Not understanding why this is considered romantic

[Sigh Man Vanz]

It seems like Johnny erases his memory of the real River, in order to replace her with a "problem-free" one. Or at least, he replaces the memory of his real life, which included River's illness, with some fantasy where she and all the complications of real life are obliterated.

I dunno, something about erasing your actual memories of someone in order to replace them with an idealized version is not romantic at all to me. Yeah, life can be sad and has its disappointments, but real love involves working through those things, not living in a fantasy world. It seems like the real Johnny did his best, imperfect as he was, to accept and love River for who she actually was. Why is it romantic to change that?

Not trolling, just genuinely wondering if I missed something. I did like the game and got teary-eyed during the earlier parts, but the last part didn't sit right with me.

[O Trovador]

He does not replaces erase and I don't think he did want to replace the real River for fake one. Dr. Rosalene did it in order to complete her job.

The only reason Johnny wanted to go to the moon was to feel complete again by having River by his side again. That's why this desire showed up after River's dead.

---
EDIT: And that's why dr. Watts tried to stop dr. Rosalene. He understood Johnny's real desire.
---

I think that is romantic.

[Mr. Nobody]

Why does the end have to be romantic OP? I share a very similar opinion to you. The ending was bittersweet at best and that's what made it great.

There is a very good chance that if Johnny knew what his wish of going to the moon meant he wouldn't have went through with it at all regardless of whether it gave him a "happy" ending or not.

Eva couldn't just ignore her patient's wish, so she attempted to make the best of a bad situation. In the end, she fulfilled his wish of going to the moon and managed to keep River in his life to at least some extent. There isn't really much else she could have done.

The best part about the ending is that it's thought provoking and doesn't really have a definitive answer on whether it's really good or not.

[Sigh Man Vanz]

Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:

Why does the end have to be romantic OP? I share a very similar opinion to you. The ending was bittersweet at best and that's what made it great....

The best part about the ending is that it's thought provoking and doesn't really have a definitive answer on whether it's really good or not.

That's true. I guess the general vibe I got from the game's fans and reviews was one of uncritical adulation. If there was ambiguity in how we were supposed to feel about the ending, I wasn't seeing it reflected by anyone writing about the game (most people seem to describe it as a straightforward tear-jerker). That's what made me feel like I was missing something. Also, the end sequence on the bridge and in the rocketship are both framed as simple triumphs; if there was a note of ambiguity in them, I totally missed it.

Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:

In the end, she fulfilled his wish of going to the moon and managed to keep River in his life to at least some extent. There isn't really much else she could have done.

The part that reeeeeeeeeeally wasn't sitting well with me was the fact that, in the "new" timeline where River and Johnny become astronauts, it seems like River's mental illness has somehow just disappeared. As if the "happy" ending involved erasing part of who River was. That bugged me a lot. And in general, it seemed like the "new" timeline was supposed to seem like a happy ending because it avoided all of the messy compications involving River's condition, the couple's financial situation, etc. This was reinforced, for me, by earlier scenes where Rosalene and Watts remark that Johnny and River are making a mistake by getting married because they're going to face life difficulties down the road. (In contrast to the happy "new" timeline where no such problems seem to exist). Which is a really immature way to view adult relationships; it made me wonder how old the game's writer was.

Or maybe River still has her condition in the "new" timeline, but you'd hardly know it because she barely speaks. Which is par for the course for the rest of the game. I get that the game is mostly told from Johnny's perspective, but I feel like we never really get to know River. Her single-minded purpose in the story seems to be to get Johnny to remember something from his past. In other words, she exists for Johnny's benefit, not as an autonomous person. What else does River think about? What did she and Izzy talk about when they went outside the restaurant? We don't know because neither the game nor Johnny seem to care much. I wasn't sure if we were suppsoed to be picking up on this as an intentional "unreliable narrator" device, or if the game really just didn't care about River's inner life. And again, that made the ending doubly disturbing to me, in that this indifference toward River as a person was manifested by portraying her erasure (or at least the erasure of a major part of her personality) as some sort of triumph. Johnny gets his own single-minded way at the end, and we're supposed to applaud, even though it involves a complete or partial erasure of his wife. (And this didn't even seem consistent with Johnny's character as the game had earlier portrayed him. In the "old" timeline, he is a frustrated but devoted husband who loves River for who she is and tries to accommodate her condition. It made no sense that he would want to erase her, in whole or in part)

[Sigh Man Vanz]

Originally posted by O Trovador:

The only reason Johnny wanted to go to the moon was to feel complete again by having River by his side again. That's why this desire showed up after River's dead.

That makes a bit more sense to me. I guess the part that's not sitting right with me is that, in the "new" timeline, he's not sitting next to River in that rocketship. He's sitting next to some version of River that has been stripped of major parts of her personaltiy, including her condition. That doesn't seem like a loving vision to me.

[Mr. Nobody]

Originally posted by Not-So-Serious Sam:

Or maybe River still has her condition in the "new" timeline, but you'd hardly know it because she barely speaks.

There is no reason she wouldn't still have her condition. I'm confused why you would even assume she wouldn't still have it?

Originally posted by Not-So-Serious Sam:

Johnny gets his own single-minded way at the end, and we're supposed to applaud, even though it involves a complete or partial erasure of his wife. (And this didn't even seem consistent with Johnny's character as the game had earlier portrayed him. In the "old" timeline, he is a frustrated but devoted husband who loves River for who she is and tries to accommodate her condition. It made no sense that he would want to erase her, in whole or in part)

We have no way of knowing what Johnny would have wanted at all. Removing River was Eva's idea, it had nothing to do with Johnny. In fact, I think it highly likely that if they had the opportunity to talk to Johnny he would have been opposed to her removal.

Originally posted by Not-So-Serious Sam:

Originally posted by O Trovador:

The only reason Johnny wanted to go to the moon was to feel complete again by having River by his side again. That's why this desire showed up after River's dead.

That makes a bit more sense to me. I guess the part that's not sitting right with me is that, in the "new" timeline, he's not sitting next to River in that rocketship. He's sitting next to some version of River that has been stripped of major parts of her personaltiy, including her condition. That doesn't seem like a loving vision to me.

To you it's not the same River, but Johnny has no memory of the previous life. To him he lived a happy life with River into old age with a brother who never died. If he was aware of his previous life I would agree with what you said, but he's not.

You could argue that it's disrespectful to the real River's memory to essentially erase her from his mind before he dies and to be honest I'm not sure Johnny (or myself) would disagree with that. Johnny unfortunately isn't given the choice.

[Reives]

I'm a bit confused about the assumption that River's condition was gone in the "new life". The only visible difference was that she got into NASA, with behaviour (e.g. lack of eye-contact) still intact. That assumption itself almost seems to assume that one cannot theoretically have the condition and be successful or happy.

That being said, that entire part of the story takes place in Johnny's mind after all, and the way it folded was a result of Johnny believing in River fulfilling her part of the promise and also having the ability to do so.

As for the story from River's perspective: No, it was never really a happily ever after.

[Ali]

It was never about the moon in the first place. It was about finding River again. The reason they had to rewrite everything is because they had to completely remove River from Johnny's life while finding a meaningful device to inspire him to literally go to the moon.

As long as River was around, Johnny wouldn't feel the desire to go to the moon; the only reason he wants to go to the moon is because that was their plan as children to find each other if they ever got lost or forgot each other. Johnny's subconscious desire to go to the moon as an old man was based on his longing to find River again.

So, Eva knew that, if she left the memory of River intact in Johnny's mind, they would never be able to get their technology to work correctly, because that desire would never manifest until River died. So she replaced the memory of River with an artificial memory of Joey, and they grew up together, with Johnny developing a desire to be an astronaut and Joey cheering Johnny on. Only once Johnny reached NASA did Eva know that she could reunite them, and then they could go about being a couple again and go to the moon together.

So Johnny did not forget River or sacrifice the memory of their relationship for his own selfish desire to go to the moon, because it was never about the moon. It had everything to do with his desire to be reunited with River after she died, and he just didn't remember the plan they made as young children to reunite on the moon, even though it was his subconscious desire.

[your.sheepy]

The word "Romantic" have many meanings, just like "Love" has many meanings.

Well, romantic may indeed means "living in a fantasy world", and not necessary in a positive way. (e.g. "She is too romantic to face the reality".) The ending is sad, if not a tragedy, but it can still be described as romantic exactly because it is a fantasy, a dream. It can also be regarded as romantic because Eve made the happily ever after ending possible with all her love.

As for "replace (her) with an idealized version", Reives [the developer] has made it clear that is not the case. Note that John does know that early diagnostic and treatment/training can help a patient to pretend to be normal, so that can be what happened in the ending sequence.
Of course, This just shifts the "idealised" burden from Eve to River (just ask Isabelle), and this may be even less romantic than replacing her.

Alternatively, John may not have forgotten her in the second run (since he didn't take the beta blockers), and thus she does not need to be obsessed with those origami rabbits. So, all Eve did was to (1) resurrect Jonny and (2) split River and John so that John wants to go to the moon. There is no replacement. River is still River.

If you feel like you don't know River much "because she barely speaks", I guess you are experiencing John's frustration first-hand. Much can be deduced or observed, for example we know that she is *very* devastated by the truth John told her, despite what John said. Yes I would have tried to jump off the cliff too. More preferable to folding rabbits the rest of my life. She is obsessed because she loves John, it is more than "just a symptom".

I won't go into the details, but if you want to understand River, you need to really observe her and read between her actions and words, from her point of view. A nice reason to replay the game. The memories are good enough for this purpose. Don't confuse biased view with unreliable narrator.

[Marquise*]

Romantic in theater meant that you could join comedy to drama. Also, that wish to go to the Moon he never remembered it was because of River.

[Malagon]

Originally posted by Alistair:

It was never about the moon in the first place. It was about finding River again. The reason they had to rewrite everything is because they had to completely remove River from Johnny's life while finding a meaningful device to inspire him to literally go to the moon.

As long as River was around, Johnny wouldn't feel the desire to go to the moon; the only reason he wants to go to the moon is because that was their plan as children to find each other if they ever got lost or forgot each other. Johnny's subconscious desire to go to the moon as an old man was based on his longing to find River again.

So, Eva knew that, if she left the memory of River intact in Johnny's mind, they would never be able to get their technology to work correctly, because that desire would never manifest until River died. So she replaced the memory of River with an artificial memory of Joey, and they grew up together, with Johnny developing a desire to be an astronaut and Joey cheering Johnny on. Only once Johnny reached NASA did Eva know that she could reunite them, and then they could go about being a couple again and go to the moon together.

So Johnny did not forget River or sacrifice the memory of their relationship for his own selfish desire to go to the moon, because it was never about the moon. It had everything to do with his desire to be reunited with River after she died, and he just didn't remember the plan they made as young children to reunite on the moon, even though it was his subconscious desire.

+1