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If I'm playing against Vasari I'll have GRG (Gauss Rail Gun) and the Damage Reduction (it has phase missile block bonus) as the Vasari don't have many strikecraft and those they do have are too tough to be destroyed by Flak Burst.
Against Advent Flak Burst and GRG are my go to abilities as GRG provides good straight to hull damage (bypassing high Advent shields) and Flak Burst can be catastrophic to the lowly armoured but numerous Advent strikecraft.
Of course if/when you get to Lvl 6 and 8 get Finest Hour. It provides AM (Antimatter) regeneration among other bonuses.
I even got the Ion Bolt working for me (its duration is so low that I didn't notice it working before lol).
I won't say they are all good, but in general I don't think its that hard to figure out what kind of ship is what, at least for the TEC. Coblat "Light Frigate", Percharion "Carrier", Kodiak "Heavy Cruiser", all very generic unit names. Also, even if you don't know what counters what, Sins is pretty good at having units auto engage targets they do the most damage against.
Also FYI, Long Range Frigates like the Javelis do Anti-medium damage (meaning they counter Light frigates), not anti-heavy. Light Frigates like the Cobalt do Anti heavy, which is good against Flak and Support/Carrier cruisers.
Totally agree about not trusting info card damage values though. It also doesn't count the damage if a unit (Titans and Starbases in vanilla) can fire on multiple targets in one direction. You wouldn't know by the info cards, but the Coronata titan actually has the highest theoretical weapons damage, but since it can fire on multiple targets in all directions much of this is lost in the info card. The Ragnarov on the other hand looks good in the infocard because its main railgun does massive damage to one target.
I'll just say you're totally wrong on bombers. Face 100 squads of them like you used to have to do in online games and you realize just how powerful they are in large numbers.
The reason for the delayed "damage" on ships is that weapon effects in Sins are purely cosmetic. The game does not track each laser and missile and then does damage if they hit. You could remove all weapon particles from the game and balance wise nothing would change. Damage calculation occurs regardless of what the weapons look like they do.
Ion Bolt only lasts a few seconds at low levels. It is best used to stop abilities that last over time, like missile barrage or the Progenitor's shield restore, or to stop enemy capitalships from jumping to hyperspace so they can be destroyed. None of the Skirantra's abilities are overtime/interruptable so you should only really use it to keep it from escaping.
Also keep in mind abilities have a limited range, if the target is out of range it will have to move in to use it. Also, some abilities including Ion Bolt need to have the ship facing the target, so if your akkan isn't looking at the Skirantra head on, it will need to turn first before it can fire the ion bolt.
Early on carrier capitalships are very powerful. They don't take as much damage as other capitalships, but at the early stage in the game you don't have many antifighter units and a few squadrons stand out a lot more when you are only fighting a capitalship and a few frigates. They also all feature an ability to produce extra units/fighters (Missile Turret, Extra Squadrons, Spawn Bombers) that are very good early game but become less useful late game when large fleets make these extra units percentage wise less significant. The Advent and Vasari captialships however remain useful late game since they also have AoE buff/Healing abilities, giving them more utility in large fleets.
Not at all. Advent have been my favorite faction since the original game came out in 2008 (Advent Rebels now that they split).
I've found this page of the wiki to be quite useful too: http://sinsofasolarempire.wikia.com/wiki/Ship_Types
Its definitely worth a read for all newcomers.
I do like the TEC, mainly because they're the 'human' faction. But I think Vasari Loyalists might be my favourite now due to their mobile starbases. Its like having a Titan defending all your gravity wells!
Admittedly they'd only just finished taking out a starbase, but still... Those Devastators are so strong!
Long Range Frigates do tend to be good at killing capitalships, especially the Javelis as it can fight them out of range and is an efficient source of focused damage and Assaliants because they have phase missiles. However, their primary role is anti-light frigate. There is no particular unit that focuses on killing capitalships (it used to be bombers but they were nerfed at this somewhat); Light, Long Range frigates and heavy cruisers are all viable choices IMO.
While that page is good for knowing which ships are in which category, the wiki often gets some of the details wrong, especially if they have been changed in recent patches (I.e. corvettes have had their role adjusted several patches after Rebellion was released).
And its the Vasari Rebels that have the mobile Starbases.
Oh the Kortul is my favorite capitalship in the game, even though Advent are my favorite faction. It is probably the best tank in the game, thanks to power surge, and it can cripple titans with disruptive strikes. It is almost unrivialed in 1v1 combat, especially at high levels. However, its abilities have limited AoE effects, which means in large fleet battles it is much less notable (though it can still drain titan antimatter, so you'll always want one). Titans and and the Marza dreadnaught at level 6 are the only single ships that can withstand a large fleet of frigates thanks to their AoE damage abilities.
You can claim the "critical mass" factor of Strike Craft where you simply have so many that the balance shifts in your favor and the enemy cannot counter it - but then again, you can apply that logic to literally any unit. Early game, a "critical mass" of LRM Frigates along with your singular Capital Ship counters absolutely everything even until late-game. Even then, you're just adding a few extra different types of units to your LRM swarm.
10 Ogrovs will annihilate even a fully upgraded Starbase in 1 or 2 volleys.
10 Kodiaks will annihilate virtually anything in a straight fight, except for Titans or Starbases. They also soak up a lot of damage themselves, helping your fleet.
10-20 LRMs will deal significant damage to everything else and always be beneficial.
Strike Craft Carriers seem to be ~massively~ expensive for very little reward. The Bang : Buck ratio is terrible, in my opinion.
For instance, Strike Craft may be "effective" versus defensive Structures like Starbases because they cannot shoot back at the Strike Craft - but their damage is so pitiful that it is almost entirely pointless to even bother. In the amount of time you're sitting there waiting for the Strike Craft to take down the Deathstar, you could've just annihilated the thing in 10-20 seconds with roughly 10 anti-structure Cruisers, like Ogrovs.
Ogrovs in particular, along with the Advent and Vasari equivalents, are ridiculously effective against structures. Given that Fighters often screw around chasing other Strike Craft and Bombers auto-target the worst possible target at all times, I'd rather have my fleet composed of regular units to engage other units, and anti-structure Ogrovs to get rid of the rest.
Having to 'chase after' my Strike Craft constantly to order them to actually do something useful is just a hassle. I'd rather focus my battle time on managing my Capital Ships and what the rest of the fleet is doing, rather than expendable, free, useless cannon-fodder Fighters and Bombers.
- - -
Consider that a LRM Frigate does 10 damage and has 800 health (Combined Hull and Shields). It has huge range and is effective against almost every enemy target.
Consider that a Bomber does 1 damage and dies virtually instantly to any Flak, but cannot be hit by other standard weapons. There may be more Bombers in the Squadron (4-5) so the damage is more like 6.
However, when you invest time and money into +Missile damage, for a 10% increase, the difference to the LRM Frigate is significant, whilst to the Bombers, it is virtually nothing.
10 for the LRM Frigate becomes 11.
1 for the Bomber becomes 1.1
Whoopdedoo.
- - -
Doesnt help that the Advent are the "Strike Craft Focused" faction and I dont like them at all, even putting Strike Craft aside. Religious crackpots.
- - -
Someone said there are no direct anti Capital Ship ships. Heavy Cruisers do additional damage to Capital Ships. Things like the Kodiak, Enforcer and Crusader. But it really doesnt matter since early game you dont have access to these ships and by late game, you've got so much of everything else that in large battles every Capital Ship tends to die in 30 seconds due to focus-fire exchanges between both Fleets.
Just a tip. If anybody goes for the Vasari LRM Frigate - the Kanrak Assailant, you should never, ever, bother with the Area-of-Effect upgrade you can research for it. The ability does more harm to you than good.
Your Kanrak's will immobilize themselves at every opportunity when engaging targets with the ability on auto-cast and that will be their death sentence and / or it actually reduces their damage as they cannot chase or maneuver if the enemy moves around.
Also, If you have an entire fleet of Kanrak's firing at a single enemy Capital Ship, the Capital Ship will die before even a single light Frigate (like a Cobalt or Disciple) next to the Capital is destroyed by the Kanrak's Area-of-Effect damage.
Yeah, I meant mobile in the sense that they can move around in their gravity wells. You have to be much more strategic with your starbase placements when playing TEC or Advent, but the Vasari ones can move to intercept. Love it!
Can the Vasari Rebels jump a starbase into a hostile gravity well using the Phase Stabilizers, or do you have to colonize the planet first before you can do that?
I'm playing a Vasari Loyalist campaign right now and loving those Kortul Devastators :)
Yeah, I still haven't made up my mind about strike-craft (fighters & bombers) yet. On the whole I hate them because they clutter up the screen and seem to cause a lot of slowdown in battles on my PC. But then I suppose thats one of their strengths; to harass and confuse the enemy. Plus, most ships can't even hit them so they ain't arf pesky!
I also don't like the way they tend to wander about during battles, as they circle around for attacks, making them seem very unfocused and like they're on holiday. A large % of their time seems to be spent circling for another attack, so it makes me wonder how much of their time is actually spent firing and doing damage?
Plus, you do seem to need a lot of them to have a decent impact on a fight. Its not so bad if you're using capital Carrier ships, because they have other benefits besides the strike-craft. But Squadron Support Cruisers feel like a bit of a waste to me.
On the other hand:
1) Capital Carrier ships have certain abilities that make them very attractive regardless of the strike-craft. The Sova has Missile Batteries, the Skirantra has Repair Cloud/Replicate Forces, the Halcyon has Amplify Energy Aura. So I wouldn't want to miss out on those.
2) The AI is a strike-craft junkie. It just can't get enough of them. So you have to have something to counter them or they'll just hang around bothering you like wasps. In the case of fighters you can use Anti-Strikecraft Frigates, but bombers are mostly susceptible to fighters.
Its a shame the Kol Battleship's Flak Burst ability isn't more potent.
Playing the Vasari, I'm temtped to fill my Skirantras with fighters to eliminate any enemy bomber threat, and then just take along a few Junsurak Sentinels in the fleet to mop up the enemy's remaining fighters...
The Answer?
Strike Craft are rubbish. Completely rubbish.
Carrier Capitals are often good because of their other abilities yes - but in terms of the Strike Craft themselves, Hangars or especially Carrier-Cruisers, they are worthless.
In the Vasari's case, you're spending 14 Supply on a hugely expensive Carrier-Cruiser that only hosts 2 Strike Craft Squadrons. Even if you use those 2 Squadrons on a target they are good against (Like Bombers versus a Building) they still do less overall damage than even a single regular Frigate.
Remember, that 1 Frigate is roughly 1/3rd the cost too, not even counting the research cost of unlocking the Carrier Cruiser and all the Labs required prior.
Having a few Flak Frigates with your fleet is more than enough to deal with the tendency the AI has to spam a zillion Strike Craft. Even if you completely ignore the Strike Craft during battles, they dont make much of an impact and you can just go for the Carriers hosting them.
Fill up your own Capitals and Hangars with Fighters to counter enemy Strike Craft - as they deal decent damage to passing Trade Ships and other Scouting / Light vessels, but for the most part, dont go out of your way to really bother with massing Strike Craft yourself.
At my Planets, I put down several (2-4) Hangars and fill them with Fighters. They intercept any passing Trade Vessels or Scouts and help out during large-scale battles with some slight damage. I certainly dont rely on them though.
Properly positioned Turrets with Repair Bays are infinitely better. However, in the TEC's case since they can upgrade Hangars with Flak-Turrets, they also serve that function to a limited extent.
This is purely versus AI. I dont care for any 'competitive' human input where in online games you might be rushed 5 minutes into the game. I dont find that fun. I am not accounting for a human player's input on using Strike Craft versus a human player without Flak.
- - -
With a Fleet Supply of 900, I had 20 Cruiser-Carriers, plenty of LRM Frigates, 4 Capitals, my Titan, a small number of support cruisers (Subverters and Overseers) and a few Enforcers here and there.
Versus an opposing Vasari Loyalist Fleet that had half the number of overall Ships that I did, the huge horde of Strike Craft still failed to even make a dent in their numbers. They struggled to destroy even a couple of Ships even when the enemy had no Flak whatsoever.
Sitting at the edge of the Gravity Well with my Carriers, 30+ Bomber Squadrons still failed to even make a dent in the Shields of a Starbase or Titan, entirely focus-firing on them.
- - -
With that same 900 Fleet Supply invested into a well-balanced fleet including most Ships but NOT Carrier-Cruisers, I was easily able to steamroll even the biggest enemy opposition.
At the very least, even in a losing battle, I was able to inflict much more damage than I would have if I had wasted Fleet Supply on Carriers.
- - -
If anything, Strike Craft actually doubly enhance the survivability of enemy Ships in a large-scale engagement.
Not only are Strike Craft themselves relatively useles, even in huge numbers, dealing very little damage even against targets they are specially designed for (Bombers versus Cruisers, Structures, etc)
They make it worse by the fact that a Strike Craft Squadron usually has 3-9 members. Each one with its own attack. When attacking an enemy target, the number of attacks the target is receiving initiates a multiplier on the Shield Mitigation factor.
So very quickly, all those Strike Craft will push the target's Shield Mitigation factor up to its maximum, often around 65% or so. Which means 65% of all damage being dealt to the target is simply ignored and does nothing, as long as Shields are up.
Whereas if you only had 3 or 4 regular Frigates or Cruisers shooting the same target, the target's Shield Mitigation would sit somewhere around 30-40% instead, resulting in your own forces dealing more damage and depleting their Shields faster.
Shield Mitigation is a gameplay mechanic deliberately designed to nullify and mitigate the focus-firing effect of huge numbers of units versus 1 unit. It enables Capitals, Titans and Starbases in particular to survive the late-game huge swarms of units on both sides, at least, a lot longer than they would if Shield Mitigation didnt exist.
The thing is Frigate/Cruiser critical mass can be easily countered by Titan abilities or other abilities like Missile Barrage whereas there is no quick and easy counter for strikecraft critical mass.
As for the Ogrovs, Strikecraft are a key component of any starbases I build for just the reason of countering Ogrovs. I will keep my strikecraft docked and if I see Ogrovs or Solanus Adjudicators (Starfish) I'll deploy and destroy.
Antlucasexe, If you haven't already try playing as the Advent. Their ccarrier cruisers have 3 squadrons and one faction (can't recall if it's Loyalist or Rebel) can gain an ability that allows their carrier cruisers to take control of enemy mines, meaning all minefields in the game can be yours (a nice bonus on top of the 3 squads).
I agree with Venrez that Carrier Cruisers are a waste of space and, unless you're playing TEC with their flak upgrade, Hangar Defenses should probably be used quite sparingly as well. Strike-craft just feel quite incidental to me and it feels like focusing on them too much leaves you missing the real threat most of the time.
However, as WOEaintME points out, I haven't played Advent properly yet and I know they're the carrier specialists. Plus I do very much like Capital Carriers. So maybe the best strategy is to focus more on carriers and strike-craft if you're playing Advent, but not the other 2 races.
In fact, I've been playing the Vasari and so far it seems best to use mainly fighters (not bombers) with them to counter the enemies' strike-craft and then rely on your big hitters to do the rest of the work.
One thing I've noticed is that the Vasari are an excellent race to play if you want to micro-manage all your battles. They have so many abilities that can happily be left on auto-cast, or are passive, so they seem to require a lot less fiddling.
What are Vasari actually supposed to counter Structures with?
I am talking hardened defenses. Row upon row of Repair Bays, Hangar Defences, Turrets, Shield Bays, Nano Weapon Jammers, Starbases, etc.
The TEC and Advent were specifically given the Ogrov and Solanus anti-structure units for this purpose and they do very well at their job.
However, the Vasari dont have a "Siege" unit and it seems like they're forced to either sit back with Strike Craft (which is massively cost and time inefficient) or they just charge right in with their main fleet, which certainly results in massive losses even if you have a technological (research) and numerical advantage.
For instance, there was a TEC Starbase with lots of Repair Bays, Hangars and Gauss Turrets. If I sat back and sent in 30+ Bombers and 30+ Fighter squadrons, they completely failed to make a dent in any of the defences, maybe, if lucky, destroying 1 or 2 Repair Bays or Hangars after a considerable amount of time.
But if I were to just charge in with my huge, balanced fleet including numerous Capitals, fully levelled Titan, Cruisers, Frigates and ships of all different sorts, I'd sustain moderate losses.
So I dont really know what Vasari are supposed to do in this situation.
The Kostura Cannon used to do massive damage AND stun Orbital Structures and any fleet units in the gravity well - which filled this role of cracking hardenend defenses. However, the Kostura has since been smacked very hard with the nerf bat and it now only does slight damage 'only' to structures and stuns them for a very short space of time.
The +Phase Stabilizer benefit is not relevant in the point I am making.
It seems that over time, as we have been given new tech and new research, like Starbases, Minefields, Corvettes, Siege Cruisers and other new stuff - it seems like the Vasari really got the short end of the stick.
The TEC in particular are ~monstrously~ powerful late game, with unbreakable defenses and huge, cheap, mass-produced fleets with structure annihilating Ogrovs and an infinite economy.
The Advent are notorious for their stupid 'deathballs' where they group their entire fleet into a ball with Shield Spheres and that god awful Rebel Titan which can instantly annhilate an entire enemy fleet even if their regular forces dont do it. They also have nearly unstoppable culture.
But the Vasari are just... lacking. Especially in terms of breaking through heavy defenses, like the Starbase and all its supporting structures as I've mentioned. If the enemy has their fleet there too, then you might as well just forget about even trying.
Personally I like them because Kortul Devastators are one-ship wrecking machines and because your own territory is easy to defend against even large assaults because you can move your entire fleet to where it needs to be in very quick time.
Combine that with the 'Stripped to the Core' ability and you can literally starve your enemy of useable planets in their sector. Mwah ha ha haaaaaa!
The Vulkoras Desolator Capital ship is supposed to be their structure-buster, but personally I don't bother with them because the Kortuls are so powerful.
The Rankulas has anti structure nanites which act as the Vasari anti-structure units. The Orkulus also has anti-structure weapons as an upgrade (the Disintegrator). The Vulkoras has an ability which gives it bonus damage against structures although I wouldn't send a Vulkoras in to attack a starbase nor would I recommend it. Such is the price you pay for being able to deploy mines wherever you want it seems.