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http://pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/#q5
No, in fact, that's the base of every RPG ever.
Following the flow of the conversation and it was about Everquest 2 at that point.
Is there a release date yet or are we looking at 2018?
The reason people wanted the warrior over everything else was because they had the evasive discipline which meant they could tank the harder raid mobs in the game. Simple minded players took this as meaning that the warrior was the best tank, so they wouldn't make groups and go to dungeons if the group didn't have a warrior. Secondly was the Cleric, they had the best heals by far, but they were also the only healing class that could rez (which was a stupid decision), so again groups wouldn't want to go anywhere without the Cleric. Even after expansions came along, some other classes were given rezzes but the Cleric was still the best healer by far.
And lastly the Enchanter. They became the third part of the trinity because they were just so powerful. They had one spell that gave everyone in the group much faster mana regen which was a big deal, and although some other classes had that, the Ench also had the best crowd control spells in the game. They could mez an entire room full of mobs, and single target mez, and had chain stuns, root, etc. They even had powerful haste spells and other buffs like rune which made pulling a lot safer.
The reason that all this was a problem is that Pallys and SKs started having a harder time finding a group because they weren't the preferred tank. Shaman did ok because although they had no rez and weaker healing, at least they had the most powerful slow and they had very good and unique buffs. Druid was a weak healer but had some useful buffs, could do decent damage, but they had an evacuate which made them desirable. Wizard was the same. But Necros got left out in the cold. Groups often didn't want them because they had no rez, no evac, no real heals, buffs, etc. Yet when a group would wipe in a dungeon after rejecting the Necro, they would often come crawling to Necros to ask them to summon all their corpses... Some other classes got left out too. The holy trinity was bad.
p.s. That said, Brad's next game, Vanguard, did a much better job with this problem, although didn't fix it completely. That game still has the best classes I've ever seen in an MMO though.
First off, EQ didn't use a "Holy Trinity" it used a Quintet... Tank, Healer, CC, Puller, DPS (everyone always forgets how important the Puller was back then)
Healer:
Shaman helped EMENSLY with CC because of the crazy slow they had. Alot of groups could even forgo CC altogether with a shaman because there was no need to CC when you only had to break packs of 3-4 (depending on the camp of corse) with their slow, not to mention they also had a good version of haste for the melee (not as strong as enchants but haste is haste), and the strongest version of str and dex buffs. Shaman could fill position for both healer and CC in some groups/camps, they offered more dps than clerics, great party DPS buffs, and who needs to CC something when it's been slowed 70%... don't forget Spirit of the wolf for travel time, a HUGE deal before EQ introduced mounts (and for some time after as mounts were very expensive for majority of player popultations when they were introduced, though my server launched with Kunark so it was a year younger and had less currency in circulation than others).
Druids and Wizards (pre Planes of Power, though the declined need for ports started as early as Luclin) were always needed depending on where you were farming xp (camping), as some locals were very far out of the way and were best reached by wizard spires, or druid rings (stonehenges), if you were doing a zone that was often camped heavily (like Seb during Kunark era) a group might just grab a Druid for heals because if you failed as a group and had a death you could corpse drag the dead body to a nearby camp for that groups cleric to res you, which was no big deal because closed comunities back then everyone knew each other (don't forget to tip your cleric!, we loved peridots). Druids had great dots, damage shields, some stat buff spells, and on top of porting to the camp your group intends to farm in the first place they could cast Spirit of the Wolf to increase movement speed.
Clerics offered the most mana effient heal in game... complete heal (10 second cast time, healed 7500hp (though if i recall 7500 was what it became a few epxansions in due to a rework to the spell because of increasing player health pools)). We also bosted the strongest protective buffs (HP and AC buffs: Symbols, shields of soandso, and the big daddy Aegolism (kunark era, Ancient Aegolism if you were a raid cleric in velious). At some point in Kunark they introduced heal over time spells to clerics, they were more mana efficient than our shorter cast time spells like Divine Light but didn't hold a candle to CH (though oddly was named celestial healing... CH...). So yes we were best pure healers, and if you somehow had a death or a wipe in your party while gruoped with a cleric they had the best resurection spells (offering 96-98% experience returned from the death penalty, don't recall when they added the 98% spell but cleric epic had 96% clicky res). What we didn't offer was good dps potential... yes we had some horrifyingly mana ineffient Direct Damage (DD) nukes, and slightly less mana ineffient DD nukes vs undead, but they paled in comparison to any other classes dps potential. I also remember mastering schools of magic being a limited thing, meaning Alteration, Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, and Evocation were all capped at 200. I'm not sure if it was just 1 or 2 you could master but when you mastered a school of magic that ment it would cap at 250 (thereby reducing chance of fizzled spells, and increase chance to reduce the casting cost of the spell a HUGE deal when it took 15 min of real time meditation to regen a full mana bar (depending on gear, as mana regen items didn't come until luclin but +mana pool items were around since launch)... Anway heals were Alteration, buffs were Abjuration, and ANY cleric in his right mind would know those 2 got mastered first. Conjuration and Divination weren't used much for clerics. Clerics offered great surviability sure, but offered less DPS than any other class (even vs undead we were still outclassed by what a druid or shaman offered when you factored in the type of party buffs they offered to increase dps).
Tanks:
Not sure what kind of bubble you lived in, but as a cleric healer, i never had any problem whatsoever with a pally or shadow knight tank, they held good agro... but then as a cleric that's all i cared about, if the tank held more agro than i generated healing them, i was happy, end of story. Though i will say i prefered Shadow Knights over Pallys for the simple reason as Pally's offered nothing extra to the party (unless we were fighting undead, post Luclin AA points) because pally's buffs were all lower leveled cleric buffs that didn't stack with mine, though some expansions in they did get some buff that did.
Crowd control:
You must have never met a good bard... cause the truly great bards were Gods of CC, dps buffs, mana regen, haste, travel speed, you name it. I still remember going into Dragon Necropolis in Velious with some guildies and no enchanter / shaman and having a bad patrol plus a link death near wipe us in some ratonga area (this was before they changed the cleric epic bottleneck cause i was still on a year and a half waiting list to get one back then)... most of the party wiped. was me and the bard left standing (thank god for Divine Protection, and Divine Barrier) when he changes gears and starts mezing everything while i meditated enough mana to get Res's off. The tank comes back online and pulls off one of the mezzed ratonga freeing up the bard to twist in some mana regen for me while keeping the other Rats mezzed and still sneaking in a few swings on the tanked ratman. While we slowly (and i mean slowly, like over coarse of half an hour or better) regain a handle on the situation dealing with more pats as i get enough mana to bring my fallen party members back into the fray while keeping tank alive and making sure i also regain enough mana reserves in case ♥♥♥♥ hits the fan again there's this super bard holding back the masses of Ratonga looking to have us for dinner. I NEVER questioned having a bard handle CC after that night again (though i will admit... bards of his skill were few and far between, as they required the clicking speed of a korean starcraft player to twist songs like that (which means changing which music instrament you had equiped for each tick of the song which you had to change like casting a spell), not to mention remembering what order to refresh their short duration mez on multiple rats, and changing positions when they'd break free for a tick because of a resist).
For some groups a Shaman could also suffice for CC especially if already grouped with a Cleric or Druid. When a Shaman didn't have to fill as primary healer they'd be free to make sure a Mob was slowed the second it was pulled into camp, they'd also have the carefree attitude that now that super pissed off mob with 70% or so slow was no serious threat when they had a healer that was bored cause the tank was bearly taking any damage and could easily heal them too. Though their haste spells weren't as strong as the chanter, they did have the best str and dex buffs for melee to go along with them.
Enchanters of corse were great, they had area mez for emergencies. Single target mezes for keeping something on lock down for longer, memory wipes to make sure the mob wasn't still agroed at them when the tank got around to pulling that mob. They also offered mana regen buffs for casters like breeze, clarity, and eventually Koadic's Endless Intelect (which was nice in that it was finally a 2 hour long buff, but also ment that groups no longer needed a chanter on hand to keep mana regen buffs active as 2 hours is a good amount of time to stay at the same camp deep in seb or some similar area before needing to take a break or to go vendor loot or what have you. Then there was the magic resistance debuff Tash they could place on mobs to make them less resistant to magic (arcane class) style attacks. They offered the best in Haste spells (and clicky haste on their epic snake staff if they had the ability to do their epic quest chain, which had it's own bottleneck for a long period of time) for the melee. Enchanters often required a healer who was fast on their clicks (for that era in gaming), as they had high mortality rates, mezzing bad pulls was dangerous buisness as they were high agro spells and their HP shields sometimes betrayed how much damage they were actually taking to a distracted healer.
anicdote about the death of an enchanter...
Say 2 of the 3 mobs resist the short duration area mess on a pull, cleric doesn't know this cause the puller neglected to say how many he was bringing (or thought he had 2, not 3) and enchanter's health doesn't drop yet, but health shield only has 10hp worth of absorption left, cleric can't see how much health is left in the chanter's damage absorption spell and assumes she's single mesing 1 of 2 mobs, cleric only thinks one mob is beating on them and desides to continue casting his 10 second complete heal (that's already 5 seconds mid cast) on the tank who's at 50% health, suddenly the chanter's at 30% health, healer's complete heal has 2 seconds left, tank is at 30% health but is about to pull agro on 2 fresh mobs (that's gona be 3 once that short durration area mez wears off) none of whom have any debuffs cast on them at all yet. Cleric desides to let chanter die and finish casting his CH on the tank, otherwize he will likely die from flood healing chanter and tank with faster casting light heals (which would result in end of camp due to party needing to port out without the ability to res the cleric... though the rogue stays behind to drag clerics body to zone in for him first, least he could do after all). Cleric ends up blowing 90% of his mana pool keeping party alive due to mobs having no CC or debuffs. Cleric begins meditating for enough mana to res chanter, mob respawns in room, cleric needs to cast CH on tank, fizzle... cleric needs to meditate 2 more min... chanter waits total of 10 min for res (due to duration of initial fight, and respawns happening one at a time in camp (as they are already spaced out from breaking the camp). Chanter misses out on 10 mobs worth of xp, losses 4% of the xp death penalty (96% xp res). Pulls are slowed for next 20 min while chanter and cleric regain a mana reserve for emergency situations. Party as whole losses about 10 min worth of "in the zone" xp/hour time, but chanter losses 20 min worth due to time being dead.
Same situation with druid healer... chanter hits 30% health, druid evacs... party back at zone in, party is alive, druid heals chanter and party works it's way back to it's camp earning xp along the way...
Same situation with shaman as CC... shaman single casts slow on one of 3 mobs and pulls agro on it, spell is not resisted as it's not magic resist check (it's poison or disease i forget which). Tank's main mob has 70% shaman slow (as opposed to chanter's lesser version of slow) and tank is at 70% health not 50%, cleric is not mid cast CH as tank isn't in need yet, cleric is free to cast a HoT on shaman (who wears chain armor, not cloth like chanter)... Tank picks up 2 of the 3 mobs + mob that's been on him (who's shaman slowed). Shaman slows one of 2 mobs on tank that arent' slowed (but tank holds agro on him now so he stays on tank), cleric casts Divine light on tank (strong quick heal that's higher mana cost) followed by a HoT and pulls agro from 3rd unslowed mob. Tank rushes to mob on cleric, shaman begins casting slow on 3rd mob, cleric casts Divine Protection (10 second imunity) Mob snaps back tank while tank builds agro on Mob. Cleric waits for 10 second barrier to drop while tank is healed by HoT, Rogue pulls agro due to low agro on the DPS target, rogue is in chain armor and can take a few hits from a shaman slowed mob (though he can't backstab till tank regains agro, begins trying to evade to lessen her agro). Necro (who doesn't need chanter buff due to life tapping and lich form) has been loading up dots on all mobs and fiegning death this whole time while his pet beats on dps target. With no mezzes to break wizard lays down some AE damage spells once tank has good agro, they are more mana efficient so wizard makes due without mana regen buff. Party makes short work of bad pull and had fun doing so. Cleric has 60% mana remaining and asks why haven't we pulled yet, party laughes and stays another 2 hours.
Puller:
There's also the fact that EQ didn't use a Holy Trinity... it used a Quintet... Tank, Healer, DPS, CC, and Puller (everyone always forgets how important a puller was in EQ.
Monks more than any other were the go too's of Pullers, though Shadow Knights could also Feign Death, and Rogues were good at scouting a room to know exactly when to pull so that roamer wouldn't chain the whole room as well. Technically Necros could feign death as well but as a clothy they were a little too squishy to deal with a failed feign death. The point of the Puller was to make sure you weren't bringing a train back to camp when you started your next pull and also to make sure the party was alawys killing something. The majority of the time the puller would peel off the tanked mob in the camp early to set up the next pull, name of the game was keep party supplied with mobs to kill, but don't overload the CCer. You have to remember, EQ was all about the eternal grind so you wanted to max your xp/hour, i've yet to ever see a game that required as much play time to "max" level as EQ (and when Luclin came out with the Alternate Advancement leveling system, it became a near eternal grind as they always had enough AA's to keep you grinding away). Even in the top most raid guild i only recall one player that i knew had maxxed out his AA count during an expansion back then (my server was launched for Kunark expansion as a fresh server so the population was a year yonger than the main servers to begin with, also less time to farm when you raid 6 nights a week).
DPS
Wizard>rogue>blah blah... DPS were usually chosen based on ulitiy, buff stacking, who was LFG in zone, or travel time to reach party's camp if established party was looking for replacement. Shaman and Druids could qualify as a DPS party member due to party buffage and utility depending on the group make up... no group EVER brought a cleric to be a dps... not even in pure undead camps.
The point of this word wall... EQ was extreamly complex with 14 classes and 10 races at launch (some trip-A MMORPG's don't even launch with half that number, and even WoW after 6 expansions has only 10 classes). It boasted a far more complex group mechanic than any MMO to come after... in EQ's hayday (which i consider to have peeked during Velious through Planes of Power era) a party would NEVER form a group and only consern themselves with the "Holy Trinity"... classes could fill multiple rolls, and where you were going to farm xp mattered as well... some camps were harder to break (tougher packs to pull) and required a larger focus on CC, other camps were a little more laid back and didn't even require a full group. Some groups were formed souly around fear kiting or snare/SoW kiting, later groups would pioneer area pulling (pulling large grousp of mobs and keeping them chain stunned at the camp spot, then burning down 50+ mobs at once, fun and great xp but super dangerous as long time investment to set up and 1 slip releases every mob).
EQ didnt' "rely" on the holy trininity... it was so much more than that.
You can't change history. The holy trinity in EQ was exactly what I described, not what you said.
never once in EQ did i type the phrase "can't form a group, no enchanters LFG"
did i like having one in group? sure, i got to nuke more often when we had one (or got to have real haste when i was meleeing after the implementation of "Hand of the God's" proc hammers and similar items, which was great cause me and another cleric in my guild immediatly ran out and duo'd Gore in DL by beating it to death with our proc hammers after raid the night that went in, had to do it quick too before a full group of wizards showed up and insta killed him with 6 mana burns)
did i feel the group was missing out on xp per hour without one? nope, there were LOTS of viable strategies in EQ back then.
also incorrect as Defensive was the go to ability for warriors. Evasive was only prefered over defensive when the mob had significanly dangerous procs. The reson? spikes to incoming damage, a hard hitting mob could still land a number of full damage blows in a row on ocasion, which was dangerous when complete heal had a 10 second cast time. Also poping evasive caused the tank to generate less threat, as he'd miss more often (instead of hitting for less damage while defensive was up, hitting mob for less over coarse of 3 min always generates more threat than hitting less often over 3 min because you need to hit for weapons to proc... not to mention the danger of having a string of misses right before the rogue backstabs = dead rogue if a mob is dangerous enough to merit poping a discipline)
are you like basing all your "knowledge" on p1999 or something?.... you know that player base is pretty bad compaired to the people that actually played EQ religiously in the old days don't you?
Next thing you're goan say is that a Troll warrior is equal to or better than an Ogre warrior ROFL.