying around goggles/jewelry of search/spot/disable device/open lock can be very helpful for rogues, especially first life rogues.
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Опубліковано: 3 лип. 2018 о 11:53
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