how on earth killing weepers increase chaos?

[JolyJew СлаваУкраине]

i was killing weepers all the time untill i read in the dishonred wiki it increases chaos.

how???

they are poor mentally broken people slowly dying in horribly agony from a hideious desease. how on earh putting thm out of their misery increases chaos?

it doesn't attracts rats either since the game clearly stated that they do not eat corpses that are too infected.

please explain

[celica soupra]

You're gonna need some cold water on that, RageMojo.

[DaveJK]

İlk olarak RageMojo tarafından gönderildi:

Rabies is not fatal, good god pick up a book.

Lmfao. I don't even think they have a word in the dictionary that describes this guy...

[False Dmitry II]

İlk olarak The Legendary Beast tarafından gönderildi:

The point is, there's no reason to kill them. They get cured by Sokolov and Pierro in the good ending.

No matter how you present it it's wrong to kill sick people in cold blood when they can be cured.

There is absolutely no way to know that it will become curable. That is what happens, but the only way Corvo would know that is time travel. Otherwise killing them and then setting all the bodies on fire can only result in less plauge.

For a year at least, the plauge simply spread and created more zombies.

Similar to killing all visible rats and setting those on fire.

[Tomberry Blue]

İlk olarak False Dmitry II tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak The Legendary Beast tarafından gönderildi:

The point is, there's no reason to kill them. They get cured by Sokolov and Pierro in the good ending.

No matter how you present it it's wrong to kill sick people in cold blood when they can be cured.

There is absolutely no way to know that it will become curable. That is what happens, but the only way Corvo would know that is time travel. Otherwise killing them and then setting all the bodies on fire can only result in less plauge.

For a year at least, the plauge simply spread and created more zombies.

Similar to killing all visible rats and setting those on fire.

I admit I'm not into Corvo's head (much) but why would he assume a cure can't be found? That just seems like a backwards way to look at things...

Besides the bodies are not burned, they're left in pits to rot for the most part. I mean, you can always destroy the body entirely with your magic but you're not "burning" nearly enough weepers to even remotely slow down the plague in any way by yourself.

[celica soupra]

You can't really blame the guy for being a little pessimistic, after all that's happened to him. It works out, because a low chaos Corvo would spare them (perhaps because he believes there is a cure) and they do get cured in the end, however a high chaos Corvo might not care about a cure and will just kill them anyway.

[Sandwiches!!!]

So from what I've learned in this thread, Weepers = Rabies victims who have started to show symptom.

Exactly why is killing them a bad thing? They're doomed and are suffering needlessly. With the shadow kill upgrade you instantly clear up existing Weeper population and reducing the chance of them infecting others.

The health potion only works if you didn't become infected (just like Rabies vaccine). The Weepers are mindless zombies that puke disease. Exactly how do you even round them up to administer this magical cure?

This game makes zero sense! Emily should have been eaten by rats! Or Weepers! Or rats that are riding on Weepers!

[celica soupra]

No, they have nothing to do with rabies. Someone just used rabies as an example.

You're still killing people, and the game sees that as a high chaos thing. Not every Corvo uses shadow kill, but I guess that could slow the plague from spreading.

Um, the remaining weepers in low chaos do get cured by a new medicine. Sedate them to round them up, simple as that.

It does make sense. In high chaos weepers die either by Corvo's hand or simply to the plague and a cure is never found, whereas in low chaos those who don't die because of the plague are cured by Piero and Sokolov.
..Why should Emily have been eaten by rats?

[SunDead]

IMO i would put weepers out of their misery,they are going to die and they are a danger to the noninfected

[MikePlaysIt]

İlk olarak Jolly Jew tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak 64GIGS.exe tarafından gönderildi:

Dead bodies rot, attract rats and spread disease, hence creating more weepers, decreasing the population and spreading the plague faster.
Basically, it kills more people.

that would make perfect sence if the game didn't clealry state that rats do not eat weeper corpses because they are infected with the plauge

Actually, rats absolutely do eat weepers corpses. It was changed in an update... Back when I first started playing, rats wouldn't touch weepers or their corpses, now they are fair game..

Also, why would rats not eat weeper corpses simply because they are infected with the plague? That's the whole idea being a plague baring rat, that it can carry the disease and not be effected by it. You're not going to have little rat weepers running around (though that would be hilarious). Rats are simply trasmitters of the disease and are not effected by it, which is partially why I think they changed it in an update because they realized that it didn't make much sense.

*EDIT* I also have video of weeper corpses being consumed by rats. If anyone wants to see.

[Scaredog20]

The rats will feed on the corpses, the plague should leave the dead weeper and allow them to be edible after a period of time so the rats can prosper off the corpses, while the rats can't eat weepers that are alive to do the high plague saturation.
The finest minde of the series obtain a cure for the plague

[MikePlaysIt]

İlk olarak Scaredog20 tarafından gönderildi:

The rats will feed on the corpses, the plague should leave the dead weeper and allow them to be edible after a period of time so the rats can prosper off the corpses, while the rats can't eat weepers that are alive to do the high plague saturation.
The finest minde of the series obtain a cure for the plague

I can't remember personally seeing rats swarming and killing a weeper, though one time there was a weeper in an area where there were rats, I left, came back, and saw a half eaten corpse on the ground, rats gone. So maybe it is in the game, where rats have basic AI when it comes to weepers and if they are in a big enough swarm and are hungry enough they will attack, but then might die after? But then like I said that doesn't make sense because rats are carriers, and aren't meant to be affected by the plague.

But I have seen rats devour a weeper corpse that had been killed seconds before.

[Medaci]

Killing is killing. It doesn't matter what disease someone has, if you kill them WITHOUT their permission then it's a crime.

[MikePlaysIt]

And actually. I really don't think that weepers go hostile against any other NPCs in the game. Only Corvo, maybe because of his mask and the wanted posters. Who knows. But it's just weird how a lady you rescue from two crooked guards can walk away right past where a set of weepers would be and nothing would happen. Also, how Emily can leave the golden cat, and again, walk right past weepers (I know she doesn't actually walk past them, she's likely TP'd to the boat, but still) and not have an issue... Yeah guards will shoot at weepers when they see them, but that's on the guards. I'm going to say it, honestly, I don't think weepers are inherently hostile.... Just to Corvo.

[Turtler]

Ah. This conversation again. IIRC, myself and a few others brought up this very issue. Only more generally about how chaos works.

But to be honest, I don't think there is a terribly good way to explain this in-universe, though some might come close. And out of universe, it all hinges on Chaos as implemented in the game having pretty much nothing to do with the concept the devs pitched before they launched: namely as that of an amoral meter detecting how well Dunwall is holding together independent of morality. In game, it's just a straight up karma meter where any rational correlation is mostly a happy coincidence (even if they jury rig it to make it seem otherwise).

But to address some of the comparisons

@Jolly Jew @Yuri

Actually no, it wouldn't be a crime. Certainly not under most circumstances. Plague carriers were seen as an overarchig threat to absolutely everything historically and in game, which means that it was perfectly legal to strip them of rights, kill them on sight and en-masse, and generally do whatever you could to get rid of them. In fact, it was practically seen as a moral duty to the community.

The fact that the Empress refuses to enact that policy is downright revolutionary considering the society and aspects we see in most places. But she's also unable to control the plague and quickly gets overthrown by a totalitarian psychotic who throws that enlightened aproach out the window without many people complaining. The fact that even the Loyalists don't make a great fuss about the Weepers' rights says something.

Note: this in no way means it is necessarily *not* evil, much less good. If anything, there is plenty of reason to believe the otherwise. But that's a question of morality and ethics, not the law or pragmatism. And in terms of the latter, I don't think the Weepers would have much to look foreward to.

And in terms fo cause and effect, I don't see how killing off *a vector for a world-killing plague* would magically cause there to be more plague. Sure, if you dispose of the corpses badly or not at all that *might* be able to be justified. But you can just as easily incinerate them and the infected tissue/rat food either iwth your powers or a Wall of Light, and it has absolutely no difference.

This goes back to how the Cause-Effect of Chaos is really not ironed out very well or logical.

@MikePlaysIt

Very good points, and great eyes. I own the XBOX version so I don't remember seeing that, but I'd like ot see the video. Likewise, you raise a very good point about their behavior and hostility (or lack thereof).

However, the former has the problem that the game and Chaos don't give a fork about what happens to the bodies even if you deal with them in a way that wouldn't let the rats have it. And as for the latter, it's somewhat undermined by the things we have in the game, especially from The Heart. One of its' pad quotes when targeting an individual Weeper is noting that said Weeper is *still of its' own mind* and *Dedicated to spreading the plague as much as it can* before it goes down.

Likewise, one of the stock "female servant" quotes is noting that on her day off, she'll be mauled by Weepers and left for dead. Sure, it's a product of lazy programming, but to the extent we can take it seriously in-universe it shows that Weeper mauling is a significant occupational hazard and some Weepers are already far around the bend and want to make the world burn with them.

This in no way means that all Weepers are like that (if anything some other quotes we hear from the Heart indicate otherwise) or that your theory is wholly wrong (in fact, I find it very intriguing). Just that not all of them are so moral or sane even if it isn't represented well in gameplay.

[MikePlaysIt]

İlk olarak Turtler tarafından gönderildi:

Ah. This conversation again. IIRC, myself and a few others brought up this very issue. Only more generally about how chaos works.

But to be honest, I don't think there is a terribly good way to explain this in-universe, though some might come close. And out of universe, it all hinges on Chaos as implemented in the game having pretty much nothing to do with the concept the devs pitched before they launched: namely as that of an amoral meter detecting how well Dunwall is holding together independent of morality. In game, it's just a straight up karma meter where any rational correlation is mostly a happy coincidence (even if they jury rig it to make it seem otherwise).

But to address some of the comparisons

@Jolly Jew @Yuri

Actually no, it wouldn't be a crime. Certainly not under most circumstances. Plague carriers were seen as an overarchig threat to absolutely everything historically and in game, which means that it was perfectly legal to strip them of rights, kill them on sight and en-masse, and generally do whatever you could to get rid of them. In fact, it was practically seen as a moral duty to the community.

The fact that the Empress refuses to enact that policy is downright revolutionary considering the society and aspects we see in most places. But she's also unable to control the plague and quickly gets overthrown by a totalitarian psychotic who throws that enlightened aproach out the window without many people complaining. The fact that even the Loyalists don't make a great fuss about the Weepers' rights says something.

Note: this in no way means it is necessarily *not* evil, much less good. If anything, there is plenty of reason to believe the otherwise. But that's a question of morality and ethics, not the law or pragmatism. And in terms of the latter, I don't think the Weepers would have much to look foreward to.

And in terms fo cause and effect, I don't see how killing off *a vector for a world-killing plague* would magically cause there to be more plague. Sure, if you dispose of the corpses badly or not at all that *might* be able to be justified. But you can just as easily incinerate them and the infected tissue/rat food either iwth your powers or a Wall of Light, and it has absolutely no difference.

This goes back to how the Cause-Effect of Chaos is really not ironed out very well or logical.

@MikePlaysIt

Very good points, and great eyes. I own the XBOX version so I don't remember seeing that, but I'd like ot see the video. Likewise, you raise a very good point about their behavior and hostility (or lack thereof).

However, the former has the problem that the game and Chaos don't give a fork about what happens to the bodies even if you deal with them in a way that wouldn't let the rats have it. And as for the latter, it's somewhat undermined by the things we have in the game, especially from The Heart. One of its' pad quotes when targeting an individual Weeper is noting that said Weeper is *still of its' own mind* and *Dedicated to spreading the plague as much as it can* before it goes down.

Likewise, one of the stock "female servant" quotes is noting that on her day off, she'll be mauled by Weepers and left for dead. Sure, it's a product of lazy programming, but to the extent we can take it seriously in-universe it shows that Weeper mauling is a significant occupational hazard and some Weepers are already far around the bend and want to make the world burn with them.

This in no way means that all Weepers are like that (if anything some other quotes we hear from the Heart indicate otherwise) or that your theory is wholly wrong (in fact, I find it very intriguing). Just that not all of them are so moral or sane even if it isn't represented well in gameplay.

Excellent points! About the video, did you mean about the rats consuming weepers and weeper corpses, or the weepers hostility toward other NPCs? I think I remember saying I have video for each, though, for the weepers hostility toward other NPCs, it's nothing that everyone else can't see, and they've likely seen it just not paid it any mind. For example, Emily going out of the VIP exit, past Granny Rags and by a point which would bring her right by the weepers. But, as you said, it could likely just be due to lazy programming and them not consiering that the exit would bring a 10 year old girl right past "violent?" weepers. Same as the women walking away after thanking you for saving her from the two crooked cops in that side alley, she walks right down that same alley with the weepers, though again, it could just be bad programming...

I think that the best evidence that the weepers can be civil is from a scene you see in the end game scenario after finishing in Low Chaos.. You see a bunch of weepers lined up in an orderly manner, calm as can be, waiting to be treated.

Maybe weepers minds truly aren't "gone", but just as there are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ people that exist in the world, there are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ weepers? lol

Now if you're talking about the rats consuming weepers and weeper corpses, I can provide that no problem. That can be a little more pain staking to see on your own. Especially seeing rats actually attacking live weepers.