Clean Hands achievement out of reach for me

[Anonymous2013]

Each time I play or replay a mission I avoid killing people for the sake of this achievement. But if I witness someone getting swarmed by rats, NPC's fighting other NPC's and killing eachother for some reason it counts as kills for me although I didn't do anything to provoke them or cause that event I only witnessed it.
Is there a way to avoid this, because for example in the sewers after you escape Coldridge Prison there are two guards that get swarmed by rats and eaten by them, probably unavoidable events. That counted as two kills for me even though I was walking past them. I replayed that part and moved as fast as I could, even tried to distract them to prevent them from opening the door but it didn't help and they still died to the rats and I still ended up with two kills.

[rod66]

That is a completely scripted event and does not count against you there is no way to avoid their death. More likely the 2 kills are the last 2 guards in the prison, where are you putting them before you set off the bomb?

[Zekiran]

Yeah you have to basically be really careful about explosions, and letting unconscious enemies fall down stairs, off rooftops, and into water. The scripted ones, you cannot save and aren't counted because you didn't really have anything to do with them dying.

[Eternie]

There is sound that plays when someone you kill dies or you get spotted. As mentioned above where the 2 guards are as you exit the prison and blow the door. Is most likely where your deaths are.
A vid that shows this quite well https://youtu.be/FpOqIPIBB54 by prenatual

[Anonymous2013]

I knocked them out and left them down stairs near the locked gate that lets you into the prison. Out of the bomb's reach. I rarely leave a body hanging somewhere where it could glitch off the edge or die randomly.

[rod66]

Originally posted by Anonymous2013:

I knocked them out and left them down stairs near the locked gate that lets you into the prison. Out of the bomb's reach. I rarely leave a body hanging somewhere where it could glitch off the edge or die randomly.

OK, As it is hard (though not impossible) to inadvertently kill people in the prison (except for those last two) the remaining killables are in the sewers. Are you letting them fall into the water? As essentially no one in Dishonored can swim except Corvo & Daud that could also be your problem and unconscious people can drown in very shallow water (they don't always need to have their head underwater).

There are more ways that people can inadvertently die (I have even had them die on being dropped one too many times). The best policy is to make sure they show as unconscious before you leave and that they aren't in a position to slowly fall (like down stairs).

Naturally occurring rats and scripted events (like the rats eating the 2 guards in M1 and the 2 overseers killing their brother in the back yard in M2) do not count. the scripted events are usually uninterruptible (like in M1) but if you can intervene (which you can do in M2) then any deaths are charged to you but if you don't then you are blameless. Another thing to watch out for are cutscenes that trigger when you have a body over your shoulder, this can cause you to throw the person to the ground and kill them. Also (you likely know this already and it doesn't apply to M1) weepers count as humans (they are NOT zombies even if they look and act like them).

[Anonymous2013]

I don't know. Might be a rare bug or something because I was able to kill some people with sleep darts. Yes, that's right. I killed people with non-lethal weapons, or choked them. Sometimes when I darted someone they fell over in their usual (mostly funny) manner but then blood just pools around their bodies as soon as they hit the ground. It could be because I aimed at the neck or head (shooter game reflexes) but I doubt that. The same thing with choking, they fall over then sometimes blood just pools around them.
I know that if the unconcious person you carry if you drop them from a certain hight they die, or if their heads hit a glass bottle or anything breakable (usually fragile) they also die. I'm guessing they fall on their swords and litteraly stab themselves after falling unconcious but in most cases their weapons just fall away from their bodies and not under them when the blood pool shows.

[Zekiran]

Yeah, sometimes that happens to me too. It think they may just have that minute percent of possibility of taking damage enough that it kills them.

[Eternie]

Thing is if you replay a mission to get clean hands and your going the same way ... your bound to make the same mistake again. To get clean hands try not choking or knocking out anyone ... and definately go different ways everywhere possible.

[Anonymous2013]

Well I just figgured it out. It's a possible means to punish the player that takes knocking out targets to the extreeme. In playthroughs where I avoided most of the guards and knocked out only a handfull of them and properly hiding their unconcious bodies there were no problems. However. Knocking out cold too many guards resulted in one or two (at the most) of the unconcious guards dying for no reasons.
For example, a guard that was unconcious that I hid in a trash bin was dead 10 in game minutes later when I checked the bodies to confirm my theory. In that test I took out, by my last count, about 20 guards, unconcious all of them, and it resulted in a random guard dying for no reason. So I consider it something purposefuly installed in the game to punish a player if he/she takes knocking out too far.

[rod66]

Originally posted by Anonymous2013:

Well I just figgured it out. It's a possible means to punish the player that takes knocking out targets to the extreeme. In playthroughs where I avoided most of the guards and knocked out only a handfull of them and properly hiding their unconcious bodies there were no problems. However. Knocking out cold too many guards resulted in one or two (at the most) of the unconcious guards dying for no reasons.
For example, a guard that was unconcious that I hid in a trash bin was dead 10 in game minutes later when I checked the bodies to confirm my theory. In that test I took out, by my last count, about 20 guards, unconcious all of them, and it resulted in a random guard dying for no reason. So I consider it something purposefuly installed in the game to punish a player if he/she takes knocking out too far.

Regarding killing folk with sleep darts I have encountered a bug where the last SD in your quiver acts as an incendiary bolt in rare circumstances (and yes I came into the situation with 2 SDs and 6 incendiaries and left with 0 SDs and 6 incendiaries) .

Regarding your idea of random kills being installed in the game to punish you this would make no sense, I know it sometimes feels that way but speaking as someone who regularly knocks out large numbers of people in-game and got clean hands doing it, it is not the case. However if you knock out EVERYONE you do get more and more chance to have an unlucky hiding spot and an inadvertent death.

[cyberwiz97]

Originally posted by Anonymous2013:

In that test I took out, by my last count, about 20 guards, unconcious all of them, and it resulted in a random guard dying for no reason. So I consider it something purposefuly installed in the game to punish a player if he/she takes knocking out too far.

I'm sorry to disagree but, my tests result are in conflict with yours. I've played several times where I've knocked out every possible hostile and have never had a "random guard dying for no reason." In cases where there WAS a death, I was always able to determine a reasonable explanation for it. As far as I can tell, there are no hidden deaths that count against you, although there are several ways a hostile can unintentionally die, that will be charged as a kill.

Still, I'd like to verify this again, if you can give an example of the situation where you experienced this. Like, where was it that you put the unconscious guard in a dumpster, who was dead ten minutes later? Which mission was that in? If you can recall what you did in more detail, I'd really appreciate it.

The way Dishonored's gameplay was designed, as well as after all my playthroughs and tests, I really don't think it intentionally punishes a player for excessive knockouts. Although, I will give you this ... the devs were quite clever and devious in some of the "traps" they set for us. But, those traps quickly became obvious, when sprung.

[PiNocPie]

Always save that's the key of this ach and if it's hard to pass ,maybe, watch youtuber they will give an advice.

[Anonymous2013]

Originally posted by From A Distance:

Always save that's the key of this ach and if it's hard to pass ,maybe, watch youtuber they will give an advice.

YouTube won't help me. I like to figure things out on my own rather than watch some guy do the exact thing I was about to do but with more dexterity. I got the achievement eventually after I avoided like 90% of the guards, abused my skill to stop time or possess rats or guards to get past obstacles. I did everything I could to avoid knocking out enemies just in case some minute bug decided to screw me over again.

Originally posted by cyberwiz97:

Still, I'd like to verify this again, if you can give an example of the situation where you experienced this. Like, where was it that you put the unconscious guard in a dumpster, who was dead ten minutes later? Which mission was that in? If you can recall what you did in more detail, I'd really appreciate it.

I can't be more specific or exact than what I just said. Guards died while in the trash dumpster. I even killed hostiles with Sleep Darts when they fell over and just died when they hit the ground or planked face forward on a wall or railing.
The dumpster was clean, nothing in it, no bricks or bottles they could hit their heads on and die when I threw them in. I left them there and 10 in game minutes later when I decided to check on them, one of the was dead, they were in the exact same position as I left them but the one on top was dead and no longer unconcious. I did this when I played as Daud in Brigmore Witches in Draper's Ward and the victims were two Hatters.